Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:22:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #514 - 19 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: 7 ft. (Dr. Daryl Covington) 2. RE: 7 ft. (Dr. Daryl Covington) 3. Chinese Hapkido (Ray Terry) 4. RE: Rubber knives = bad ide (Kirk Lawson) 5. RE: your my kind of minister (Donnelly, Eamonn) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Stats?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_legends_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido (Robert Martin) 10. Old Tyme Training with GM Timmerman... (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 11. Re: 'peacemaker' (Klaas Barends) 12. Hapkido_legends (Ray Terry) 13. Rubber knives still = bad idea (Ray Terry) 14. Hapkido vs. Aikido (Ray Terry) 15. Using 'live' blades (Troy Charsley) 16. Friends in the Dojang (Troy Charsley) 17. Re: Re: 'peacemaker' (Ray Terry) 18. Re: dan bong (Michael Whalen) 19. Re: Re: 'peacemaker' (eleusis) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:02:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: 7 ft. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK, 7 feet is close. But, is anyone willing to let someone stand, weapon in hand, finger on the trigger, 7 feet away, and try to "defend" against the pistol? I don't think so. Remember the gentleman on the list that said "If you won't do it with a live blade.....", I wonder how they practice Gun defense? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: 7 ft. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I said "Not close", I meant the "putting the pistol to the head" etc. kind of "Jackie Chan Movie" nonsense. I am afraid much of what many practice is to performed. But the same is true with all defenses. Its like learning to block punches that are thrown 12 inches from your head. Or, better yet, when some say "After you catch the punch, then....". My response is, COuld you demonstrate the "punch catch". Or, the "12 step program to defending a punch", like the blasting elbow set of Kenpo, which assumes that once a punch is thrown, the thrower of the punch will stand,punch extended and static, while the defender dances around striking various parts of the body. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:32:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Chinese Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Now if people would just take the time and effort to examine the postures > and methods of the Kwon Bup they would see that most of the DRAJJ material > was already in place in the MYTBTJ a couple of centuries before Choi and > his Japanese material. What is more, the various strains of Chinese Boxing > in Korean deserve as much recognition for their input into the Hapkido > arts as does DRAJJ. Where are you seeing this? Can you be more specific? What I see is more akin to the boxing jab of 100 years ago to the boxing jab of today. Not really related at all, totally different body mechanics. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:56:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rubber knives = bad ide Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Ray Terry > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:16:50 -0800 (PST) > Subject: [The_Dojang] Rubber knives = bad idea > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > As evidence, I present to you sport Fencing which has been > > dealing with > > this *exact* problem for centuries. > > I'd say that "sport" is the operative term here... Oh good grief. Not that old thing again? This is where we cue the music for the "sport fighter vs traditional martial artist" thread and a bunch of people get upset about how this or that isn't allowed in MMA, another group grumbles on about how the "fully resisting oponent" keeps it real, everyone argues and NO ONE ever gets convinced, and people get their noses out of joint. There's a bunch more to this rant but I deleted it as being 1) Too nose disjointing 2) Not worth the effort of the thread and the inexorable responses sure to follow. Good luck with what you're doing and wear lots of body protection. My favorite U.S. President, Teddy Roosevelt, lost eyesight in one eye from Singlesticking without the benefit of modern protective gear - he was an accomplished martial artist. Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Donnelly, Eamonn" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:39:42 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: your my kind of minister Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Snip If someone breaks into my home and hurts my family, and I do nothing about it, Im not a peacemaker, Im an idiot. I have let a criminal go free. On the other hand, if someone breaks into my home, and they die of lead poisoning from my .45, or .44, or .357, or .9 mm, or AR15, or which ever weapon I pick up, Then my family is safe, and society is as well. I just became a peacemaker. End Snip With respect, does anyone have any sources of information regarding incidents where "innocent" people are wounded/killed in a situation where people have felt threatened in their own property by an unidentified third person (e.g. child coming home late or unexpectedly etc.) NB I am not passing judgement on Dr. Daryl Covington's approach to defending his family and property or the steps taken by individuals to avoid just such an incident. Just curious to know if this has been or is a problem. Thanks Eamonn Confidentiality Note: The information in this electronic mail ("e-mail") message may be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by privilege, work product immunity or other applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient the retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this electronic mail ("e-mail") in error please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0) 24 7686 2000 or by e-mail at postmaster@cel-international.com. Thank you. Registered in England No. 3877626 Registered Office 256 Foleshill Road Coventry CV6 5AB --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:31:42 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Klaas: ".....Is/was it a common term, or did he actually 'invent' it?...." Of course, Ueyshibas' "Aikido" would have been the Japanese rendering of the same Chinese characters as "Hapkido" in Korean. In fact I seem to remember some Korean folks taking exception to the use of the term "Hapkido" for this very reason. I think GM Ji would be a good one to ask about this. As far as Ueyshiba goes he didn't actually start off with the term "Aikido" from what I have read in Stevens' and other books. However, it seems to be what he settled on after a while. He also modified his technique and his curriculum as time went on and that introduces another problem in that these arts we practice are never set in concrete where time and growth are concerned. Since Ueyshiba was already doing his thing in Japan in the 1930-s it IS possible that folks who went to Korea prior to and during the 2nd WW could have brought some of this material with them and passed it around for a few years. Even Choi was said to have visited back to Korea a few times before relocating after the War. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:34:54 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Stats?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: "......I would really appreciate it if you could give the citations for your statements below. I know I have heard these things before, but I would love to have the source material......" And while we are at it, does ANYBODY know where that stat about "90% of all fights wind up on the ground" came from?? I have looked all over and though it crops up like mushrooms over and over again I can't find a source. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:44:03 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_legends_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jesse: "......Yes, there are only certain ways the human body can strike, can bend, can be broken, but the formal Hapkido system most Hapkido arts teach was formalized by GM Ji HanJae. What's the problem?....." Whats the problem? The problem is that all your post did was confirm what I said earlier which is that folks who tout this particular line simply have not been keeping up on historical events. Your explanation makes no room for the other folks who taught Joo Bang Lee, In Hyuk Suh or even GM Ji when it comes to that. Your explanation makes no room for other traditions such as that posited by Moo Woong Kim and Sub Bok Suh. Your explanation makes no room for people who brought AJJ to Korea other than Choi such as Jang Im Mok. Your explanationb makes no room for other influential traditions such as the MYTBTJ or Chinese boxing traditions. Your explanation makes no room for later Choi adherents such at Lim, Hyun- soos' tradition. For myself I have no problem entertaining GM Ji as a contributor to the Hapkido arts, but I think other folks deserve credit where credit is due. Whats your investment in tunnel vision? Nobody says that you can't worship at the GM of your choice. Lets just not pretend that he is the only legit game in town, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:07:25 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As an aside: If I remember correctly, Choi Hong Hi used GM Ji's Hapkido as the basis of the ITF ho sin sul. Many of the techniques demonstrated in Choi's encyclopedia resembles the Hapkido that I have seen. Robert Martin --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:09:30 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Tyme Training with GM Timmerman... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have just returned from GM Timmerman's "Old Tyme" Training Session. I had an incredible experience. We literally trained all day, day after day with breaks for meals and drinks (3 days in my case, I came early and left to host my seminar this weekend). I learned a tremendous amount of techniques and received one on one attention from GM Timmerman's senior students, who are tremendously skilled, dedicated, friendly and helpful. In additional GM Timmerman personally demonstrated all the techniques and made sure each student could both perform the techniques and see what they felt like! The whole experience had an intense bonding/team build emphasis, with such older concepts as the group sleeping on the dojang floor and GM Timmerman carrying around a Shinai to give you on the spot "percussion" correction. Not to mention the leadership development course, and the training the beach & in Lake Huron (done on Saturday). I'm anxiously looking forward to the next 4 sessions throughout the year! It was truly great to see quality Masters, Black Belts, and Students put on white belts and train in earnest for the sole purpose of learning and growing. I'll report more as I go through the other sessions, but it truly was an awesome experience, or as my partner/uke said when he got back, "It was a life altering experience, that was totally positive from start to finish!" (Of course, he's an 8th Gup and hasn't had time to experience stints of pain over the long term ;) ). I'd like to publicly thank GM Timmerman, SBN Janisse, SBN Keatley, GM Timmerman's Sr. Student and the other members of the program who were extremely supportive and helpful and I tried to learn the Hapkido and softer techniques! If GM Timmerman offers this program again next year, I'd highly recommend it. Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Klaas Barends Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:23:45 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If someone breaks into my home and hurts my family, and I do nothing > about it, Im not a peacemaker, Im an idiot. I have let a criminal go > free. On the other hand, if someone breaks into my home, and they die > of lead poisoning from my .45, or .44, or .357, or .9 mm, or AR15, or > which ever weapon I pick up, Then my family is safe, and soceity is as > well. I just became a peacemaker. Yes, and when one of your kids picks up the weapon and shoots another kid ...... Guns aren't the solution. Since I live in the Netherlands where you have to go through a lot of paper work to get a gun, we don't have the same problems as you have in the U.S. My advice to the U.S. government would be to place more restrictions on weapon possesion. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:24:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido_legends Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "......Yes, there are only certain ways the human body can strike, can bend, > can be broken, but the formal Hapkido system most Hapkido arts teach was > formalized by GM Ji HanJae. What's the problem?....." > > Whats the problem? > The problem is that all your post did was confirm what I said earlier > which is that folks who tout this particular line simply have not been > keeping up on historical events. [snip] It is a simple case of numbers. Sure there are a few others that have influenced Hapkido. But look at 90% (or more?) of the Hapkido that we see around the world. Like it/him or not, it comes down through Gm Ji. It is good to not lose the fact that some small % of Hapkido comes from sources other than Takeda-Choi-Ji, but you seem to always want to focus on the minority % rather than the vast majority. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:26:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Rubber knives still = bad idea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Good luck with what you're doing and wear lots of body protection. Body protection is not needed. A pair of racquetball glasses is all we've ever used. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:37:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido vs. Aikido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Of course, Ueyshibas' "Aikido" would have been the Japanese rendering of > the same Chinese characters as "Hapkido" in Korean. In fact I seem to > remember some Korean folks taking exception to the use of the > term "Hapkido" for this very reason. I think GM Ji would be a good one to > ask about this. > > As far as Ueyshiba goes he didn't actually start off with the > term "Aikido" from what I have read in Stevens' and other books. However, > it seems to be what he settled on after a while. He also modified his > technique and his curriculum as time went on and that introduces another > problem in that these arts we practice are never set in concrete where > time and growth are concerned. Since Ueyshiba was already doing his thing > in Japan in the 1930-s it IS possible that folks who went to Korea prior > to and during the 2nd WW could have brought some of this material with > them and passed it around for a few years. Even Choi was said to have > visited back to Korea a few times before relocating after the War. FWIW. We have some Aikido people here. Please share... Didn't Ueshiba call his art aiki-jutsu then aiki-budo then aikido? As I recall he switched to aikido right before or right after Takeda's death...??? I have an old tape of him teaching and demoing aikibudo. Strange to see him as a young thick-set powerful man instead of the little dried up old man one usually sees in his pics. I believe Dr. Kimm has an accounting of the Aikido-Hapkido-Kido-Hapkido story in one of this Hapkido bibles. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Troy Charsley" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:09:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Using 'live' blades Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Question: Has anyone ever discussed the practise of using 'live' blades with their insurance agents, or with lawyers with regards to liability risks? I for one appreciate the use of live blades in practise, but I'm concerned about the implications when an 'accident' happens (so I stick to rubber knives). How do you limit your liability? Our club contracts have in statements that try to limit liability by identifying our practice as a 'contact sport' and that the student accepts the risk of injury associated with the 'sport'. I wonder if the courts would consider the use of potentially 'dangerous' weapons as part of the sport? Something to think about... Regards, Troy Charsley --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Troy Charsley" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:48:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Friends in the Dojang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with Mr. Zaruba and Mr. Richards, making friendships while training with people is inevitable. People that are willing to go the distance, 'suffer' through the gruelling workouts, never give up, show respect and self-discipline, are 'worthy' for me to consider friends. Friendships are formed out of respect and discipline. Of course the rules of the dojang must be followed. Once you're on the floor, there is no talk of what your going do for the weekend or how good the latest movie was. All discussion is on the training at hand. The 'personal' aspect of the friendships is kept outside the dojang. I view martial arts training not just as physical and mental training, but as a way building a stronger community. The friendships made in the dojang help strengthen that community. I try to encourage my students to be involved in the community or in their schools, to use the 'discipline' taught in the dojang to help others and to help others help others. Would I consider my friends of dojang (students) my drinking buddies? Probably not. But I certainly consider many of them friends. My Opinion Best Regards, Troy Charsley --__--__-- Message: 17 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:55:10 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Yes, and when one of your kids picks up the weapon and shoots another > kid ...... A very rare occurrence, even in this country of 285 million people. But in the rare event in does occur you hear about it within mins on CNN. > Guns aren't the solution. I agree. Guns are just a tool, another piece of safety equipment, they aren't "the" solution. They are just part of the solution. > Since I live in the Netherlands where you have to go through a lot of > paper work to get a gun, we don't have the same problems as you have in > the U.S. You have different problems. Each country and culture does... > My advice to the U.S. government would be to place more restrictions on > weapon possesion. No thanks. Then you have the problem of the old, weak and small not being able to defend themselves properly even within their own homes. Don't take this wrong, but myself... I'd rather live in a free country. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 18 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:32:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: dan bong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >"...The definition of a dan bong is 12inch by 1 inch in diameter but there >is quite a bit of room for variance." I make mine to fit each individual since one that might work well with a big gentleman with large hands is going to be difficult for say, a small woman with shorter fingers. Length is the distance from crook in elbow to bent wrist. Diameter is first two fingers wrapped around with thumb overlapping slightly. I also make the ends slightly wider so that both ends taper towards the middle. (This helps your grip especially with sweaty hands) michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 19 From: "eleusis" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:29:42 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "My advice to the U.S. government would be to place more restrictions on weapon possesion." More regulation isn't the answer, more enforcement is. Unlike the Netherlands we in the USA have a Constitution which protects our right to keep our weapons. That right puts weapons owning on par with the right to free speech and pursuit of any or no religion. You'd have to be American to understand. Weapons help ensure the government stays honest and has helped us maintain our Republic. ----- Original Message ----- From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:23 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' > If someone breaks into my home and hurts my family, and I do nothing > about it, Im not a peacemaker, Im an idiot. I have let a criminal go > free. On the other hand, if someone breaks into my home, and they die > of lead poisoning from my .45, or .44, or .357, or .9 mm, or AR15, or > which ever weapon I pick up, Then my family is safe, and soceity is as > well. I just became a peacemaker. Yes, and when one of your kids picks up the weapon and shoots another kid ...... Guns aren't the solution. Since I live in the Netherlands where you have to go through a lot of paper work to get a gun, we don't have the same problems as you have in the U.S. My advice to the U.S. government would be to place more restrictions on weapon possesion. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest