Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 04:22:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #515 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. This thing called Hapkido (Patrick L) 2. RE: Old Tyme Training with GM Timmerman... Corrections to message. (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 3. MuYeToBoTongJ and Gumsul (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 4. RE: Guns US-EU basic difference of view points (andrew pratt) 5. Vol 10 #509 - 9 msgs knee operation (Chella) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_credit_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Re: RE: Guns US-EU basic difference of view points (Ray Terry) 8. Yet more knife stuff...and gun defense. (Eric Walker) 9. Re: 'peacemaker' (Sean O'Brien) 10. Waiting periods between belt tests (owll) 11. Re: Re: Hapkido credit (John Frankl) 12. Break in (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 13. Re: Hapkido vs. Aikido (John Frankl) 14. Re: Re: Stats (John Frankl) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:15:53 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] This thing called Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims wrote ... >3.) If the people in positions of power were half as worried about teaching a valid Korean martial curriculum they would spend a helluva lot more time studying works like the MYTBTJ< As a Hapkidoist, I am interested in teaching Hapkido - the best Hapkido I can. I don't give fig if it is validated by Korean works of arguable Korean martial curriculum like the MYTBTJ. Let me be the first to say it publicly - the MYTBTJ is a waste of time to anyone interested in teaching/learning Hapkido . . . er any Hapkido except perhaps Mr. Sim's that is. Hapkido circa 1940/50 began as an alternative concept, inclusive and dynamic. The resulting difficulty in establishing a absolute curriculum should not be construed as carte-blanche by any martial Ne'er-do-well to tinker. Getting in the Way, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Save your conversations with Messenger 6.1. Get it FREE! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Old Tyme Training with GM Timmerman... Corrections to message. Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:24:37 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry My send key went off a little too early, needed to correct some typo's additions/corrections will be in CAPS. I have just returned from GM Timmerman's "Old Tyme" Training Session. I had an incredible experience. We literally trained all day, day after day with breaks for meals and drinks (3 days in my case, I came HOME early and left to host my seminar this weekend). I learned a tremendous amount of techniques and received one on one attention from GM Timmerman's senior students, who are tremendously skilled, dedicated, friendly and helpful. In additional GM Timmerman personally demonstrated all the techniques and made sure each student could both perform the techniques and see what they felt like! The whole experience had an intense bonding/team buildING emphasis, with such older concepts as the group sleeping on the dojang floor and GM Timmerman carrying around a Shinai to give you on the spot "percussion" correction. Not to mention the leadership development course, and the training the beach AND WADING inTO Lake Huron (done on Saturday). I'm anxiously looking forward to the next 4 sessions throughout the year! It was truly great to see quality Masters, Black Belts, and Students put on white belts and train in earnest for the sole purpose of learning and growing. I'll report more as I go through the other sessions, but it truly was an awesome experience, or as my partner/uke said when he got back, "It was a life altering experience, that was totally positive from start to finish!" (Of course, he's an 8th Gup and hasn't had time to experience stints of pain over the long term ;) ). I'd like to publicly thank GM Timmerman, SBN Janisse, SBN Keatley, GM Timmerman's Sr. StudentS and the other members of the program who were extremely supportive and helpful WHILE I tried to learn Hapkido and softer techniques! If GM Timmerman offers this program again next year, I'd highly recommend it. Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:22:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MuYeToBoTongJ and Gumsul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A couple of comments Bruce: First, there is nothing wrong with Japanese sword work and calling it what it is. I actually prefer it to the Korean versions (I have zero knowledge on sport style weapons). But even the Koreans call it a waegum (Japanese sword) and have a section of it in the MYTBTJ (many other styles of KMA have represented it that way for a long time). Although I must confess, after watching the tape of the MYTBTJ, neither the sword, nor form were very Japanese. I have also known some fine Korean nationals, very good at yudo, and they taught both the Korean and Japanese terms and made their students aware of the differences. As far as Okinawa weapons, I must agree. Only to the point that they have very little 'real' world application other than getting you into legal trouble for carrying them. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com 13.) If the people in positions of power were half as worried about teaching a valid Korean martial curriculum they would pend a helluva lot more time studying works like the MYTBTJ and a lot less time arguing for why the stuff they are lifting from Japanese traditions is REALLY Korean to start with. I get just a little tired of folks teaching Kendo and representing it as "Korean" swordwork when it is possible to study documented Korean swordwork if it wasn't so very inconvenient for these same people. The same goes for teaching Okinawan staff as Korean Chang Bong, nunchukas as Korean Flail, Japanese Shotokan as Taekwondo and Judo as Korean Yudo. The Korean never needed the Japanese to teach them to fight. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: andrew pratt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:34:10 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Guns US-EU basic difference of view points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray, You wrote: > >> My advice to the U.S. government would be to place more restrictions >> on weapon possesion. No thanks. Then you have the problem of the old, weak and small not being able to defend themselves properly even within their own homes. Don't take this wrong, but myself... I'd rather live in a free country. < Sorry, I have to agree with Klaus, I would rather live in a gun-free country. In what way does the state removing a deadly firearm from public circulation (where any common criminal can kill his victim -go read your crime statistics) make us any less free? The only freedom I see that the US has gained from having a gun culture is the freedom to fear thy neighbour. Respectively, Andrew --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Chella" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:04:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Vol 10 #509 - 9 msgs knee operation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gaye, First of all, good luck and speedy recovery on your surgery. I just went through a similar procedure. I had my ACL reconstructed(donor graft, at 40, my parts are too old, I guess !), a lateral meniscectomy and medial meniscal repair on September 23rd. My injury happened August 16th as I was training for my E Dan testing. (Hopefully I'll be ready for next year !!) The last move of Pyung Ahn Sam Dan did my knee in. (I'm a TSD'er !) At this point, I am about 8 weeks post surgery. I just started PT last week. Due to the meniscal repair, I haven't been allowed any weight bearing since the surgery. I hope to be off crutches by mid-December. With 2 sessions of PT, I was able to do complete rotations on the bike !! It was very exciting ! I believe being in shape from training has and will continue to help me fully recover from this injury, as I'm sure it'll help you. The first week and a half were the worst for me. Keep up with your pain medication. I tried to come off it too early and soon found out I didn't need to try and be a hero. The hardest part for me has been NOT being able to do what I love. It's been 3 months :-( I still go to the dojang 3 times a week and I watch class intently with hopes on keeping my mind sharp. My doc says " No karate for one year", but I'll be back(gently) much before that! I'll be sending lots of positive thoughts and energy your way. Be well. Chella cav5312@hvc.rr.com > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 01:48:56 -0800 (PST) > From: Gaye Terzioglu > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] knee operation > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Greetings one and all, > > Reading all the wisdom and appreciating the value of information passed onto each other here. Thank you once again. > > I am having an athroscopic knee reconstruction tomorrow. I have torn my MCL and also fully ruptured ACL it seems. I wanted to ask you all if you have or know someone who has had such an operation in the recent years and if so how long it took before they were on the mats fully functional again. Any information shared on this, suggestions, warnings welcome. I am not really looking forward to it but it needs to be done if I want to have my right leg functional again. It has never been 100% throughout my volleyball years in the league anyways but still, knowing there will be caps and screws in your knee is just not the best source of enthusiasm by any means. > > Hope all is well, I would much appreciate some positive energies sent my way (just in thoughts) :) Just down to the southern hemisphere, address: Sydney. *smile* Thanks. > > Respectfully, > > Gaye > > > > Gaye Terzioglu > "Most problems can be solved by making decisions" > > -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:55:08 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_credit_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....It is good to not lose the fact that some small % of Hapkido comes from sources other than Takeda-Choi-Ji, but you seem to always want to focus on the minority % rather than the vast majority....." Fair enough. OK, LETS' take a look at that. Lets suppose that the overwhelming majority of practitioners follow a tradition related to GM Ji. Fine. You just finished asking me how I could see Hapkido material in the MYTBTJ. I might as easily ask how you could NOT see it. Do you actually READ the book or do you just go through and look at the pictures? And what exactly has GM Ji contributed enlightening we KMA practitioners about this bit of Korean culture? Lets suppose that we take Jesses' tunnel vision and focus only on GM Ji and what GM Ji says and what GM Ji does. Its not as though he has left us many books illuminating Korean martial history as Dr. Kimm has done. And its not as though he has catalogued his material in book and video as GM Myung, Kwang Sik has done. And its not as though he did much to reach out to the Aikido practitioners in Japan as Myung Jae Nam has done. And its not like he organized a Mu-Do approach to the Hapkido arts like Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh have done---- as well as leaving behind a well structured society. So other than training under Choi Yong Sul and incorporating kicks into what little he had learned in his vast few years with Choi (what was it? 5 years? As much as that, huh?) something that Moo Woong Kim has as much claim to, what exactly is it that GM Ji contributed to the Hapkido arts? In short, Ray, there may be hundreds of thousands who think GM Ji can walk on water, but for myself I could almost care about someone whose sole claim to fame is that he is popular and a well- known name. At least the "minorities" I dwell on have actually DONE something to leave the Hapkido arts better for having been through this life. Other than simply trading on his name recognition what is it that GM Ji has done thats been so great? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Guns US-EU basic difference of view points To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:58:11 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > No thanks. Then you have the problem of the old, weak and small not being > able to defend themselves properly even within their own homes. > > Don't take this wrong, but myself... I'd rather live in a free country. > < > > Sorry, I have to agree with Klaus, I would rather live in a gun-free > country. In what way does the state removing a deadly firearm from public > circulation (where any common criminal can kill his victim -go read your > crime statistics) make us any less free? The only freedom I see that the US > has gained from having a gun culture is the freedom to fear thy neighbour. You lost me on the crime stats part. Studies (Kleck et al) show us just how frequently legally owned firearms are used to protect against crime. 2.5 million times each year, as I recall. On the free part... well, people will value and view freedom differently. But I know I wish -more- of my neighbors and friends were firearms owners. Then my neighborhood, city and state would be a safer place to live and work. Yet it is their choice to not own, while it is my choice to own. I cannot force them to go out and buy a weapon for our mutual defense and they cannot force me to give mine up. That is freedom... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:47:47 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Yet more knife stuff...and gun defense. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dr. Covington wrote: "OK, 7 feet is close. But, is anyone willing to let someone stand, weapon in hand, finger on the trigger, 7 feet away, and try to "defend" against the pistol? I don't think so. Remember the gentleman on the list that said "If you won't do it with a live blade.....", I wonder how they practice Gun defense?" ---With all due respect sir, I didn't say that, I simply asked who practiced in that manner. My instructor, Master Gary Toth is the originator of this quote; I only posted what he said. I do believe that what he's saying is true, but some of this is being taken the wrong way. This stuff isn't being taught to beginners, and we don't practice with a live blade all the time. However even though I'm a lowly 1st gup, I must agree with Mr. Terry that rubber knives=bad. There is no consequence for the way in which you execute technique. I don't know you from Adam, so perhaps you have faced someone that intended to do you harm with a gun or knife, however I would say if someone brings a gun to the knife fight with me he'd better shoot me from a good 15 feet off or further, because I'll do my damnedest to get in real close. I'll give you an update on how the gun defense goes since that will be coming along before too long. Mr. Terry wrote: "No thanks. Then you have the problem of the old, weak and small not being able to defend themselves properly even within their own homes. Don't take this wrong, but myself... I'd rather live in a free country." ---I second that! With respect, Eric --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:40:48 +1000 From: "Sean O'Brien" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The whole bleh about constitutional right to bear arms... Because some people 200+ years wrote it on a piece of paper makes it beyond question ? Times change, countries change, technology changes. Why can't a document ? Its not like a kid could accidentally pick up a weapon of the day back then load it and fire it (there was nothing accidental about firearms 200 years ago). Now a kid can pick up what looks like a toy and splat half a room and not even realize what they have done. More to the point wasn't the whole purpose of that clause based around how the US came to be... ie. out of an uprising against the Poms. The actual text is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the rights of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Isn't it ? Now I guess the word militia is one important important bit. Is militia an old word for what today would be called the national guard or reserves ? or does it mean random individuals or better yet vigilante posse's ? Thus individuals have the constitutional right to dispense justice as they see fit ? The second important bit is they only have the right in reference to keeping the state secure. Not for sport shooting, not for personal protection, not property/livestock protection, soley "security of a free State". ie. if some group or government tried to make the US some form of non-free state. So the easy way around it I guess is ok .. its legal to own arms, but make it illegal to point, discharge or threaten to use one at a person unless you are in a nominated service (police, military etc which more then likely are covered by the second option) or if you are defending the security of the nation. And perhaps make it only legal to bear arms from the time of the constitution being written and put everything else under ban or heavy regulation. And forgetting that whole constitutional side for a second. Introducing a gun or any weapon into a situation surely heightens aggression ? I thought the first thing to do in a self defence situation was hands up, oepn and facing out ... don't appear threatening (as a side benefit they are basically in the same place as a fighting stance but the open hands gives it a whole different appearance), ie. de-escelate the situation ? ie. don't go into some deep traditional stance clench your fists and kihap before screaming out to your ancestors in korean. Or atleast thats what we've been taught (perhaps with a little less tongue in cheek :p). Not to mention unless you know how to use it, and are willing to use it to kill someone, then bringing a firearm into the situation could quite easily give the aggressor that firearm. Then you have the whole how do you store it question. If its nice and secure how do you get it when you need it (you probably can't), and if its not then see kids and thieves for other uses. Here in Australia after some nutter went on a shooting spree down in Tasmania, they banned anything that could be modified to automatic and brought in a bunch of other regulations. And despite the twisted statistics the rifle association here seems to be able to bring up (see Mark Twains comment about statistics) crime involving firearms is down (as shown by a differing set of statistics ... handy things those statisticcs). Now they use knives, machettes, bats, nunchuks etc etc but atleast they seem on the whole to be a lot less lethal. The country didn't turn into a cess pit of criminals as was suggested in some quarters before it happened. And before anyone wheels out me being anti patriotic or any of that line of crud. I am an Australian and served have served in the Army. And I am not anti gun either, I am an ex member of a small bore shooting club and a skeet shooting club, and thanks to the army have shot everything from 155mm medium artillery to bb guns (with the most fun being Charlie-G). I am just anti having them at home and anti pretending they are a solution for any form of personal security. Out of interest any of pro gun Americans tried testing out America's constititional right to bear arms at an US airport ? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "owll" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:02:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Waiting periods between belt tests Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net we test every 3 months, sometimes, if i feel my children aren't ready we wait the 6 months. Bruce 2 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido credit Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:14:15 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I can tell you one thing he has done most recently. I saw him not four days ago teaching a 3-day seminar at a local dojang. Unfortunately, he also awarded the owner of that dojang a 7th dan, eventhough said instructor has only been at Hapkido a little over a decade. Oh well. John >From: >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido credit >Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:55:08 -0600 (CST) > >Dear Ray: > >".....It is good to not lose the fact that some small % of Hapkido comes >from >sources other than Takeda-Choi-Ji, but you seem to always want to focus >on the minority % rather than the vast majority....." > >Fair enough. OK, LETS' take a look at that. > >Lets suppose that the overwhelming majority of practitioners follow a >tradition related to GM Ji. Fine. You just finished asking me how I could >see Hapkido material in the MYTBTJ. I might as easily ask how you could >NOT see it. Do you actually READ the book or do you just go through and >look at the pictures? And what exactly has GM Ji contributed enlightening >we KMA practitioners about this bit of Korean culture? > >Lets suppose that we take Jesses' tunnel vision and focus only on GM Ji >and what GM Ji says and what GM Ji does. Its not as though he has left us >many books illuminating Korean martial history as Dr. Kimm has done. And >its not as though he has catalogued his material in book and video as GM >Myung, Kwang Sik has done. And its not as though he did much to reach out >to the Aikido practitioners in Japan as Myung Jae Nam has done. And its >not like he organized a Mu-Do approach to the Hapkido arts like Joo Bang >Lee and In Hyuk Suh have done---- as well as leaving behind a well >structured society. So other than training under Choi Yong Sul and >incorporating kicks into what little he had learned in his vast few years >with Choi (what was it? 5 years? As much as that, huh?) something that Moo >Woong Kim has as much claim to, what exactly is it that GM Ji contributed >to the Hapkido arts? In short, Ray, there may be hundreds of thousands >who think GM Ji can walk on water, but for myself I could almost care >about someone whose sole claim to fame is that he is popular and a well- >known name. At least the "minorities" I dwell on have actually DONE >something to leave the Hapkido arts better for having been through this >life. Other than simply trading on his name recognition what is it that GM >Ji has done thats been so great? > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 12 From: To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:05:38 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Break in Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I'm going to enjoy watching my dog have fun. Randall Sexton --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido vs. Aikido Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:22:09 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All good information Ray. Another interesting yet little mentioned part of Ueshiba's background--mostly due to the post facto hippie-ization of Aikido--is that he was an ardent militarist. He used to hang from tree limbs trying to stretch his body an extra centimeter or two; it seems poor Morihei was just too darn short for the Japanese Imperial Army, and thus excluded from all the fun they were having in Korea and China. In short, he wanted very much to be part of the raping and killing on the continent, but the government didn't see him as soldier material. Funny that the peace and love crowd chooses to ignore this. John >From: Ray Terry >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido vs. Aikido >Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:37:17 -0800 (PST) > > > Of course, Ueyshibas' "Aikido" would have been the Japanese rendering of > > the same Chinese characters as "Hapkido" in Korean. In fact I seem to > > remember some Korean folks taking exception to the use of the > > term "Hapkido" for this very reason. I think GM Ji would be a good one to > > ask about this. > > > > As far as Ueyshiba goes he didn't actually start off with the > > term "Aikido" from what I have read in Stevens' and other books. However, > > it seems to be what he settled on after a while. He also modified his > > technique and his curriculum as time went on and that introduces another > > problem in that these arts we practice are never set in concrete where > > time and growth are concerned. Since Ueyshiba was already doing his thing > > in Japan in the 1930-s it IS possible that folks who went to Korea prior > > to and during the 2nd WW could have brought some of this material with > > them and passed it around for a few years. Even Choi was said to have > > visited back to Korea a few times before relocating after the War. FWIW. > >We have some Aikido people here. Please share... > >Didn't Ueshiba call his art aiki-jutsu then aiki-budo then aikido? As I >recall he switched to aikido right before or right after Takeda's death...??? > >I have an old tape of him teaching and demoing aikibudo. Strange to see >him as a young thick-set powerful man instead of the little dried up old >man one usually sees in his pics. > >I believe Dr. Kimm has an accounting of the Aikido-Hapkido-Kido-Hapkido >story in one of this Hapkido bibles. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Stats Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:27:23 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Point below well taken, Bruce. It is hardly hard statistics. On the other hand, it is not difficult to say that enough fights wind up there that one ignores ground fighting at one's own peril. And, further, that most of the so-called "grappling" in Hapkido/Kuk Sool Won/Hwarang-do is a total joke.   John >And while we are at it, does ANYBODY know where that stat about "90% of >all fights wind up on the ground" came from?? I have looked all over and >though it crops up like mushrooms over and over again I can't find a >source. > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest