Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:22:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #516 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE(2): your my kind of minister (Jonathan D. Payne) 2. Old Time Training (Rudy Timmerman) 3. "Peacemaker" (Brooke Thomas) 4. Re:_Hapkido_credit (Ray Terry) 5. Student/Friend (Lois Knorr) 6. Stats on ending up on the ground (Bernard Redfield) 7. Re: Who taught Lee,joo bang (Beungood@aol.com) 8. Re: Impacting Hapkido (Beungood@aol.com) 9. Re: Giving credit (Beungood@aol.com) 10. Re: Gun Restrictions (Beungood@aol.com) 11. RE: Stats (Kirk Lawson) 12. RE: Re: 'peacemaker' (Kirk Lawson) 13. Re: "Peacemaker" (Ray Terry) 14. Re: Re: 'peacemaker' (Ray Terry) 15. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_Ground_work_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 16. RE: Guns US-EU basic difference of view points (Lasich, Mark D.) 17. 90% Ground Rule (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Jonathan D. Payne" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:49:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE(2): your my kind of minister Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>With respect, does anyone have any sources of information regarding incidents where "innocent" people are wounded/killed in a situation where people have felt threatened in their own property by an unidentified third person (e.g. child coming home late or unexpectedly etc.)>> >>NB I am not passing judgment on Dr. Daryl Covington's approach to defending his family and property or the steps taken by individuals to avoid just such an incident. Just curious to know if this has been or is a problem.>> Why would you want to know how many innocents are killed by gun owners? Will you also research the number killed by backyard pools and drunk drivers? These are all problems, which is more important pools, drunks, or guns? These are the rules gun owners who want to carry concealed weapons are taught. Be aware of your target. If you don't know what it is don't shoot. If you can't identify the threat, don't shoot. You must identify your target and what is beyond your target. You are responsible for where your bullet stops. Of course the NRA can give you a booklet that has all of the gun handling rules listed. There are several magazines from the NRA that list examples of guns being used lawfully to save the lives and property of the innocents. All of the incidents are taken from local newspapers. For some reason you never seem to see this type of coverage on CNN or MSNBC Jon David Payne Gun Owner Martial Artist --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:54:21 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Time Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd like to I thank Master Thomas for his kind words, and I applaud him and the rest of the group for their dedication and willingness to train for the sake of training alone. When I made the offer to accept ten personal students, I wanted to make sure that these folks would not include any who were out to pad their credentials without leaving some serious sweat in my Dojang; hence I insisted on having them wear white belts. In addition to the usual "wax on wax off" stuff I ask my students to do, the group was expected to sleep in the Dojang, run our challenge course the day after the worst snow blizzard to hit Northern ONT and the UP since the Fitzgerald went down (this year's storm took out ten full grown Spruce trees at my home), climb a 12 foot wall, and actually break ice to find open water to swim in. You can see that I was reasonably sure I would attract a pretty good group of folks who were interested in serious training:) I would like to thank Masters Trudeau, DeWitt, Thomas, and Orndorff; PSNs Keppers, Wojan, and Coleman; KSN Milks; and JKNs Kat, Chris, and John; as well as their students Jenny and Phillip for their dedication and trust. Together, I call this group the dirty dozen, because I have never seen a group more into inflicting pain on one another than this one:) I appreciate you all giving me the opportunity to teach martial arts the way I was taught, and a whole week of 12 to 14 hour days of hard teaching made me a happy man. I am glad to hear you all made it home safe. I also like to thank my students Kevin Janisse, Lorne Keatly, Ronda Bourdage, Bob Clement, Jason Maville, Tim Gregorini, and Manfred Fisher and for their help, you gave me the opportunity to spend more "one on one" time with the group. I congratulate KSNs Kat Kelly, Brenda Lloyd, and Chris Demanaeus on their promotion to 2nd dahn. BTW folks, I am sorry for not taking care of emails etc. while I conducted this old time training camp. Please know that I was not ducking the question of my rank, I was just too busy taking care of a dozen eager martial artists who wanted to experience some old time training. With a week's worth of emails to catch up on, I'll get to answering your inquiry SAP Ray. Hope you understand. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "Peacemaker" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Selling "News" is an interesting thing, isn't it? When a bad guy breaks into a home to steal/hurt/rape the innocent...and the innocent pull out their legally obtained/registered firearm and air-condition the bad guy, you really don't see that reported on the front pages like you would some untrained clod who blasts himself or his wife/kids while cleaning a loaded weapon. Man bites dog will always(!) sell better than dog bites man. Syndicated radio talk show host Larry Elder conducted a series of shows on gun statistics and it was interesting to find out that there really aren't ANY statistics related to how often guns were used to successfully defend victims or prevent crime. Yes, guns in the hands of kids is tragic and hopefully technology (grip memory, encoded rings, fingerprints, etc) will catch up with this problem quickly. And please, lets enforce the laws that we already have on the books before we start making up new ones. Home invasion robberies are fairly common in the Los Angeles area. I may have a hard time taking out 2-3 armed guys with my CaneMaster professional at 3AM but I just might have a little better odds defending my life and my family with my pump action 12 gauge. -Brooke Thomas (gun realist not gun nut) --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:52:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_Hapkido_credit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Lets suppose that the overwhelming majority of practitioners follow a > tradition related to GM Ji. Fine. You just finished asking me how I could > see Hapkido material in the MYTBTJ. I might as easily ask how you could > NOT see it. I'm still waiting to hear exactly where you see it. Nothing yet. And please don't point out a simple arm bar, but things that are central and unique to the art we know today as Hapkido. > Do you actually READ the book or do you just go through and > look at the pictures? And what exactly has GM Ji contributed enlightening > we KMA practitioners about this bit of Korean culture? Ummm, nothing... Good Lord, besides you... who cares?!? Again you seem to think that everyone is missing the boat by not feeling as you do. It is a book about Chinese martial arts that just happened to be published in Korea. Other than that it is of little real interest to 95% of KMAists, including me. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp? Will a thorough study of that book make my breakfalls better or my kicks more effective? No. > ... what exactly is it that GM Ji contributed > to the Hapkido arts? Well, in your case he taught your instructor. For most others, he taught their instructor or their instructor's instructor or ... For all of us his influence, primarily, made it the art known around the world as Hapkido. > life. Other than simply trading on his name recognition what is it that GM > Ji has done thats been so great? Same as above... gave Hapkido to the vast majority of us. Continues to teach Hapkido to all that will take the time. Beyond that, what more is there that really matters? Little to nothing. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:07:03 -0500 (EST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Student/Friend Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I come from the other side of the coin. I have been a member of a Taekwondo school for over two years, struggling to remain a student (in the traditional sense). One day (about 4-6 months into my training), my instructor was showing us a self-defense move. He noticed a huge bruise on the back of my hand and that day I lost an instructor and gained a friend. I come from a traditional karate background and expected to be shown no mercy in the dojang, regardless of relationships outside the dojang. I have come to accept that if I am to train under my instructor, it has to be on his terms, rather than mine. Since I really admire his spirit and dedication to his art, I continue to train in his dojang. Rudy Timmerman has pointed out the necessity of accommodating a wide variety of students, each of whom train for their own reasons. I recognize that classes geared to the "do or die" attitude which I love are not conducive to keeping students (which keeps the dojang functioning). I read with envy comments on the Dojang Digest about seminars from which the participants leave bruised but happy. IMNSHO, I think it really depends on the instructor and student. The instructor needs to be able to be objective in the dojang in order to be an effective teacher and the student/friend needs to submit to the training and discipline given to him "on the mat". If either cannot succeed in separating student from friend then the result is lost friendship and/or poor training. Consistency is also important. If the instructor who has a friendly relationship with his students in the dojang, suddenly becomes the traditional master, he leaves the students feeling frustrated and angry. On the other hand, an instructor who usually expects students to treat him with traditional respect will confuse his students if he sporadically becomes their buddy. I guess the student-instructor relationship is like every other relationship: it involves two unpredictable factors -- human beings :) . Lois Knorr --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:08:43 -0500 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Stats on ending up on the ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<<<< And while we are at it, does ANYBODY know where that stat about "90% of all fights wind up on the ground" came from?? I have looked all over and though it crops up like mushrooms over and over again I can't find a source.>>> Well Bruce, I don't know about the Stats, but my time bouncing I can tell you yes definately most fights end up on the ground that I have had to break up, I could honestly say the last 10 or so I can remember this year alone all ended up on the ground, a few just because the guy winning was on the loser and still pounding away. sometimes they get tangled and fall and just don't stop. Bernard --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:23:02 -0500 From: Beungood@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Who taught Lee,joo bang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/18/2003 7:22:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > explanation makes no room for the other folks who taught > Joo Bang > Lee, In Hyuk Suh Grandmaster Ji taught them! --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:25:18 -0500 From: Beungood@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Impacting Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/18/2003 7:22:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Your explanation makes no room for people who brought AJJ > to Korea other > than Choi such as Jang Im Mok. Jang ,In Mok became a doctor and has not had much of an impact as Ji,Han Jae Dojunim. There would be more room if they actually had more of an impact.. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:29:21 -0500 From: Beungood@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Giving credit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/18/2003 7:22:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > For myself I have no problem entertaining GM Ji as a contributor to the > Hapkido arts, but I think other folks deserve credit where credit is due. > Whats your investment in tunnel vision? Nobody says that you can't worship > at the GM of your choice. Lets just not pretend that he is > the only legit > game in town, yes? > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce It's not tunnel vision it's giving credit where credit is due. I think the author your talking about did not say Dojunim Ji was " the only game in town" like you say, only that we was largely responsible for the evoloution of Hapkido as we know it today. He merely gave credit where it was merited.Not some old "Found manuscript" that is interpretted with warped thinking.. Jack --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:34:52 -0500 From: Beungood@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Gun Restrictions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/18/2003 7:22:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Since I live in the Netherlands where you have to go through a lot of > paper work to get a gun, we don't have the same problems as you have in > the U.S. > My advice to the U.S. government would be to place more > restrictions on > weapon possesion Restrict them like Hitler's Nazi's did? Criminals don't stand in line and fill out required paper work to get a firearm. They steal them, smuggle them in the Country with drugs and then harm innocents. Any place in the Country that has gun bans or overly restrictive laws has huge amounts of victim crimes, the places that allow gun ownership have alot lower incidence of victim crime(as well as alot politer citizenry) As a Police Officer I (and most of my colleagues) say let every one of sound mind and body carry and own them and hold criminals accountable. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 7:40:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Stats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:34:54 -0600 (CST) > From: > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Stats?= > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > And while we are at it, does ANYBODY know where that stat > about "90% of > all fights wind up on the ground" came from?? I have looked > all over and > though it crops up like mushrooms over and over again I can't find a > source. > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce Yes. But the 90% part is bogus and it doesn't say what most people quoting it thinks it says. It comes from a study that Sergeant Greg Dossey did for the LAPD in which he found that about 2/3 (62%) LEO arrests or altercations ended with both parties on the ground. Apparently this statistic was commonly cited by Rorian Gracie for quite a while (used out of context actually) and the number grew from 2/3 to "most," to "90%" in the retelling by people who heard Rorian but didn't listen closely or forgot the source of the stat. references: http://www.nlectc.org/justnetnews/12171998.html#story7 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20011015220606.01583.00000098%40mb-mj .aol.com http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=B5B5D255.D71%25jls%40jps.ne Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 7:57:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Klaas Barends > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:23:45 +0100 > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Yes, and when one of your kids picks up the weapon and shoots another > kid ...... Klaas, This is an extremely rare occurrence. It's actually statistically insignificant. With something like 80-90 Million gun owners in the U.S. and something like 200 Million guns in private hands, the 156 accidental child deaths from a firearm is something like 0.000002 per gun owner and 0.0000008 per gun. Any Statistician will tell you that a 0.000002 number is "Statistically Insignificant." Believe it or not, SWIMMING POOLS are more likely to kill or injur a child then a firearm in the U.S. despite the fact that firearms VASTLY outnumber pools. 300 children under age 5 die in swimming pool drownings each year. Over 2000 each year are treated in emergency rooms for swimming pool submersion injuries (Source: U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission). For children up to 14, that number comes to 940 deaths in 1998 (National Center for Health Statistics, National Mortality Data, 1998). > Guns aren't the solution. Actually, statistical evidence shows that when firearms are made available to otherwise law abiding citizens, Violent Crime universally drops. I have studies and DOJ stats for this if you wish. > Since I live in the Netherlands where you have to go through a lot of > paper work to get a gun, we don't have the same problems as > you have in the U.S. No offense Klaas, but since you live in the Netherlands you may not have a very good idea of what actually happens in the U.S. Your information is apparently filtered through CNN news casts and you don't seem to have actually studied the real data very carefully. Perhaps you should spend some time looking at statistics in their contexts before coming to any conclusions. > My advice to the U.S. government would be to place more > restrictions on weapon possesion. Your advice is based on supposition, emotion, and inaccurate information. The facts do not bear out your conclusions or suggestion. Please feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions or for source statistics and studies. Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "Peacemaker" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 05:24:48 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Syndicated radio talk show host Larry Elder conducted > a series of shows on gun statistics and it was > interesting to find out that there really aren't ANY > statistics related to how often guns were used to > successfully defend victims or prevent crime. He is correct in that these data are not generally reported or collected. But the data is collected and statistics are generated via studies into the subject. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 05:35:41 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The whole bleh about constitutional right to bear arms... > Because some people 200+ years wrote it on a piece of paper makes it beyond > question ? > Times change, countries change, technology changes. Why can't a document ? Umm, well, it can change and it has changed. Just follow the proper procedure, as defined by the Founding Fathers, to modify the US Constitution. > Now I guess the word militia is one important important bit. Is militia an > old word for what today would be called the national guard or reserves ? See the diff between the organized militia and the unorganized militia, as definded in the US Federal Code. > Introducing a gun or any weapon into a situation surely heightens aggression? Actually, no. Introducing a weapon of defense into an "interpersonal encounter" will reduce your chances of the criminal assault being successfully completed. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:29:59 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_Ground_work_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John: ".....Point below well taken, Bruce. It is hardly hard statistics. On the other hand, it is not difficult to say that enough fights wind up there that one ignores ground fighting at one's own peril. And, further, that most of the so-called "grappling" in Hapkido/Kuk Sool Won/Hwarang-do is a total joke......" Well, maybe not a TOTAL joke, but I know what you are wanting to say. My complaint is when people pull these "stats" out in an effort to validate what they are doing. To my way of thinking if one is going to use a stat then they certaily ought to be able to to cite a source. After all statistics prove that 36.5% of all statistical references are misrepresented and another 61% are blatant fabrications. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:44:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Guns US-EU basic difference of view points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Andrew wrote: >...[snip] >crime statistics) make us any less free? The only freedom I see that the US >has gained from having a gun culture is the freedom to fear thy neighbour. > >Respectively, > >Andrew You've hit my point of view right on the head. In the U.S., even the criminals (who are NEVER bound by the same laws that restrict the law abiding citizens from posessing a gun) fears thy neighbour!!!! I for one would think twice if my would be victim "may" have a gun! If I knew they didn't have a gun, of what would I fear? A bullet knows not the "zones" of our training! Across the room is just as good as "in kicking range". Look at it this way, when sparring, if you KNEW your opponent/partner would not/could not (ok - too much Dr. Suess) kick, you would probably stay in your kicking range, and stay out of where they can punch! You "fear" what that might be able to do with hands alone! I do sparring drills with my students where one is the attacker and the other pure defense. You get a whole new sense of confidence as the attacker when you know what your partner can not throw any offensive techniques! I agree with Mr. Terry on the stats. While I can't quote any, I have heard that when "right to carry" laws were implemented, incidents of gun related crimes declined! Look at the U.S. public school system: I believe it is a Federal Offense to have a gun on school property - that said, there have been a whole lot of innocent, defenseless students that have suffered at the hands of other gun carrying students ready to settle a grudge. Don't get me wrong - I am not saying to arm every student, but some authority within the school, who had access to a weapon just MAY be able to fend off disaster. It may be easy to point to numbers of lives lost due to something like firearms, but what of the number of lives saved by them? Of course, this is all my opinion, but I like to enjoy the freedom to choose to possess/carry. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:29:58 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] 90% Ground Rule Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Good grief. That was the infamous quote from Rorion. That was just ad copy from Rorion Gracie back in the early 90's when he and Royce released the original Gracie Basics tape set. I think my Mom even knows this. If that one got you riled up, then I guess Paul Vunak's quote of "a man with six months of Gracie Jiu-jitsu can beat a man with 20 years of martial arts experience" really got you boiling. I believe that one ran in the same ad campaign. The problem is not the original quote, but the fact that the thundering herd out there takes these things coming from "authority figures" and begins preaching it as the gospel truth. Not to mention they can't separate ad copy sensationalism from verified statistical data. By the way, the average is closer to 85%...but I think Rorion just rounded up. Craig "Now With 30% More Sarcasm" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. 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Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest