Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:57:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #518 - 19 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Enlightening (Beungood@aol.com) 2. hoshinsul and going to the ground (Burdick, Dakin R) 3. RE: Peacemaker (Michael Rowe) 4. Guns (Chris Holmes) 5. RE:Hapkido vs Aikido (Michael Rowe) 6. Syracuse=Water Street Gym and Sorrentino's Boxing ? (Ken McDonough) 7. RE:[The_Dojang]RE:Guns US-EU basic difference of view points (adam flanders) 8. A Question of Aliveness (Stovall, Craig) 9. Re: Different KHF website (ABurrese@aol.com) 10. Re: Re: 'peacemaker' (TKDTOM) 11. Re: Re: guns & Michael Moore (SheaBM@aol.com) 12. RE: Guns US-EU basic differ (Kirk Lawson) 13. Shotokan influence on TKD? (Daniel Monjar) 14. Re: total joke? (Michael Whalen) 15. Thread end, please (Ray Terry) 16. Re: 90% Ground Rule (John Frankl) 17. Re: Re: Who taught Lee,joo bang (John Frankl) 18. RE: "Peacemaker" (Kirk Lawson) 19. Reply: Guns aren't the solution (Dr. Daryl Covington) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:52:38 -0500 From: Beungood@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Enlightening Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/19/2003 7:22:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > And what exactly has GM Ji contributed enlightening > we KMA practitioners about this bit of Korean culture? You have to open your ears and listen to him while he is speaking at his seminars and when having lunch opr dinner with him during these events. He always talks of the culture and history ofHapkidoand developing it. <<< and what GM Ji says and what GM Ji does. Its not as though he has left us many books illuminating Korean martial history as Dr. Kimm has done. And its not as though he has catalogued his material in book and video as GM Myung, Kwang Sik has done. And its not as though he did much to reach out>> Both of these fine gentlemen were students of Dojunim Ji and have letters and documentation from him in thier respective books. <>> I think he incorporated more than just a "Few Kicks"( 25 basic, dozens of specialty kicks) added straight punch/boxing punch defenses, cane techniques,scarf/rope/belt techniques areamong the many things he added and refined. If he was not so influentual why are all the individuals mentioned have pictures of him in thier books? <> Howabout spreading Hapkido all over the world? evolving it and making it better for the first two? Jack --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:11:15 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] hoshinsul and going to the ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: And while we are at it, does ANYBODY know where that stat about "90% of all fights wind up on the ground" came from?? I have looked all over and though it crops up like mushrooms over and over again I can't find a source. My reply: It is from the Gracies. Good marketing, eh? Robert Martin wrote: If I remember correctly, Choi Hong Hi used GM Ji's Hapkido as the basis of the ITF ho sin sul. Many of the techniques demonstrated in Choi's encyclopedia resembles the Hapkido that I have seen. My reply: Nope. The Hoshinsul in the 1965 edition is old school karate defenses (compare with "Best Karate"!). The Hoshinsul in the 1973 edition is hapkido by Ki-Tae Chung in Toronto. He published an interview a while back about how he agreed to do that section in return for being allowed to continue to teach in Toronto. Gen. Choi wanted his own guy to take over, and had told Chung to leave town but Chung worked a deal and instead just did the hoshinsul section for Choi. It is always hilarious to me, because it talks about how the hoshinsul is the most advanced and effective part of taekwondo, which means that hapkido is the most advanced and effective part of taekwondo! LOL Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:29:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Peacemaker Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << Its not like a kid could accidentally pick up a weapon of the day back then load it and fire it (there was nothing accidental about firearms 200 years ago). Now a kid can pick up what looks like a toy and splat half a room and not even realize what they have done.>> Actually it has a lot more to do with the fact that people were held more accountable in the past. When I was a child guns were part of education. You learned what a gun could do, you learned to respect them for what they are. Today everyone is about it not being their fault. I never played with guns, even squirt guns as a child << More to the point wasn't the whole purpose of that clause based around how the US came to be... ie. out of an uprising against the Poms. The actual text is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the rights of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Isn't it ?>> Ok here is a big argument that nobody ever seems to win, but I'll put my 2 cents in anyway. The statement starts with "A well regulated Militia ..." but later it says "the rights of the people..." not "the rights of the militia ..." Everything about firearms is out of whack. Criminals can get their hands on them. The only thing OUTRIGHT BANNING does is keeps upstanding citizens from owning them. Criminals in ALL countries can find ways to obtain firearms, if they want to, even in OZ. Michael Rowe If at first you succeed, try to hide your astonishment! mp_rowe@cox.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:32:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Guns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I felt like I needed to add my 2cents worth on the gun issue. #1 people kill people, guns are just a tool they use to make it easier. People have been killing each other since Cain killed Abel. As a sportsman, father, husband, and American I echo Charleston Heston, "They can take my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands." I haven't checked any national statistics but I have had a lot more people I know killed by automobile accidents than by firearms. Firearms have been a integral part of the culture and climate of the United States since it was founded. The way you handled your weapons was one indication of the caliber of man you were. Guns are a tool no more no less, with or without them people will continue to kill each other in one way or another until the second coming. Point #2 since automobiles kill hundreds of thousands every year do we need to ban them. Should there be more restrictions on automobile ownership. This might work in extremely large urban areas like Ny but it would not work at all in our more rural areas. A friend of mine from England talked about walking nearly everywhere he went or catching a train, bus, etc. He realized how impossible life in southern Ms would be without a car when he stayed here over the summer. Point #3 For those that seem to delight in bashing the US and our policies, there are alot of other countries that would be happy to restrict your civil liberties. Most of these countries have a lower standard of living. So you could take your savings and live like a king, without the freedom of course. I'm still waiting for Alex Baldwin to leave, after all a promise is a promise. Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ online games and music with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:35:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Hapkido vs Aikido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << All good information Ray. Another interesting yet little mentioned part of Ueshiba's background--mostly due to the post facto hippie-ization of Aikido--is that he was an ardent militarist. He used to hang from tree limbs trying to stretch his body an extra centimeter or two; it seems poor Morihei was just too darn short for the Japanese Imperial Army, and thus excluded from all the fun they were having in Korea and China. In short, he wanted very much to be part of the raping and killing on the continent, but the government didn't see him as soldier material. Funny that the peace and love crowd chooses to ignore this.>> LITTLE MENTIONED? Please get real. In every book on Aikido history you will find that story. Additionally you will find that after he FINALLY got into the army and did his time in Manchuria, Ueshiba was very much against the army's way of doing things. The army wanted him to go into officer training but Ueshiba got out of the army. The peace and love crowd (your words not mine) have always pointed out his involvement in the military. Get your facts straight. Michael Rowe If at first you succeed, try to hide your astonishment! mp_rowe@cox.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:58:31 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Syracuse=Water Street Gym and Sorrentino's Boxing ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net HI Dere: Does anyone know of the subject Water Street Gym and the Sorrentino Boxing program ? Let me know. Know of other good schools ? Danks, Ken McDee --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "adam flanders" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:10:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:[The_Dojang]RE:Guns US-EU basic difference of view points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Klaus and Ray, We're probably getting a little off-subject here but FWIW there's an interesting book called "Guns & Violence: the English Experience" by Joyce Lee Malcolm. Supposedly it's based on a very accurate statistical model. I'd be curious to hear what our training friends in the UK might say after reading it... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674007530/qid=1069261232/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/002-3514497-1245665?v=glance&s=books Adam >No thanks. Then you have the problem of the old, weak and small not being >able to defend themselves properly even within their own homes. > >Don't take this wrong, but myself... I'd rather live in a free country. >< > >Sorry, I have to agree with Klaus, I would rather live in a gun-free >country. In what way does the state removing a deadly firearm from public >circulation (where any common criminal can kill his victim -go read your >crime statistics) make us any less free? The only freedom I see that the US >has gained from having a gun culture is the freedom to fear thy neighbour. You lost me on the crime stats part. Studies (Kleck et al) show us just how frequently legally owned firearms are used to protect against crime. 2.5 million times each year, as I recall. On the free part... well, people will value and view freedom differently. But I know I wish -more- of my neighbors and friends were firearms owners. Then my neighborhood, city and state would be a safer place to live and work. Yet it is their choice to not own, while it is my choice to own. I cannot force them to go out and buy a weapon for our mutual defense and they cannot force me to give mine up. That is freedom... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _________________________________________________________________ online games and music with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:15:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] A Question of Aliveness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dr. Daryl writes, <<>> I echo some your sentiment. Just curious as to how you do things in your program in order to increase the level of realism/aliveness. Thanks. Craig "12 Steps Forward, 11 Steps Back" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:56:47 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Different KHF website Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Oops, In my reply to Sharon regarding LEOs in Korea, I mistakenly used .com rather than .tv for the website. In the post to Ray, I had the correct website for the different KHF. It is www.koreahapkido.tv My typo, sorry! Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "TKDTOM" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:08:14 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In this age of political correctness I want the protections of a 200 year old document that is difficult, but not impossible, to change. Remember that the Constitution protects the rights of the minority against the wishes of the majority. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean O'Brien" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:40 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 'peacemaker' The whole bleh about constitutional right to bear arms... Because some people 200+ years wrote it on a piece of paper makes it beyond question ? Times change, countries change, technology changes. Why can't a document ? --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:09:46 -0500 From: SheaBM@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: guns & Michael Moore Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda wrote: "a former student stayed with us over the weekend. she decided to rent "bowling for columbine". i thought it would actually be boring, but it was rather interesting. michael moore showing up unannounced might make me look bad when i slam the door in his face, too. however, i think he did a good job. gun fans and protesters alike might enjoy it." Michael Moore did if fact do "a good job", but not of making a documentary or presenting the truth. His "documentary" was a collection of set-ups, lies, propaganda, half-truths and creative editing. Follow the link for some interesting facts regarding each scene in the movie. http://bowlingfortruth.com/ There are several other sites detailing the misrepresented "documentary" that is "Bowling For Columbine." It seems innocent enough until you realize that people will actually form opinions based on the misinformation presented as hard facts. Best Regards, Byron --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:10:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Guns US-EU basic differ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 4 > From: andrew pratt > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:34:10 +0900 > Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Guns US-EU basic difference of view points > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Sorry, I have to agree with Klaus, I would rather live in a gun-free > country. In what way does the state removing a deadly firearm > from public > circulation (where any common criminal can kill his victim > -go read your > crime statistics) make us any less free? I've read my own statistics. The availability of firearms to otherwise law abiding citizens is universally associated with a drop in Violent Crime. Further, studies show that criminals will 1) obtain firearms anyway, 2) not be deterred from committing violent crimes by the supposed scarcity of firearms. > The only freedom I see that the US > has gained from having a gun culture is the freedom to fear > thy neighbour. In every area of the U.S. where "gun laws" were relaxed Violent Crime decreases. In every area of the U.S. where "gun laws" are made more stringent Violent Crime increases. These are U.S. Department of Justice statistics. The freedom lost is the ability to defend oneself with the most effective tool available and forced dependence upon "protection" services that are inherently undependable for personal protection (courts have ruled that LEOs have no responsibility to protect individuals - further, they literally can not do so). I doubt you will believe this though. Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:16:05 -0500 From: Daniel Monjar To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A question for those far more knowledgeable than I... what is the influence of Shotokan Karate on TKD, if any? -- Daniel Monjar --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:18:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: total joke? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >And, further, that most of the so-called "grappling" in Hapkido/Kuk Sool Won/Hwarang-do is a total joke.   John, May I ask what your exposure to these techniques were? I personally have experienced the pain side of some of them, by someone with experience, and don't see anything funny about busted ribs or having my arm bent 90 degrees in the wrong direction... respectfully, michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:18:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Thread end, please Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok folks, I think we've gone off topic long enough and should end the pro/anti gun thread, for now. Both sides have had a chance to provide their thoughts on the matter. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 90% Ground Rule Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:24:14 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All good fun. If these quotations get people angry, it is because there is a large kernel of truth in them. Rorion and Vu are both good salemen, but the fact remains that what Vu said, though certainly dependent on the first man and the second man, will be true more often than not. John >Good grief. That was the infamous quote from Rorion. That was just ad >copy from Rorion Gracie back in the early 90's when he and Royce released >the original Gracie Basics tape set. I think my Mom even knows this. If >that one got you riled up, then I guess Paul Vunak's quote of "a man with >six months of Gracie Jiu-jitsu can beat a man with 20 years of martial arts >experience" really got you boiling. I believe that one ran in the same ad >campaign. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Who taught Lee,joo bang Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:35:46 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is certainly possible. And the fact that both Lee and Suh are less than forthcoming about the true circumstances of their martial educations doesn't help clarify things. But this explanation also has certain holes in it. The two that come to mind immediately are the lack of sustained geographical proximity and Lee's flying of the Kuk Sool Won banner. John >From: Beungood@aol.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Who taught Lee,joo bang >Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:23:02 -0500 > >In a message dated 11/18/2003 7:22:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > > explanation makes no room for the other folks who taught > > Joo Bang > > Lee, In Hyuk Suh > >Grandmaster Ji taught them! >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Help STOP spam with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 18 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:31:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Peacemaker" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:01:05 -0800 (PST) > From: Brooke Thomas > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] "Peacemaker" > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net [snip] > Syndicated radio talk show host Larry Elder conducted > a series of shows on gun statistics and it was > interesting to find out that there really aren't ANY > statistics related to how often guns were used to > successfully defend victims or prevent crime. Well, they don't get much press or air time, but they are there. (from: Facts You Can Use - http://www.gac.20m.com/facts_you_can_use.htm ) ================ Defensive Gun Uses There is considerable debate regarding the number of times firearms are used each year to fend off violent criminals. Much of the uncertainty is due to the fact that defensive gun uses are often limited to the would-be victim displaying a firearm which scares away the perpetrator. Such incidents are seldom reported to government agencies, which explains the lower estimates by such agencies. The annual estimates are as follows: No. of Defensive Uses Source 2.1 million Point Blank: Guns & Violence in America, Gary Kleck 700,000 Mauser study 650,000 Hart study 108,000 1993 National Crime Victim Survey 76,000 1996 National Crime Victim Survey Significantly, even using the lowest estimate, 76,000 violent crimes are prevented by armed citizens each year. Thus, the number of violent crimes thwarted by armed citizens is about four times the annual murder rate. ============== "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 19 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:42:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Reply: Guns aren't the solution Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir, Only an idiot would leave a gun where I kid would play with it. Two: properly trained kids brought up correctly would not mess with a gun if it was "left unattended" Three: Gun control sounded good in Germany once. Hitler did well with it. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest