Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:32:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #519 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ray's Free Country (Dr. Daryl Covington) 2. RE: Shotokan influence on TKD? (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 3. Re: Shotokan influence on TKD? (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Ray (Dr. Daryl Covington) 5. 90% of fights go to the ground (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. RE; Martial artist / gun owner (Dr. Daryl Covington) 7. RE: 90% Ground Rule (Stovall, Craig) 8. Re: Craig about program (Dr. Daryl Covington) 9. Typing (Dr. Daryl Covington) 10. Choi Hong Hi and hapkido (Robert Martin) 11. Dojang buddies (Rudy Timmerman) 12. Re: Re: Craig about program (John Frankl) 13. Various items... (J Thomas Howard) 14. Historical truth (J.R. West) 15. Re: Ray & the Constitution (Christopher Spiller) 16. Re: Typing (TKDTOM) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:45:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ray's Free Country Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me too Ray. I'll take the U.S. and all our problems over anything else. I've been shot at myself for this nation, and as a combat vet, I assure you, when the weak get in troube, it is us Gun Totin US thugs they call on. God Bless America. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:52:05 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Daniel, That's a larger question than I can address in a few minutes, but I'll take the plunge and start the thread. The influence is considerable, but varies dependent upon the Kwan, or the forms used by each school. Many of the older/founding masters of TKD studied Shotokan and held rank in it. The Pyong-Ahn/Pinan forms come from exactly the same root and masters as the Shotokan Heian forms. I'm sure many other list members will jump in with more detail. Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Monjar [mailto:daniel.monjar@na.biomerieux.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 12:16 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? > > A question for those far more knowledgeable than I... what is the > influence > of Shotokan Karate on TKD, if any? > > -- > Daniel Monjar > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:54:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > A question for those far more knowledgeable than I... what is the influence > of Shotokan Karate on TKD, if any? Significant. Several of the early Kwan leaders were Shotokan dans or students. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:57:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, Again, I agree. Stats are most crimes are done by illegally owned guns anyway I beleive. Gun control takes guns from the honest, not the criminal. Here in Mississippi, ALL of my neigbors Do on guns. AND, I have not taken the keys out of my vehicle, locked my martial arts school, church, or home, in 3 years. As a matter of fact, I don't even know where the house keys are. daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:59:21 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] 90% of fights go to the ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kirk Lawson wrote: It comes from a study that Sergeant Greg Dossey did for the LAPD in which he found that about 2/3 (62%) LEO arrests or altercations ended with both parties on the ground. Apparently this statistic was commonly cited by Rorian Gracie for quite a while (used out of context actually) and the number grew from 2/3 to "most," to "90%" in the retelling by people who heard Rorian but didn't listen closely or forgot the source of the stat. My Reply: Actually, no. At the article by Dossey at http://www.defendu.com/10_bjj.htm, he mentions: "Both LAPD statistics and the Gracie family assert that between 65 to 85 percent of altercations eventually end up on the ground anyway." Dossey himself was a student of the Gracie stuff (taught in LAPD because of the marvelous influence of Hollywood on American fighting styles), so his "research" was really more in the line of supporting what the Gracies were teaching. Brad Parker's "The Ten Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Moves Every Cop Should Know" at http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:6H65KhhAyigJ:scv1988.redirectme.net :64080/~fitzy/unarmed%2520combat/texts/Jujitsu%2520Moves.pdf+ground+%22g reg+dossey%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 had this to say: "Many martial artists and defensive tactics instructors tell their students to 'never go to the ground' with a subject because of the dangers to be found there. However, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners aim for the exact opposite outcome - their goal is to always take the fight to the ground. " Of course, even if most fights did end up on the ground, that is NOT where you should aim to be. The Gracies train for fighting one on one, without weapons, for a title. Their stuff works for that. On the street, try not to get in position where five guys can jump on you! True story time -- because of the Gracie success, our federation (USHF) increased the number of ground grapping requirements. For my 2nd dan test, I had to demonstration escapes from pinned position (man on top, etc.). My partner did this by bucking, turning over, passing the guard, and going to the mount. I did it by reaching down and grabbing his nuts. He jumped off pretty damn fast. :) Craig Stovall writes: That was just ad copy from Rorion Gracie back in the early 90's when he and Royce released the original Gracie Basics tape set. My reply: THANK YOU CRAIG!!!!! Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:01:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE; Martial artist / gun owner Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Great note. I am a certified Hand Gun Instructor with Mississippi Field and Streams Clubs, 4H, and the NRA. Both of my girls shoot around 280 + out of 300 in Competition, but neither would touch a pistol without me. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:04:35 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: 90% Ground Rule Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John writes, <<>> Having some training in Gracie Jiu-jitsu myself, I can only say...you are correct. And yes, it's that very large kernel of DEMONSTRATED truth that people get stuck in their craw. People tend to get pissed when objective reality turns out to be different than what they were sold in the laboratory. Oh well, if the UFC or Pride ever includes a division that has to start the fight from a wrist grab, then some of these other folks can participate. I'm kidding, I'm just kidding!!!!!! Don't flame me. Craig "I Respect All Styles......of Music" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:18:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Craig about program Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig, A constant state of evolution would best describe the "reality" training of our program. Here is one idea. For the grappler who says it is always best to be on the ground (Don't get me wrong, we do much "submission / pins / etc), put boxing gloves on. ONce my students figure out that in reality, you don't get to lie on your back and try to do armbars without someone punching, perspectives change a bit. Many things of this nature are blended into the training. For punch blocking, we do similiar drills, having the attacker in boxing gloves. I'm always open to good ideas \ daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:23:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Typing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sirs, In reading my posts, I have come to the reality that typing is not one of my strong suits. Perhaps conditioning of the hands prevents proper key strokes, but almost every post I have made has typos. Just thought I'd point that out before anyone else did. On this list, Being critical is far easier than being correct. ha ha. grace and peace, daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:28:54 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Choi Hong Hi and hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the correction. As TKDer I don't really dispute that the self defense part of ITF TKD is the strongest part of the art. Makes sense to me. Robert Martin > > Robert Martin wrote: > > If I remember correctly, Choi Hong Hi used GM Ji's > Hapkido as the basis of the ITF ho sin sul. Many of > the techniques demonstrated in Choi's encyclopedia > resembles the Hapkido that I have seen. > > My reply: > > Nope. The Hoshinsul in the 1965 edition is old > school karate defenses > (compare with "Best Karate"!). The Hoshinsul in the > 1973 edition is > hapkido by Ki-Tae Chung in Toronto. He published an > interview a while > back about how he agreed to do that section in > return for being allowed > to continue to teach in Toronto. Gen. Choi wanted > his own guy to take > over, and had told Chung to leave town but Chung > worked a deal and > instead just did the hoshinsul section for Choi. It > is always hilarious > to me, because it talks about how the hoshinsul is > the most advanced and > effective part of taekwondo, which means that > hapkido is the most > advanced and effective part of taekwondo! LOL > > Yours in the arts, > > Dakin > dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:53:55 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dojang buddies Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lois writes: > I read with > envy comments on the Dojang Digest about seminars from which the > participants leave bruised but happy. > > IMNSHO, I think it really depends on the instructor and student. The > instructor needs to be able to be objective in the dojang in order to > be an effective teacher and the student/friend needs to submit to the > training and discipline given to him "on the mat". If either cannot > succeed in separating student from friend then the result is lost > friendship and/or poor training. Consistency is also important. If the > instructor who has a friendly relationship with his students in the > dojang, suddenly becomes the traditional master, he leaves the > students feeling frustrated and angry. On the other hand, an > instructor who usually expects students to treat him with traditional > respect will confuse his students if he sporadically becomes their > buddy. I guess the student-instructor relationship is like every other > relationship: it involves two unpredictable factors -- human beings :) > . Hello Lois: I see some very valuable points in your post that remind me to remain an Instructor who values family life first, the job or school next, and training in the arts somewhere behind that. Even though I treat my students as my family (and most are close friends), I continue to dish out some tough love whenever needed. I expect more than my students THINK they can give me, and I usually end up frustrated when very talented students fail to realize that martial art discipline and strong technique by itself does not make a complete martial artist. Yet, they are family, so we go on trying to teach that there is much more to martial arts than kicking, punching, and strong bodies. I guess that is why I am still able to attract Masters to train with me despite my age and physical limitations:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Craig about program Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:55:21 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Here is one idea. For the grappler who says it is always best to be on the ground (Don't get me wrong, we do much "submission / pins / etc),  put boxing gloves on. ONce my students figure out that in reality, you don't get to lie on your back and try to do armbars without someone punching, perspectives change a bit" Good points, but they also uncover certain fallacies. The first is that a good grappler WANTS to be on the bottom/guard. The fact is he will often choose to be on top. Another fact is that if his opponent is not a grappler getting and maintaining the top position will be relatively easy. Which leads us to another interesting fact--if you do not like fighting on the ground--and if you are primarily concerned with unlikely scenarios like bar fights, etc. you should be averse to fighting on the ground--you had better learn to grapple. This may appear paradoxical, but only someone trained in wrestling/judo/bjj/etc. will be able to prevent the fight from going to the ground. They will also know how to get back to their feet safely and efficiently if they so choose. If you ignore grappling because you do not want to grapple in a self defense situation, you will most certainly be put on your back by anyone with any grappling knowledge or any appreciable advantage in terms of size and strength. As for eating punches from the guard. It can and does happen. But proper training can also minimize this. Just as Rickson Gracie would have a bit of trouble throwing a jump spin kick, even very skilled Korean martial artists will often eat punches from the guard. But Rickson's not being able to throw a jump spin kick does not make the technique impossible or invalid, it just means he has not trained it enough to make it work for him. And vise versa. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gift-shop online from the comfort of home at MSN Shopping! No crowds, free parking. --__--__-- Message: 13 To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:18:53 -0600 (CST) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Various items... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry about the multi-topic post, but several things got me going. First off, I wasn't going to comment on the gun topic much at all (primarily because Kirk Lawson already said most of what I was planning on saying, and HE remembered his cites for the most part) but I will say that I find it interesting that in this forum we hear the phrase "deadly weapon." A weapon is a tool. Whether it is deadly or not depends on how it is used, but really on the tool. A tool is a force magnifier, and how you are applying that force is the major (ok, ONLY) thing that matters with respect to whether or not anything "deadly" is going on. I own several firearms, and a number of knives, swords, and other martial arts weapons. None have ever killed anyone, yet I've used them all many times. Each is a weapon, which is to say that they are tools. What I do with them is the criterion as to whether they are "deadly" or not. The tool itself is an object. Or are cars suddenly deadly weapons, since they kill so many people each year? Oh, "that depends on how it is used," you say? Thank you for making my point. :) Noting cross-culture references, I wouldn't expect anyone to listen to me pontificating on how cutting down the number of bridges in Japan would reduce the suicide rate, since I don't know the Japanese culture other than their suicide rate is dramatically high and they use bridges a lot, and I don't understand the situation that exists in Japan. In a similar fashion, I tend not to listen to other people talk about how to fix the "gun problem" of the U.S. if they don't understand the culture and situation in the U.S. (Particularly as there is a "people problem" not a "tool problem".) Several people asked me to look up and find those cites I had on the close-range stats I posted earlier. I'm still searching, and I'll hopefully dig them up this weekend. (I had a catastrophic hard drive failure about a month back, and I'm still trying to make sure I have all of my documents.) If I can't find the cite, I'll retract my statements and rephrase them as opinions that you can believe or ignore them as you please. :) Bowling for Columbine: read http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html for something to get your blood pressure up. Dr. Covington (I think---apologies if I am wrong) asked what people do in dojangs for more realistic firearms practice. Well, we do two things. First off, once a year I invite all of my student out to my place, and we go through a basic firearms familiarization process, under the belief that the easiest way to learn how to defend against something is to understand how it works in the first place. My students aren't required to attend, but no one has chosen not to yet. We go over the basics of firearms, from composition to safety, stance, and trigger control, take them apart and put them back together again, do some dry fire practice and aiming practice (with AirSoft guns) then head out to the range to shoot a little bit. Everyone hears what a gun sounds like (only once!) without hearing protection, then everyone gets a chance to shoot a .22 pistol (with hearing protection and eye protection). Those who want to may shoot any one of a number of other pistols. I'll note that all but one of my students loved it so much that they continually ask to go shooting more. Several of my students have bought firearms of their own, and practice often. (The one person who didn't love it didn't mind it, he just likes knives better.) In the second place, in the dojang after they've had some practice, we put goggles on 'em and have their opponent use an AirSoft pistol that shoots the little plastic BBs. (They sting, too. Quite a lot.) We used to use dart guns that shoot the little rubber suction-cup darts, but the flaming orange toy gun didn't really create the proper mood. The AirSoft guns look real, the slide moves when you fire, and the little BB _stings._ But it doesn't kill you. We practice drills where the person with the gun WILL shoot you if they see you winding up to move, if you act in a threatening or sudden manner, and if they can get the gun back on target as you move in your defense. Works pretty well. I'll note further that I consider myself fully capable of using my firearm defense techniques. Note: I didn't say I'd be successful. But I'm capable of trying, because if the situation exists where I'm using them, it is because I'm fairly certain the criminal is going to shoot me anyway, so I have nothing to lose by trying, and my life to possibly gain. (I'll also note that after taking my students shooting, they realize that a gun isn't a magic wand, and someone shooting at them doesn't mean they are dead---for example, most criminals do NOT practice shooting techniques, and if you don't practice, it is very hard to hit a moving target under stress quickly at 10 feet.) Anyway---7 feet isn't quite within arm's reach. However, it is a lot closer than people think, and if I'm going to be shot anyway... (Now if it was 10 feet and there was an opening, I might try to run first. DOTC*.) There were more things I wanted to comment on, but that'll probably do for now. Oh, Bruce---I generally like your comments (whether I agree with them or not) but tone down the caffiene a little, hmm? :) One of your last posts was stated with a little more emotional loading than you normally use, without much provocation. I know you can think clearly and precisely, so don't lose that edge due to annoyance or bad mood, k? Thomas *DOTC = Depnds On the Circumstances. ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:25:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Historical truth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have listened to the arguments from both sides about the origins of HapKiDo and whether it came from GM Ji or GM Choi or, for that matter, out of the sky on a flaming platter, and I have to admit that it is a nice academic exercise to contemplate where all this wonderful stuff came from and to dig through the martial art version of Genesis to see who begat who, but does it actually have any effect on what I will teach in tonight's class?...no, absolutely not! I have found that when running through the woods, it is most desirable to look ahead and plot your course as you go, and try NOT to take a tree in your onion while looking behind you. As far as GM Ji is concerned, I have never been on the mat with the man, but I understand his basic motion is incredible, and one of GM Choi's first students, GM Kim, Jung-soo, who scares the crap out of me, and still operates a school in Taegu, says that he applauds and credits GM Ji for taking HapKiDo and spreading the "word" around the world. So there seems to be room for everybody, and mutual respect is the term of the time. On a side note, as a white belt, I can never remember my instructor's instructor's name being brought up, or anything having to do with HapKiDo history, kwan history (I never heard of a HapKiDo kwan until I got involved with Dr. Kimm and heard the term MuSulKwan in the 1970's) As far as the old book is concerned, who knows what it is and where it came from. About 10 years ago, I saw a version of an empty handed form that came from this book and I decided right then that I was pretty much uninterested in what else might be in there. Just think how "out-of-date" some other physical texts would be today if they were written back then. I'm sure that all the contents would be very interesting as a historical look back, but not as a guide for what to do in the future, but that may just be my way of looking at things......J. R. West --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:01:08 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ray & the Constitution Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> The whole bleh about constitutional right to bear >>arms...Because some people 200+ years wrote it on a >>piece of paper makes it beyond question ? >>Times change, countries change, technology changes. >>Why can't a document ? >Umm, well, it can change and it has changed. Just >follow the proper procedure, as defined by the >Founding Fathers, to modify the US Constitution. Ray, that's enough of that crazy talk from you! The Constitution is a living, breathing document that evolves over time (in fact, I think it may chime in on this topic itself since legal activists have basically endowed the damn thing with sentience). The actual words it contains have nothing to do with anything, man. They simply serve as a means for me (and anyone who actually is a judge in this country) to deconstruct the text, get "behind" it to discover what the author REALLY wanted to say or, failing that, make them say what *I* think they should say. Your logical arguments about following the procedures set out to LEGALLY modify the Constitution now become irrelevant because I can make it say whatever I want! Ha-ha to you! But seriously, in the words of Charles Rice, Professor Emeritus of Notre Dame Law School: "It's an interesting time to be alive ... but don't fool yourself and think that the U.S. is still governed by a Constitution." Kind of frightening, huh? Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "TKDTOM" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Typing Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:22:54 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is the content that is important and not the typos. Keep providing this great content. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:23 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Typing Sirs, In reading my posts, I have come to the reality that typing is not one of my strong suits. Perhaps conditioning of the hands prevents proper key strokes, but almost every post I have made has typos. Just thought I'd point that out before anyone else did. On this list, Being critical is far easier than being correct. ha ha. grace and peace, daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest