Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:57:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #520 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Stats on ending up on the ground (Michael Fogus) 2. Almost total joke... (Stovall, Craig) 3. Hapkido Legends and myths (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 4. Tae Kwon Do, sort of. (David Weller) 5. Hapkido Legends and facts (Ray Terry) 6. RE:disarming the nation or world (Tammy & Greg Hindley) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Immature_Gun_Owner_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chicken_or_the_Egg?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. Spiritual thought (eleusis) 10. Re: Shotokan influence on TKD? (eleusis) 11. Re: Typing (eleusis) 12. Choi, Hong Hi & Hapkido (Todd Miller) 13. Re: Re: Chicken or the Egg (John Frankl) 14. RE: Old Time Training (Troy Trudeau) 15. Re: Almost total joke... (John Frankl) 16. Re waiting periods between belts (Manuel Maldonado) 17. Re: Hapkido Schools in the Houston Area (Braeswood Martial Arts) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Michael Fogus" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:42:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Stats on ending up on the ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "And while we are at it, does ANYBODY know where that stat about "90% of all fights wind up on the ground" came from?? I have looked all over and though it crops up like mushrooms over and over again I can't find a source." If I had to guess, I would say that this particular statement is anecdotal. Speaking from my own experience, I grew up in Baltimore, MD and spent a lot of time walking the streets of Fells Point. During the years I can confidently say that I've watched hundreds of fights occur outside of the many bars in that area. Of these fights, I would have a very hard time remembering but a handful that did not end up on the ground eventually. Of those handful, I would say that half involved one extremely drunk person versus a not-so-drunk person. There is no way for me to know the martial arts training of these people, so perhaps a highly trained practitioner can avoid the ground. However, in my experience I have rarely observed a person laid flat by a single punch or kick. On the contrary, very often when a person is hit solidly, they have a tendency to try a grapple in order to avoid being hit similarly. It is very difficult to stop someone from grabbing you when that is there only immediate goal. Once they have you, then it is only a matter of time before the situation winds up on the ground. -m --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:57:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Almost total joke... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I'll let John answer for himself since he made the "total joke" comment. However, I'll offer some "compare and contrast" in terms of what I've seen in KMA and what I've seen in the "more respected" ground fighting arts (BJJ, Judo, Satoru Sayama's Shooto, etc). A lot of the stuff I've seen in KMA does not assume a fully resisting opponent (read: practiced exclusively in "uke & tori" fashion), nor does it contain a technical base sufficient to deal with the natural progression of a ground fight. Anybody can bust my ribs and bend my arm if I lay down and play dead for them, and people don't just sit on your chest and wait for you to grab their nads. Contrast this with what goes on in a BJJ school...it's nothing to see a 150 lbs blue belt take a 250 lbs hyper-aggressive athletic idiot who's looking to prove something, and basically play with them like a cat with a ball of string. Seen it dozens of times, myself. To me, that's the very definition of what a soft martial art should be. The nullification of strength and aggression through technique and skill. The real application of real technique in real time against real energy...the very definition of aliveness. Of course, BJJ can also get pretty frigging agro when it needs to be, as can shooto, Catch and Judo. But I digress... So in short...I wouldn't go so far as to say that ground fighting in KMA is a total joke. Ignoring some of the total BS techniques that I've seen taught, I've also seen a lot of the same arm bars and chokes that I see in BJJ, et al. However, I would question the modality within which these techniques are taught. If you can't do it in real time...you're kidding yourself. And there's only one way to get it down in real time... To me, it's as much the training environment/culture as it is the technical base. Actually, I'd go so far as to say that most people would be better off just grabbing a willing partner and rolling at 80% intensity with no formal training whatsoever, as opposed to spending countless hours of "when they do this, you do this, and that's the end of the fight". At least you're going to experience real time and real energy, and most people are smart enough to figure out a lot of technical issues on their own. After all, that's how Carlos Gracie and his brothers did it. It's not like they spent decades studying with Maeda. Craig "That's My Opinion" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:14:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Legends and myths Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry Ray, you say this every year, and every year I just shake my head.:) I am still not buying it. I have met hapkidoin who studied before Ji Han Jae, and there many who learned with another lineage before and after Ji Han Jae without his influence (after all, two of Choi Young Sul's first 10 students are still alive, I believe #1&8). So I still do not buy it. Maybe mainstream hapkido in the US), but I think you are making up the %:) Even for the sake of argument, lets say the 90% claim was true, What about their other teachers? Ji would not have been there only teacher. Excuse my annual rebuttal:) Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:26:40 -0600 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tae Kwon Do, sort of. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Relating to the recent thread on guns I would like to make mention of Gueda Springs, KS. which recently passed a city ordinance REQUIRING that all citizens own a gun of some sort. I betcha there are very few bad guys stupid enough to try a robbery, rape,etc in that little burg! Imagine the surprise of the purse snatching thief who sees a dozen guns whipped out when he tried to make his escape! dave weller Mr. Terry, I know you asked that this thread cease, but this was too interesting to not pass on. My apologies. I'll let someone tag me hard in class tomorrow night in your honor ;) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:34:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Legends and facts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Sorry Ray, you say this every year, and every year I just shake my head.:) I > am still not buying it. I have met hapkidoin who studied before Ji Han Jae, > and there many who learned with another lineage before and after Ji Han Jae > without his influence (after all, two of Choi Young Sul's first 10 students > are still alive, I believe #1&8). So I still do not buy it. Gm Ji is Dan #14 under Gm Choi, so yes, there were 13 Ywara people before him. But none had near the influence on what we now know as Hapkido as did Gm Ji. As has been said before... Choi was the spark, but Ji was the flame. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Tammy & Greg Hindley" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:45:26 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:disarming the nation or world Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To all, As a responsible gun owner, Martial artist and Bail enforcement officer in the USA I feel much safer owning a firearm to protect my life and that of my families and agents. Knocking down doors for a while and taking felons back to jail I must say that I have been enlightened. They are more well armed illegally than us law abiding citizens who can only own certain weapons. A lot of them are serious drug users and murderers. The crooks will always get there hands on more firepower so if we did away with guns we would be at serious risk. Just MHO Greg --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:41:35 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Immature_Gun_Owner_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Daryl: "....Me too Ray. I'll take the U.S. and all our problems over anything else. I've been shot at myself for this nation, and as a combat vet, I assure you, when the weak get in troube, it is us Gun Totin US thugs they call on. God Bless America....." I am a gun owner but its not as though its a political situation for me. The SKS I own came back with me from overseas and I don't imagine putting any rounds through it for the rest of the time I am alive. I had thought about picking up on some ammo and going plinking just for S&G-s. Maybe--- or maybe not. I share this because as much as I want to support the gun safety people in this country, that does not extend so far as to surrendering my firearm even though I have no intention whatsoever of ever using it for the balance of my lifetime. The fact is that I "paid" for that Chinese piece-of-s*** and millionaire jerks who stayed here in their safe homes while I went on my RVN vacation can have it as soon as they figure out a way of taking it from me without getting hurt. Its mine; I own it, and not all the political correctness in the world is going to make it right to tell me I can't own it if thats the choice I have made. I am not going hunting, and I am not going sniping. It is frankly my property and thats the right I bought with my earlier sacrifices. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:49:07 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chicken_or_the_Egg?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I seem to be getting mixed signals here. Did the Gracie people propose that 90% of fights end on the ground as a function of their material? (ie: You WANT you fight to end up on the ground!!) Did Gracie material follow function? (ie. a lot of fights end on the ground so you better be prepared.) Did Gracie material respond in kind to a standard statistic? (ie. Somebody said 90% of fights end on the ground so we ought to skew things that way if we can.) Its just a marketing gimmick. (ie. maybe a lot of fights end up on the ground. If they do we can capitalize on a weak spot in MA most folks don't address.) Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "eleusis" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:45:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Spiritual thought Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been doing TKD for just at a year now. To improve and hone my spirit I have been learning some about breathing methods of Zen but also reconnecting with my Christian spiritual roots. To this end I was looking for a meditation to help prepare the mind before TKD activity. My Army Chaplain shared this gem with me and I thought I might share it with you guys on the net: "Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for battle and my fingers for war; my safeguard, my fortress, my stronghold, my deliverer, my shield, in whom I trust, who subdues my (opponents) before me" Psalm 144 Sincerely, Rich Chicago Illinois Kaya Martial Arts --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "eleusis" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:57:13 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Thomas, You said the "influence is considerable, but varies dependent upon the Kwan, or the forms used by each school." My understanding of TKD is that if we are learning WTF forms they shouldn't vary from school to school. One standard. This issue is important to me as I progress because as a soldier in the Army I will likely have to change schools and it would kind of suck to have to relearn all the forms. Rich Chicago Il. Kaya Martial Arts ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason E. Thomas (Y!) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 12:52 PM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? Daniel, That's a larger question than I can address in a few minutes, but I'll take the plunge and start the thread. The influence is considerable, but varies dependent upon the Kwan, or the forms used by each school. Many of the older/founding masters of TKD studied Shotokan and held rank in it. The Pyong-Ahn/Pinan forms come from exactly the same root and masters as the Shotokan Heian forms. I'm sure many other list members will jump in with more detail. Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Monjar [mailto:daniel.monjar@na.biomerieux.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 12:16 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? > > A question for those far more knowledgeable than I... what is the > influence > of Shotokan Karate on TKD, if any? > > -- > Daniel Monjar > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "eleusis" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Typing Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:14:50 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Daryl, Go to tools in your outlook program. Click on check for spelling and every time you try to send an email with an error it will correct it for you. Rich Kaya Martial Arts Chicago Il. ----- Original Message ----- From: TKDTOM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Typing It is the content that is important and not the typos. Keep providing this great content. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:23 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Typing Sirs, In reading my posts, I have come to the reality that typing is not one of my strong suits. Perhaps conditioning of the hands prevents proper key strokes, but almost every post I have made has typos. Just thought I'd point that out before anyone else did. On this list, Being critical is far easier than being correct. ha ha. grace and peace, daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:28:59 -0500 From: Todd Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Choi, Hong Hi & Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Choi worked with Master Chung, Ki Tae who was a Hapkido/Taekwondo Master. What he taught was a combination of Taekwondo/Hapkido. He was very good when I met him. Todd --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Chicken or the Egg Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:07:19 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It was a combination of the factors you mentioned. The first was merely coincidence--they learned Judo/Jiu Jitsu from a Japanese immigrant. Following their initial exposure, however, they observed that many fights went to the ground, and many people were clueless once that happened, and developed their material in that direction. Then Rorion marketed it in the U.S. as filling a much needed/neglected niche. Then he proved it on pay per view. Since then thousands of BJJ students have proven it in thousands of situations. John >From: >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Chicken or the Egg >Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:49:07 -0600 (CST) > >Dear Folks: > >I seem to be getting mixed signals here. > >Did the Gracie people propose that 90% of fights end on the ground as a >function of their material? (ie: You WANT you fight to end up on the >ground!!) > >Did Gracie material follow function? (ie. a lot of fights end on the >ground so you better be prepared.) > >Did Gracie material respond in kind to a standard statistic? (ie. Somebody >said 90% of fights end on the ground so we ought to skew things that way >if we can.) > >Its just a marketing gimmick. (ie. maybe a lot of fights end up on the >ground. If they do we can capitalize on a weak spot in MA most folks don't >address.) Comments? > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:20:56 -0800 (PST) From: Troy Trudeau To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Old Time Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to thank Gm Timmerman for an absolutely great time while training in Canada, It was great to be able to train with Master Thomas,Master DeWitt,Master Orndorff, SBN Keatley,SBN Janisse,PSN Rhonda,PSN Keppers,KSN Milks and the rest of the "Dirty Dozen" as GM Timmerman put it, we had some really extensive training and had the oppertunity to scale 12 foot walls,run the an icy Lake Huron,ran in an obstacle course and so many other things that I cant hardly think , I would also like to Thank my group from TN that Came with me, Including PSN Coleman and JKN Stahl, I feel greatly honored to be able to train with one of the greatest GM's in the world, Gm Timmerman, I thank You and my students thank you for letting us be a part of an historical event, everyone in the "Dirty Dozen" trained hard , sweated for more than 12 hours a day, eat, slept and truly became a band of Martial Arts Brothers Sincerely, Troy Trudeau www.wtswa.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Almost total joke... Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:24:32 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ><<>experienced the pain side of some of them, by someone with experience, and >don't see anything funny about busted ribs or having my arm bent 90 degrees>in the wrong direction...>>> >I'll let John answer for himself since he made the "total joke" comment. >However, I'll offer some "compare and contrast" in terms of what I've seen ....  Basically, I echo Craig's sentiments. Yes, the locks all hurt, once fully applied. The situations for applying them are totally contrived and all but useless.  To further illustrate, let us depart from grappling and talk about striking. If someone can punch through 6 boards or some other circus feat, I am sure he can generate enough power to knock someone out. But that does not mean he will ever score a knockout in a real fight. Because power means nothing without timing, distance, etc. I have seen people with 6 months of boxing absolutely dismantle blackbelts, repeatedly.  Another important point re: effective grappling, KMA heavily emphasizes joint locks, but almost totally ignores effective chokes. Things that hurt in the dojang are often little more than annoying once you add adreneline, tequila, steroids, PCP, take your pick. I teach a lot of LEOs and they give me story after story of 160# men on PCP resisting and fighting with an officer on each wrist and ankle (4 officers total) twisting and wrenching with all their latest wrist and ankle locks. Joint locks/pain compliance do not work in many situations. Properly applied chokes, OTOH, end the problem in a manner of seconds, and are much more humane. John  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:49:00 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re waiting periods between belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my Do-Jang we test every three months. But if the student dosn't show up to at lest 3 classes per week he/she will not test. I'm not a belt factory or do I reel in the cash. I'm sort of old fashioned. Since I moved to California I can't seem to be able to actually "open" my school due to the lack thereof of money.. So My wife and I own a small yet humble Market and I teach in the rear of the store. I started with 10 students at $30.00 a month and some parents can't pay and most have quit. I made an arrangement with the one student that did stay. He cleans my windows and I don't charge him for class. Well I'm getting off the subject. Testing every month is stupid to me since you are out the $ on certificates and belts. If you have the money and patience to do that then so be it. I feel that it's a waste of time and effort to test every month. Takes away from quality training, that might be good for little children to show some motivation but with an adult it just dosn't seem right. My 2 cents. Maldonado Kwan Jang. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.* * Prices may vary by service area --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Schools in the Houston Area Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:58:10 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would highly recommend Master Mac's school, you may have seen him posting here on the DD. I have worked with him and his students and always learn from him, even if we are simply doing curls :) I did meet an instructor at the Kim Soo Karate in Spring. That is where GM Kim Soo teaches. I told the art is basically TKD with 7 Hapkido movements. I do not know the curriculum of either of these arts... but know Master McHenry and would have to say he would be my first choice. Kat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Ray Polk" To: Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 10:52 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Schools in the Houston Area > I am looking for a Hapkido School in the Houston area. I would prefer > something North, near Spring, TX. Years ago I studied Hapkido under GM Hyun > in Chicago. I am looking for a similar type school that emphasizes the > practical. I would prefer a school that concentrates on technique, not > forms. Forms were not part of my training in Chicago. If not Hapkido, is > there another art of similar philosophy in the area? I've looked into Kuk > Sool Won, Tang Soo Do, and others, but have not found what I am looking for. > I am too old to compete. I am looking solely for self defense. Any advice > would be welcome. Thank you. > > > > Gordon R. Polk > gpolk@houston.rr.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest