Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 06:01:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #521 - 18 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Shotokan TKD (Dr. Daryl Covington) 2. Re: Thomas (Dr. Daryl Covington) 3. Going to ground (michael tomlinson) 4. Guns training in martial arts (Jye nigma) 5. Re:converting korean to English (Steve H. Kim) 6. FW: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 7. "Korean" martial arts: the Manchurian connection (John Frankl) 8. General Choi's autobiography (Robert Martin) 9. Going to the ground (Rudy Timmerman) 10. 90% ground fight stats (tntcombatives@comcast.net) 11. Re: Stats on ending up on the ground (Pete Knox) 12. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_On-the-ground_stuff?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 13. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Meditation_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 14. Re: Re waiting periods between belts (eleusis) 15. Standardization of wtf forms (David Weller) 16. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chokes?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 17. RE: 90% of fights go to the (Kirk Lawson) 18. Re: Ground Fighting and BJJ (MJD1128@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:00:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Shotokan TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a personal student of Kang Rhee, I know his TKD is greatly Shotokan influenced. Many of the Pa Sa Ryu TKD forms are the same as Shotokan, with a Korean Flavor to the kicks. daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:06:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thomas Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas, I believe it was Craig that asked about the gun training, but I like your ideas none the less. I'm always open to things of which I may not have thought. Grace and peace, daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:12:22 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Going to ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig writes: Having some training in Gracie Jiu-jitsu myself, I can only say...you are correct. And yes, it's that very large kernel of DEMONSTRATED truth that people get stuck in their craw. People tend to get pissed when objective reality turns out to be different than what they were sold in the laboratory. Oh well, if the UFC or Pride ever includes a division that has to start the fight from a wrist grab, then some of these other folks can participate.>>>> I am a Hapkidoist first and foremost and I love the art but I have to agree with Craig's perceptions here. I know many Hapkido people who say they have ground fighting in their art but my thought is? How often and how hard do you practice them? Hey anything and everything works on paper, but if you don't get down and sweat it out and experiment then you don't know for sure. It seems some people want to mold the world to the training that is "conveinient" to them. Hey I'm sorry but real life isn't that convienient. Grappling and ground fighting is hard work. Last night in class we went at it for about a half hour. great cardio training.. I had part of my ear lobe tore loose from a hold... no big deal it will heal but it was bleeding real real good, and I didn't know it had even happened, I had a couple of "converted" martial artists from other styles I won't name.. in my Hapkido class now,, when they saw the blood on my neck and dobok they all shyed away and say HEY your bleeding and their eyes got real big,,, two of my black belts started laughing and say "no big deal we bleed in here all the time when we ground fight",, they look at us like were crazy.. my point to them was that when you fight for real there is gonna be blood and hard ground and it ain't gonna look like a friggin Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris movie,,, so get friggin used to it and friggin train for it!!! Don't talk about it just DO IT, and then you won't need to justify what you do or don't do, you'll just be tired and happy and sore!! p.s. try starting from a wrist grab and then end up on the ground grappling, that is fun training also _________________________________________________________________ >From the hottest toys to tips on keeping fit this winter, you’ll find a range of helpful holiday info here. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:31:29 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Guns training in martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was wondering somthing....in some martial arts you learn to disarm an opponent [armed with a gun], but I was wondering if anyone on this list attends a school that teaches how to shoot? I know certain ninjutsu schools as well as martial combat schools teach this. Also, do any of you think learning to use certain weapons will benefit you in learning how to defend against them? Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Steve H. Kim" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:43:42 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:converting korean to English Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John Thanks for the 411. Good stuff I can use. Take care Steve --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: FW: [The_Dojang] Shotokan influence on TKD? Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:10:55 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There are several sets of forms used by TKD players, The Pyong-Ahn forms, the Chang-Hon Forms, the Taeguek Forms, the Palgwe Forms, the Songahm Forms and the Jhoon Rhee Martial Ballet to name a few. Having spent 9 years in the army, I can tell you that you will definitely run into variation, not only in the different form sets, but in the way that individual schools practice the same sets. The WTF Taegeuk forms are very popular and you should be able to find people who practice them in most major cities. Regards, Jason > > Mr. Thomas, > You said the "influence is considerable, but varies dependent upon the > Kwan, > or the forms used by > each school." My understanding of TKD is that if we are learning WTF forms > they shouldn't vary from school to school. One standard. This issue is > important to me as I progress because as a soldier in the Army I will > likely > have to change schools and it would kind of suck to have to relearn all > the > forms. > Rich > Chicago Il. > Kaya Martial Arts --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:32:30 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] "Korean" martial arts: the Manchurian connection Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A large part of my dissertation was dedicated to exploring the various "foreign" bloodlines that made their ways into what is now considered Korea. One extremely prevalent group was the Jurchens (a Manchurian tribe). In fact, Yi Chiran (Jurchen name Turanchopmoga) was a very close friend of Yi Songgye, founder and first king of the Choson dynasty. He and many Jurchens were given Korean citizenship and high positions in the military due to their formidable military skills. The point I raised in my dissertation was that the myth of Korean racial purity was just that, a myth. Koreans are a mix of many bloodlines from as near as Manchuria and as far as Holland. The same, of course, is true for Korean martial arts. Both the Koryosa (History of the Koryo Dynasty) and the Choson wangjo sillok (Veritable Records of the Choson Dynasty), among many other Korean historical texts, document not only the arrival of countless visitors from abroad, but also their remaining and being naturalized in Korea. Many of them, the Dutch and the Jurchen, for example, were valued for their martial knowledge. Another little known fact, some 10,000 Japanese soldiers voluntarily surrendered to and later fought for Korea against Japan during the Hideyoshi invasions (1592-1598). Kim Ch'ungson is the most famous. It may have been through these soldiers that the section on Japanese swordsmanship made its way  into the MYTBTJ. John >From: "John Frankl" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Almost total joke... >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:24:32 +0900 > > ><<>experienced the pain side of some of them, by someone with >experience, and >don't see anything funny about busted ribs or having my >arm bent 90 degrees>in the wrong direction...>>> > > >I'll let John answer for himself since he made the "total joke" comment. > >However, I'll offer some "compare and contrast" in terms of what I've >seen ....  Basically, I echo Craig's sentiments. Yes, the locks all hurt, >once fully applied. The situations for applying them are totally >contrived and all but useless.  To further illustrate, let us depart from >grappling and talk about striking. If someone can punch through 6 boards >or some other circus feat, I am sure he can generate enough power to >knock someone out. But that does not mean he will ever score a knockout >in a real fight. Because power means nothing without timing, distance, >etc. I have seen people with 6 months of boxing absolutely dismantle >blackbelts, repeatedly.  Another important point re: effective grappling, >KMA heavily emphasizes joint locks, but almost totally ignores effective >chokes. Things that hurt in the dojang are often little more than >annoying once you add adreneline, tequila, steroids, PCP, take your pick. >I teach a lot of LEOs and they give me story after story of 160# men on >PCP resisting and fighting with an officer on each wrist and ankle (4 >officers total) twisting and wrenching with all their latest wrist and >ankle locks. Joint locks/pain compliance do not work in many situations. >Properly applied chokes, OTOH, end the problem in a manner of seconds, >and are much more humane. John?> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:47:43 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] General Choi's autobiography Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net General Choi's autobiography set for only $30 plus shipping/handling at http://www.ustf-itf.com/cart/enter.html. If you don't have copy this is the time to get it. Robert Martin --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:00:33 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Going to the ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin writes: > On the street, try not to get in position where five guys can jump on > you! Hello Dakin: It is easy to see by your statement that we come from the same root (GM Pak), because the only way I am happy is when ONE man goes to the ground (preferrably the OTHER man:). Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 From: tntcombatives@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:54:00 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] 90% ground fight stats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Exit lurk mode... Greetings All, I seem to remember that the LAPD conducted a use of force study several years ago that had the number in the 70% range. They continued to track the on-duty incidents while increasing/changing? officer training in the area of patrol combatives to include ground fighting/grappling instead of the punch-em-out-then-polyester-pile-them training. They found that the rate of fights that went to the ground increased to above 90%. If someone wants to dig for that study--more power to ya. I know that on duty when I get into a scrap, I always try to ground the suspect...in fact I think my % is about 100 for the last 7 years. I train my police students the same way. I just find it much easier to unbalance and toss someone (which can be done gently or accelerated) who is resistive rather than mess around in a stand up waltz. -- Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 06:37:16 -0500 From: Pete Knox To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Stats on ending up on the ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My understanding was that the 90% figure came from institutional fights involving law enforcement. In such a context, the high number makes sense, as a law enforcement officer would want to take someone to the ground so as to handcuff or otherwise immobilize them. Black Belt ran an article on this a few months back; they also mentioned that the non law enforcement number is most likely lower. Pete Knox ------------------------------------------------------------------------ peterknox@optonline.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 06:59:21 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_On-the-ground_stuff?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I saw something very interesting on the TV this morning and I thought I would share it for whatever comments people would like to make. The news show aired a story about people in their teens and early 20-s video taping fights of a sort of "fight club" type. What struck me was the all-out ferocity of those attacks. Discounting for a minute the fact that these were not actually fights in the sense of wanting to do permanent damage to another person I was struck at the all-out aggressive nature. It reminded me of a similar program I had seen once on prison "hits" where murder was done among inmates using ice-picks or "shanks". There also I was astounded by the savage speed at which these attacks were done. Add to that the fact that the kicking and punching and gouging never stopped even as people fell from a standing position to the ground and began rolling about. It brought to mind a couple of extremely aggressive sword styles from the Satsuma clan in southern Japan whose very defensive techniques are still aggressive strikes. There is, I think, a place in the typical KMA training that may not be meeting a need here. I wonder if folks want to comment on this based on their own training regimes. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:20:54 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Meditation_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rich: "......I have been doing TKD for just at a year now. To improve and hone my spirit I have been learning some about breathing methods of Zen but also reconnecting with my Christian spiritual roots......" Kudo-s for investing yourself in this manner. I would want to throw a couple of cautions your way to consider. 1.) The mind is much more powerful than most folks imagine. Regardless what nay-sayers might state, creative visualization, daily affirmations, the "power of suggestion", and mental imagery have all been used as methods of shaping consequences in the physical world. Probably the most common application is in the area of pain managment and terminal progressive illness such as cancer. For this reason I think its important to have a clear objective in mind as you begin such programs. 2.) Allow for accomodation. The four planes that make up the human person - -- body, intellect, emotion and spirit ARE all related of course, however each separate plane operates according to its own laws which may be similar to the laws of another plane but are certainly not identical. As You make changes in one plane other planes are influenced. That is after all what you are advocating and it is certainly a fact--- at least in my world. Meditation is more than sitting quitely contemplating a truth for a while and then getting up to go about your daily business. The physical act of sitting and contemplating is a way of incurring an influence whose effects will reververate at their own speed across all the planes of your person. Think of dropping a stone in a pond and waiting for the concentric rings to reach the shore from the middle and bounce back--- it takes time. Allow time for your meditation to work its influence both in the immediate (sufficent quiet time dedicated each day) but also in the extended time frame (a regular time designated for each day for, say, a month). FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "eleusis" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re waiting periods between belts Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:38:55 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Maldonado, Sounds to me like you are teaching in the original spirit of TKD. Ala, Karate Kid scenario. Its the dream of most students to find a personal instructor like you describe. What a nice little treasure you have created in your back room. Rich Kaya Martial Arts student Chicago Ill. ----- Original Message ----- From: Manuel Maldonado To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:49 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re waiting periods between belts In my Do-Jang we test every three months. But if the student dosn't show up to at lest 3 classes per week he/she will not test. I'm not a belt factory or do I reel in the cash. I'm sort of old fashioned. Since I moved to California I can't seem to be able to actually "open" my school due to the lack thereof of money.. So My wife and I own a small yet humble Market and I teach in the rear of the store. I started with 10 students at $30.00 a month and some parents can't pay and most have quit. I made an arrangement with the one student that did stay. He cleans my windows and I don't charge him for class. Well I'm getting off the subject. Testing every month is stupid to me since you are out the $ on certificates and belts. If you have the money and patience to do that then so be it. I feel that it's a waste of time and effort to test every month. Takes away from quality training, that might be good for little children to show some motivation but with an adult it just dosn't seem right. My 2 cents. Maldonado Kwan Jang. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.* * Prices may vary by service area _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:42:17 -0600 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Standardization of wtf forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 08:57 PM, eleusis" My understanding of TKD is that if we are learning WTF forms > they shouldn't vary from school to school. One standard. This issue is > important to me as I progress because as a soldier in the Army I will > likely > have to change schools and it would kind of suck to have to relearn > all the > forms. > Rich > Chicago Il. > Kaya Martial Arts > Sir, I have watched and participated in open TKD tournaments, and I would say that although the basic motions are the same from school to school, it is easy to note differences in techniques and some motions when comparing Taeguek forms from one school to another. You might not have to "re-learn" the form if you change schools, but you might very well have to make some adjustments to it to "fit in"... Standardization looks good on paper, but inject the ultimate variable, human beings, and things go differently... IMHO the right way is your teachers way, the wrong way is not. :) Just an observation whilst cleaning my shotgun.. have a groovy day, dave weller --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:32:12 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chokes?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John: "......I teach a lot of LEOs and they give me story after story of 160# men on PCP resisting and fighting with an officer on each wrist and ankle (4 officers total) twisting and wrenching with all their latest wrist and ankle locks. Joint locks/pain compliance do not work in many situations. Properly applied chokes, OTOH, end the problem in a manner of seconds, and are much more humane......." I had begun to thought that the use of chokes was being dissuaded in LEO training due to liability in training and on the street. Students hate those nights when I go into choke training, and I make sure that we always limit it to one or two techniques per night and intersperse it with very active techniques before and after to get people back to "the-here-and- now" before leaving class. Have guidelines for the use of chokes changed nationally or are you speaking of policies just in your immediate area? Are these techniques which incoporate the use of an item such as a baton? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 9:03:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 90% of fights go to the Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:59:21 -0500 > From: "Burdick, Dakin R" > To: > Subject: [The_Dojang] 90% of fights go to the ground > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net [snip] > Actually, no. At the article by Dossey at > http://www.defendu.com/10_bjj.htm, he mentions: "Both LAPD statistics > and the Gracie family assert that between 65 to 85 percent of > altercations eventually end up on the ground anyway." This is the same Brad Parker article, not a Dossey article. > Dossey himself > was a student of the Gracie stuff (taught in LAPD because of the > marvelous influence of Hollywood on American fighting styles), so his > "research" was really more in the line of supporting what the Gracies > were teaching. Huh? Are you suggesting that Dossey ingored altergations that didn't end up "on the ground" in order to skew his results? Seriously, I'm not a BJJ proponet or anything but let's be honest here. Exactly *how* could Dossey have stacked the deck to skew his results? > Brad Parker's "The Ten Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Moves Every > Cop Should Know" at > http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:6H65KhhAyigJ:scv1988.redi > rectme.net:64080/~fitzy/unarmed%2520combat/texts/Jujitsu%2520M > oves.pdf+ground+%22greg+dossey%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 had this to say: This is the same article as the first one you reference, though apparently a different version. I can't tell from casual reading which is the earlier. Regardless, they both have the same title and the exact same opening paragraph as well as the same author. > Of course, even if most fights did end up on the ground, that is NOT > where you should aim to be. The Gracies train for fighting one on one, > without weapons, for a title. Their stuff works for that. On the > street, try not to get in position where five guys can jump on you! I'm not interested in arguing the merits or demerits of "going to the ground" with you. My intention in replying to the original question of what the source of the "90% go to the ground" stat was to show the source of "stat." Again, from every verifiable source that I can find, 90% is an exaggeration of a "Most/two-thirds" stat (62%) often quoted by Rorian which was taken from a study of LAPD altercations by Sergeant Dossey. Since the inception of, goals during, and modus operandi of the LAPD for altercations are decidedly different from that of the average civilian I stated that the application of a stat for the LAPD to the general population was not valid (IIRC, I called it misapplied). If you wish to argue (as it appears from this post) that Sergeant Dossey's study for the LAPD was flawed or blatantly biased, you should take that up with both Dossey and the LAPD. Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 18 From: MJD1128@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:12:27 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ground Fighting and BJJ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/19/2003 11:14:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I'll let John answer for himself since he made the "total joke" comment. > However, I'll offer some "compare and contrast" in terms of what I've seen > in KMA and what I've seen in the "more respected" ground fighting arts (BJJ, > Judo, Satoru Sayama's Shooto, etc). > > > > A lot of the stuff I've seen in KMA does not assume a fully resisting > opponent (read: practiced exclusively in "uke & tori" fashion), nor does it > contain a technical base sufficient to deal with the natural progression of > a ground fight. Anybody can bust my ribs and bend my arm if I lay down and > play dead for them, and people don't just sit on your chest and wait for you > to grab their nads. > > > > Contrast this with what goes on in a BJJ school...it's nothing to see a 150 > lbs blue belt take a 250 lbs hyper-aggressive athletic idiot who's looking > to prove something, and basically play with them like a cat with a ball of > string. Seen it dozens of times, myself. To me, that's the very definition > of what a soft martial art should be. The nullification of strength and > aggression through technique and skill. The real application of real > technique in real time against real energy...the very definition of > aliveness. Of course, BJJ can also get pretty frigging agro when it needs > to be, as can shooto, Catch and Judo. But I digress... > > > > So in short...I wouldn't go so far as to say that ground fighting in KMA is > a total joke. Ignoring some of the total BS techniques that I've seen > taught, I've also seen a lot of the same arm bars and chokes that I see in > BJJ, et al. However, I would question the modality within which these > techniques are taught. If you can't do it in real time...you're kidding > yourself. And there's only one way to get it down in real time... > > > > To me, it's as much the training environment/culture as it is the technical > base. Actually, I'd go so far as to say that most people would be better > off just grabbing a willing partner and rolling at 80% intensity with no > formal training whatsoever, as opposed to spending countless hours of "when > they do this, you do this, and that's the end of the fight". At least > you're going to experience real time and real energy, and most people are > smart enough to figure out a lot of technical issues on their own. After > all, that's how Carlos Gracie and his brothers did it. It's not like they > spent decades studying with Maeda. > > > > Craig "That's My Opinion" Stovall > > > > Craig, I have never met you, but this is one of the best posts Ive ever read on here. There is actually someone on this list I agree with. What you said is right on. Ive trained in Hapkido ( 3 different Korean Masters / 2 American) for about 15 years and Ive done BJJ under Carlson Gracie in Chicago for about 5 years now (just got Purple Belt). The thing that makes BJJ so effective (as does wrestling boxing judo etc) is that we dont fight againt dead fish. We spar against opponents that fight back. That is how I train and teach Hapkido as well. Ive learned alot from the way the Gracies train. btw - someone(I dont remember which list member) said that BJJ was nothing more than sport point competition...Carlson Gracie teaches Vale Tudo (anything goes) Submission fighting, sport BJJ and Self Defense (similar to some Hapkido systems but only the stuff that works). We have had many people come in to "show us" how easy that can beat us...they usually join the school after they tap. Mark --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest