Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:54:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #522 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Chicken or the egg (Burdick, Dakin R) 2. RE: Chicken or the Egg (Stovall, Craig) 3. Shotokan TKD (Dennis McHenry) 4. Re: Ground Fighting and BJJ (Stovall, Craig) 5. BJJ et al (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Ground_Fighting_Citation?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Gracie seminar (Ray Terry) 8. Gun Stuff... (Eric Walker) 9. Re: Guns training in martial arts (Ray Terry) 10. Bruce's Fight Club (Stovall, Craig) 11. Re: Choi cajoled (Beungood@aol.com) 12. Real Fights... (Jye nigma) 13. Re: Bruce's Fight Club (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:49:22 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Chicken or the egg Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John Frankl wrote: It was a combination of the factors you mentioned. The first was merely coincidence--they learned Judo/Jiu Jitsu from a Japanese immigrant. Following their initial exposure, however, they observed that many fights went to the ground, and many people were clueless once that happened, and developed their material in that direction. Then Rorion marketed it in the U.S. as filling a much needed/neglected niche. Then he proved it on pay per view. Since then thousands of BJJ students have proven it in thousands of situations. My reply: Not quite. The Japanese immigrant they learned from was a judo champion who earned his living travelling around the world fighting one-on-one challenge matches. He specialized in groundwork, since he fought catch-as-catch-can wrestlers a lot. And the Gracies carried on his tradition. And yes Bruce, a lot of the Gracie people will try to hug you and pull you to the ground. Silly, but true. Does anyone remember the Japanese guy whose opponent LAID DOWN on the ground and waited for him to grapple? I can't remember his name, but he endeared himself to me forever by jumping up in the air and stomping the guy's head. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:02:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Chicken or the Egg Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> It's a bit complex, but here's the abbreviated version of my take on the facts. The Gracies studied under Maeda who was a Kodokan trained Judoka. This was during the time when the ground game was much stronger in the Kodokan tradition, and hadn't yet been watered down due to the restrictive nature of Olympic style competition (stand them up as soon as they hit the mat). So, I believe he passed on a strong appreciation for ground fighting to the Gracies. Maeda was also a fighting man who tested his skills against a variety of fighters, and it is believed that his personal method leaned toward forcing a clinch and then bringing the man down to where a submission could be rendered. This probably had a profound impact on Carlos, et al. One also has to consider the size of the Gracies. None of them were large men...I believe Helio never topped 130. Since they zealously carried on Maeda's tradition of testing the art against all comers (under the banner of Jiu-jitsu), it makes sense that they had to further refine their method to what worked best within the confines of their physical limitations. To be brief, it makes more sense for a 130 lbs man to try and take a large man to the ground, rather than stand and trade punches...again we see another gravitation toward the ground game. Their stature not only led them to emphasize floor fighting, but also heavily influenced the nature of that fighting itself. You can see this in the central philosophy of "position before submission", the highly developed use of the guard, efficient escapes from every position, etc. This is the grappling that a 130 lbs man would have developed. The beauty is that it works great for all sizes. Contrast this with something like Gotch submission grappling (run over them like a freight train, and submit from any position), which was influenced by a very large man who approached physical conditioning like some sort of masochistic religion. Finally, these were very practical men. For better or worse, they were searching for the best method of beating up another human being, and not trying to carry on some contrived tradition for the sake of personal development. To put it bluntly, I believe they recognized the fact that most fights (regardless of training) involve a quick closing of the gap, a brief grapple at the standing clinch range, and finally both people going to the ground (intentional or otherwise). They sought to accelerate this natural progression by specializing in the forced clinch, where they could take the man to the ground, dominate the position, and either strike, lock, or choke their way to victory. In short, the answer to all of your questions (except number 3) is...yes. The material they were given was biased toward fighting on the ground (if Maeda was a gung-fu man things might be different today). In their Vale Tudo fights against all comers, they recognized the tendency for fights to go to the ground, and this further enforced the need for refinement in that area. I don't believe they "worked from statistics". They just followed their own experience. Finally, Rorion Gracie did indeed see an opportunity to market ground grappling as an alternative to a lot of the stuff being marketed as self-defense, and he hasn't been shy about telling people how great his family art is. Keep in mind, this guy taught out of his garage here in the U.S. for a decade before the UFC was ever thought of. It didn't take him long to figure out that a lot of the martial artists coming to him for instruction didn't know squat about a real fight, much less fighting on the ground. Thus we got an infomercial for Gracie Jiu-jitsu in 1993 known as the UFC. Now in fairness, the Gracies aren't all about the ground. The original self-defense curriculum that comes down from Carlos and Helio deals almost totally with stand-up fighting, and we see very little of what is now recognized as sport BJJ or Vale Tudo technique. I've done some of it, and seen most of it. My opinion is that it is VERY good stuff. You still see a lot of this being taught by the more well-rounded BJJ teachers, but a lot now specialize almost exclusively in sport BJJ and Vale Tudo. I believe the self-defense curriculum is still heavily emphasized at the Torrance academy. Ironically enough, this curriculum helps teach one how NOT to be taken to the ground from the standing position. I think they have a tape out on this stuff called "Gracie: Episode One" or something. The free tape that came with their original "Basics" set also covers this stuff. To me, it would fit seamlessly with a lot of folks' Hapkido or Hoshinsul curriculums, and would provide a useful supplement. Just my opinion. Really...don't get too hung up on the 90% comment. Rorion is very proud of his family's art, and believes in it's efficacy. The 90% thing is just him trying to sell you a tape. Don't make a fuss over it. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:43:29 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dennis McHenry Subject: [The_Dojang] Shotokan TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" <> This basically describes TangSooDo as well :-) TangSooDo forms are much closer to ShotoKan than the Pa Sa Ryu forms I've seen Master Jackie Smith do, but they come from the same root. Mac ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:51:03 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ground Fighting and BJJ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark writes, <<>> Well, kudos on the purple belt. That's a very respectable mile marker in my book, for what it's worth. On a personal note, I have no aspirations of ever becoming a black belt in GJJ/BJJ, but one of my personal goals that I want to accomplish before it's all said and done is to reach a good purple belt level of grappling...both with and without the gi. So, I'm very envious of the skill level you've attained. I'm assuming that's Carlson Jr. in Chicago, yes? Have never met anyone from that crew, but I've heard they earn those belts the old fashioned way...long hard work on the mat. You're very fortunate. You also echo something that I talked about a few months ago when you talk about the fact that you've added some aliveness to your Hapkido training. It's unfortunate, but many people abandon their art when they perceive it as being useless on a technical level, and then go on to pursue BJJ, silat, Jailhouse Rock, or whatever else they perceive as being the hot thing to do. You sound like you're doing exactly what I tell people...don't give up on swimming just because you learned the strokes on dry land and you go straight to the bottom whenever you jump into the deep end of the pool. The truth is that I have no doubt that a lot of what Hapkido (and other arts) espouses works in real time. The problem is that a lot of practitioners want to spend all their time in the warm fuzzy confines of non-resistive practice. Then whenever they do stick their toe into aliveness, they either retreat back to the comfort of the old way, or make the mistake of giving up the art "because this crap doesn't work". If you want to learn to swim...you must add water. If you want to fight functionally in real time...you must add aliveness. I don't know how you guys do it at Carlson's, but I'm assuming it's like most BJJ programs. You spend time doing drills and technical work...working the takedowns, positions, escapes, and submissions with a cooperative or semi-resistant partner. Then at the end of class...you roll. My fear is that a lot of grappling styles never roll, and therefore they miss out on the important lessons that you get from training in an alive manner. Sound about right? CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:03:18 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: "Dojang Digest" Subject: [The_Dojang] BJJ et al Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For John Frankl -- Your dissertation sounds like a good read -- what is the citation? For Rudy Timmerman -- I'm actually pretty happy I never had to train with Pak. I think he would have torn me up! But I'm glad that Will Widmeyer went through all that and then kept the torch going! Kirk Lawson wrote: This is the same Brad Parker article, not a Dossey article. My reply: Oops! You're right! My mistake! Kirk also wrote: Are you suggesting that Dossey ingored altergations that didn't end up "on the ground" in order to skew his results? My reply: No. I'm suggesting that his practice of BJJ perhaps influenced the design and reasoning of his argument. If he studied BJJ, his belief going into the study would be that people go to the ground. Rather than confirming that, I suggest that a better research topic might have been to figure out how to avoid going to the ground. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:03:32 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Ground_Fighting_Citation?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....I'm not interested in arguing the merits or demerits of "going to the ground" with you. My intention in replying to the original question of what the source of the "90% go to the ground" stat was to show the source of "stat." Again, from every verifiable source that I can find, 90% is an exaggeration of a "Most/two-thirds" stat (62%) often quoted by Rorian which was taken from a study of LAPD altercations by Sergeant Dossey....." I'm not interested in debating the stat or the use of ground fighting. I was simply interested in knowing where this much represented stat came from. It seems to pop-up so casually in seminars and presentations. I seem to be reading that the source is either Parker or Dossey but in either case the represented % was exaggerated from 60 to 90. Am I even close? I am also still not certain if the focus, then, is to willfully take the offender off their feet as a tactic, or to simply know what to do should one be taken down when attacked. I read that at least one person who responded actually sought to take the attacker to the ground rather than deal with the altercation standing. My guess is that a large portion of that motive comes from wanting to subdue the person rather than incapacitate or damage him, yes? BTW: I don't know how relevant this is to the discussion but Hapkido does have its ground fighting, and so does Kumdo. In either case it is not as though one would actual seek to combat another person under those circumstance but rather is responding to a situation in which one finds themselves (ie. position of disadvantage). In this way, I don't know that I would be disposed towards purposely taking a person to the ground, but if thats where we wound up I would need to be able to deal with it. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:33:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Gracie seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fyi, a few years ago I attended a Carley Gracie seminar (via ATAMA) in San Francisco. I thought it interesting that one of the first things he presented was a good stiff side kick and a back kick. It seems they don't only do ground fighting. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:38:35 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gun Stuff... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi again Jye, You asked: " I was wondering somthing....in some martial arts you learn to disarm an opponent [armed with a gun], but I was wondering if anyone on this list attends a school that teaches how to shoot? I know certain ninjutsu schools as well as martial combat schools teach this. Also, do any of you think learning to use certain weapons will benefit you in learning how to defend against them? Jye" Our instructor is also an IPSEC shooter (refer to my previous post to you for his KMA credentials). He also lives out in the country and has a shooting range on his land. He encourages any of us that would like to go shooting at his place. In fact I was there just a few weeks ago. He gave me a very nice Italian holster for my Walther PP, and implied that he would like me to get my concealed carry permit to go along with my coming 1st dan test. We also happen to live in a VERY conservative part of North Florida. There is a large testing/development Air Force base next door, and most people around here tend to be armed or at least had experience with firearms. Even our youngest member (16 year old girl) has target .22 experience. All of the rest of us own at least one gun. We haven't practiced any of the disarming techniques in class yet, but I know they are coming. I have sort of picked up on the fact that you live in a major city (?). I guess it's not as easy to find an outdoor place to practice your shooting, but I would suggest that you look into an indoor range. There certainly isn't anything scary or weird about guns, as someone had mentioned earlier, they are simply tools. Familiarization with the tool helps to de-mystify and to learn to train for situations where they may be used against you. Like Master West said, if you have a familiarization with the weapon, whether it be a knife or gun, stick or sword, you minimize the "OH SH*T!" factor when facing it in real life. Just my two cents worth... Sincerely, Eric --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Guns training in martial arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:40:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I was wondering somthing....in some martial arts you learn to disarm an > opponent [armed with a gun], but I was wondering if anyone on this list > attends a school that teaches how to shoot? I know certain ninjutsu schools > as well as martial combat schools teach this. Also, do any of you think > learning to use certain weapons will benefit you in learning how to defend > against them? Yes, after a fashion... As a California and NRA certified firearms instructor (and a certified instructor of instructors), I teach firearms safety as well as tactical use. I make this info available to our students in separate training sessions. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:05:47 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's Fight Club Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> One can argue the technical preparations needed to deal with such a violent encounter until blue in the face, but I'll take a different bent. I'll offer that most martial artists are not physically and mentally conditioned to deal with such sudden ferocity. I'll skip the mental and go straight to the physical. It is my humble opinion that most martial artists are preparing for a sprint by training for a marathon. By that I mean, countless hours of drilling kicks and punches up-and-down the floor in an aerobic, steady-state fashion is not going to cut it when it's time to jump in the sandbox and lay the hammer down. Every fight I've ever seen was more akin to running a 400 meter dash than running the 5,000 meters. People fight more often than not because they are pissed off, drunk, or high...and that means they want to hurt you RIGHT NOW, not five rounds from now. So, I would urge anyone who's interested in getting ready for the type of violence that Bruce saw, to take a look at their training and make adjustments. If you are spending too much time in the oxidative metabolic pathway (read: doing aerobic exercise/work), then it is not likely you will have the speed, strength, and explosiveness needed to physically dominate an adrenaline charged attacker who is desperately trying to set a world record in terms of time required to beat your ass to the ground. You've got two other energy pathways folks...the phosphagenic and glycolytic (read: anaerobic). Unfortunately, most people don't want to tread this ground. Muscle fatigue and oxygen debt are both a screaming bitch, but if you want to be strong, fast, and explosive that's the price you're going to have to pay. Personally, I have moved almost completely away from what most people refer to as "cardio training"...steady state aerobic training sustained over a time frame exceeding 3 minutes. I've replaced this type of training with intervals...short bouts of intense activity with rest or mild activity placed in between. Also, weight bearing exercise that is borrowed from power lifting, Olympic lifting, and kettlebelling has become a core piece of my conditioning. Finally, I like to sprint distances between 200 and 400 meters, and occasionally burn out an 800 meter for true torture. From this, I have gained substantial strength and explosiveness, muscular endurance, an increased VO2 max, and a heightened ability to recover from physical work in an extremely short time frame. Add to this reduced body fat, and the addition of lean, dense muscle mass...I couldn't be happier. I do this because my definition of fitness has changed in recent months, the things I want to accomplish in the martial/athletic sphere require strength and power, and my ability to survive a mugging is more highly correlated with how much I can power clean as opposed to how many thousands of kicks I do each month, IMHO. I know everybody looks for the technical magic bullet (I know I did), but I'm afraid that Mother Nature is far smarter than all of the 10th degree black belts who ever lived. In the evolutionary mosh pit of intra-species combat..."bigger, faster, stronger" wins most of the time. Of course, this ignores "meaner and sneakier"...but that's a different story. He, he. Keep in mind I'm not just talking about auxiliary conditioning that is separate from your technical training. Instead of doing 3-minute rounds on the heavy bag, make that 30-second rounds with the object to be as fast and intense as possible. And it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. I have no problem with marathon training sessions. The problem comes when you never get into the anaerobic pathways. Find the balance that works for you, given your personal goals. If one of your goals is to be able to deal with a violent attack...then I believe my advice has merit. Craig "Meaner, Smarter, Prettier" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:12:10 -0500 From: Beungood@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Choi cajoled Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/19/2003 11:22:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Even Choi himself did not use the term DRAJJ but did use "yawara" > until cajoled into using a different term by subsequent > generations of > students I have a hard time digesting this one. With the way respect ,face and senority is in Korea, especially back in the early developmental years of Hapkido,I cannot see younger junior Blackbelts or Masters Questioning Choi Yun Sul on what to call Hapkido or "cajoling" him for that matter. I couldnt see anyone doing it now adays either. JAck --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:29:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Real Fights... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can say from my experiences, and from what I've seen.... In real fights no one is trying to be in it for a long time. I can remember many many many times I got in a fight and it was over almost as fast as it started. Then in fights I've been in on a larger scale [where more then 2 people were involved], I was fighting a guy and made a critical mistake [had my people not been there] and got the best of the guy and got on top of him to deliver an a$$ kicking that sent him to the hospital. Now the critical mistake I made was taking the fight to the ground, and although I had the upper hand on him [to the third degree] it was a critial error on my behalf because he had his people around and while I was on top of him and he was screaming "someone get this ni**er off of me" my emotions took over and my awareness of the surroundings vanished and my only thought was to kill this racist so and so, and where the error comes in is that I started getting hit and kicked from behind. One of those hits could have easily been a knife in my back. Fortunately [for me and him], my people were there to get all the people behind me away from me, and to get me off of him. Now the point of this story is to let everyone know, that learning ground fighting is a good tool to have, but it can be very dangerous as well espeically out in the street. Also, to allow our emotions to take over where we've been taught to be in control of them is also a big mistake. Now looking back at this, I think all training went out the window when he called me the 'N' word. I have to admit, that is one of the only areas where if said to me, I will kill a man without thought. But in doing so, it shows lack of training, discipline, etc. Another area I want to touch on is training. At the time I had a mixture of training (traditional, non traditional/unconventional) and looking back on many fights I've had only elements of my training were used. It seems to me that the most I've used in actual fights where we are trying to do serious damage to the other person was knowledge of structural weaknesses of the body, and the weapons to use against them. For instance, I had a quick exchange of words with a guy, he attempted to put his hands on me and I struck him swiftly in the temple with an extended knuckle, and that immediately stopped the situation. So I think we should learn as much as possible, train the most practical and efficient ways, and hone our tactics, because you never know when you'll need them, and most times it may not be as cut and dry as in the dojang. *I remember walking down the street with a friend at night, a car comes skidding passed us, both doors open up and 2 guys attempt to fight my friend. So it could come in the blink of an eye, we just have to try to stay in control mentally, and fight viciously smart. Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:52:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bruce's Fight Club To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This reminds me of something one of my friends witnessed. A guy was picking on this white kid, i think because the kid took his seat. My friend knew the guy pickin on the white kid and told him to leave him alone he wasn't bothering anyone....well he kept picking with the kid and I guess threatened him, and as fast as you can blink, the quiet white kid jumped up, pinned the black guy against the wall (arm to throat) pulled out a knife continuously stabbing him. He ran away and my friend said he stayed with the guy helping keep is insides....in. Terrible, and although the guy was to blame for starting this situation, he quickly learned just how fast death comes knocking at the door. I think the best thing or tool we can develop is our awareness of our environment. Call it paranoid, but I take a mental note of everyone I see approaching me, behind me, around me, etc. I try to remember specific things about each person. I've always done this #1from being involved in the wrong side of things #2 from being from the city, and #3 because I heard in a study that people of different races are more likely to mistake someone of a different race in a crime. BAsically they say that people of the same race remember specific information about each other, but don't really remember specific info about other races. But this can be remedied by practicing trying to remember specific info about a person. So I try to 'survey' the area and take in as much as possible. Hey it's saved me in a gang war, and from going to prison for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time! Jye "Stovall, Craig" wrote: One can argue the technical preparations needed to deal with such a violent encounter until blue in the face, but I'll take a different bent. I'll offer that most martial artists are not physically and mentally conditioned to deal with such sudden ferocity. I'll skip the mental and go straight to the physical. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest