Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:15:10 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #524 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Gracie seminar (John Frankl) 2. Re: Bruce's Fight Club (John Frankl) 3. Re: Marketing gimmick (John Frankl) 4. Old Time Training Week (Kevin Janisse) 5. Carlson Gracie BJJ in Chicago (MJD1128@aol.com) 6. Master Nabors (michael tomlinson) 7. aau/TKD History (Lyle Locke) 8. Re: Hapkido Legends and myths (Hapkido Self Defense Center) (Jesse Segovia) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mediatation_Techniques?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. ATL not a city?!?!? (Eric Walker) 11. Re: BJJ proved on TV? (John Frankl) 12. Ground Fighting (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 13. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_on_the_ground?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 14. Re: ATL not a city?!?!? (Jye nigma) 15. gun disarm (pranab banik) 16. Re: Ground Fighting (John Frankl) 17. Hapkido Styles? (Gordon Ray Polk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gracie seminar Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:38:43 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good point, Ray. And, like most martial arts, there is some variety among BJJ teachers. For what it's worth, Carley is fairly far from the mainstream. That is not a value judgement; those are for individual students to make. Some will like his approach more than the mainstream. On a personal/empirical note, his students tend to fair poorly when rolling at other academies. John >From: Ray Terry >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) >Subject: [The_Dojang] Gracie seminar >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:33:15 -0800 (PST) > >fyi, a few years ago I attended a Carley Gracie seminar (via ATAMA) >in San Francisco. I thought it interesting that one of the first things >he presented was a good stiff side kick and a back kick. > >It seems they don't only do ground fighting. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bruce's Fight Club Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:42:05 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig is right on! Craig, are you doing CrossFit? You really sound like a CrossFitter! My academy has BJJ and CrossFit under the same roof--a rockin' combination. For those who understand just how important what Craig is saying is, check out www.crossfit.com. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Marketing gimmick Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:47:15 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net  So it may only be 70%--is that a reason not to train it? As for multiple attackers, you are no safer on your feet UNLESS you are running, which any intelligent person would do. But if you choose or are forced to stand and fight, you are still screwed. Yes, you can be stomped if you are on the ground. But you can't be blindsided from directly behind you with a bottle or knife. Both situations have their undesirables. John >I think alot of it IS a marketing gimmick. On my job Ive been to countless fights and I don't think it wa 90% in favor of going to ground. Every confrontation is dynamic and unpredictable. Our training should hel;p us avoid , no? I can't see letting anyone commit and take me to the ground before I mount my defense. What about multiple attackers? > >Jack ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 18:35:23 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Time Training Week Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, I recently returned from a week long training session with Grandmaster Timmerman. This training included several days of 10:00AM to 10:00PM seminar style teaching sessions with a group of excellent Martial Artists who have been accepted to become personal students of Grandmaster Timmerman. This group included the following persons: Master Troy Trudeu, Master Garrett DeWitt, Master Jason Thomas, Master John Orndorff, PSB Rich Wojan, PSB Richard Coleman, PSN Karmon Keppers, KSN Kevin Milks, KSN Kat Kelly, KSN Chris Demanaeus, JKN John Stahl, Jenny Arias, Phil Hornsey, I was very impressed at the overall ability that these individuals displayed in their ability to learn a great deal of material over a short period of time. Grandmaster Timmerman challenged us all with detailed description and application of techniques and forms each day and night. On Friday we headed (even further north) to St. Joes Island for a run through an obstacle coarse which included a 2 KM run to a 12 ft wall which everyone was required to climb over, maneuvering through two rows of tires on all fours, a pole toss, a cable cross (on top and inverted), a hand-to-hand ladder cross (forward then backwards), and finally a swim in Lake Huron (about 34 degrees F at the time). The weekend was wrapped up with a test over the new material presented including a fitness warm-up (stride jumps, sit-ups, finger tip push-ups, crunches, burpees, ect.). At the end of the test Master Dewitt and PSN Keppers treated us with an excellent display of TKD forms. I would like to thank all of you who joined us for this event. It was an honor teaching and learning along with you. I walked away with new principles on techniques and movements I have had for over 18 years which again goes to prove the depth of Grandmaster Timmermans expertise and knowledge. There is one more important item that needs to be mentioned....All of the above persons wore a white belt throughout the week. This, I believe, represents an all but lost display of character and humility which is greatly needed in today's world of Martial Arts for the meek shall inherit the earth. I will soon have a page with pictures on the www.nkmaa.com site. Please check next week. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 5 From: MJD1128@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:54:12 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Carlson Gracie BJJ in Chicago Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I don't know how you guys do it at Carlson's, but I'm assuming it's like > most BJJ programs. You spend time doing drills and technical work...working > the takedowns, positions, escapes, and submissions with a cooperative or > semi-resistant partner. Then at the end of class...you roll. My fear is > that a lot of grappling styles never roll, and therefore they miss out on > the important lessons that you get from training in an alive manner. Sound > about right? > Yes Craig, its Carlson Gracie Jr. and Carlson Gracie Sr. (Sr. moved here about 1 1/2 years ago). The class is exacly how you describe. We spar for 1/2hr to 1hr each class. I go for 2 no gi and 3 gi classes per week. I also take a private lsson with Sr. or Jr. once per week (I alternate) The sparring sessions are usually 5-10 min (depending on Sr's mood and I usually spar 5 or 6 rounds a day. Sr is also very heavy into the self defense aspect and my Hapkido reflects it. I teach a Hapkido program on Wednesday night and Sat morning there. As far as earning the belt...when Carlson Gracie Sr. put the Purple around my waist...it was one of the proudest moments of my martial arts career. I hope I can defend it.. lol. Its very hard training and Ive met the toughest guys Ive ever trained with...but its an awesome school and I love training there. I agree with some of the other posts..there is alot more to BJJ than ground fighting. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:26:25 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Nabors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My good luck and prayers go out to Master Nabors who is deploying to Bagdad this week. As some of you know Master Nabors is employed by the SOCOM and CENTCOM agencies and he has recieved info that he is to leave this week for not so greener pastures far away from the Tampa Bay area and McDill...... Good Luck Master Nabors and Godspeed on your journey and work.. see you when you get back brother.... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lyle Locke" To: Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:22:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] aau/TKD History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well I don't believe that all people think that people who belong to ITF are commies .As fair as Mr. Moon goes well all I can say is that I hope his students are more open minded then he is .See what people need to remember that taekwondo is an art no matter if its ITF ,WTF,GTF ,AAU etc. We must keep all are personal political believes out of it.As most of you know most older tkd masters started out doing a form of tkd before there was ITF or WTF every one fails to realize before 1955 there was no TAEKWONDO as far as the name TAEKWONDO goes So we all have to thank GEN Choi Hung Hi for at least giving the name as far as the two federations go well ITF was first then in 1973 WTF was born .I think all TaekwonDo Students should learn the history of TKD because no were in the history of the art does it say anything about being a member of any political form . Just My Thoughts thank you Lyle Locke llocke@twcny.rr.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:32:46 -0500 From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido Legends and myths (Hapkido Self Defense Center) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sure, Jere, but look at the Hapkido all these people teach. Do you really see a substantial difference between KukWoolWon, HwaRangDo and GM Ji's Hapkido? There's little doubt the Hapkido taught and demonstrated officially by the KHF, Hwang DukKyu's KHA, Myung KwangSik's WHF and lots of IHFs (Han BongSoo, Cho WonSang, etc.) are the same art. Sure, the Grandmaster may have studied with someone else, he may even have added his own outside techniques into the art. But from everything I've seen, the majority of Hapkido instructors still basically teach GM Ji's curriculum. Jesse From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" >To: >Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:14:14 -0500 >Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Legends and myths >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Sorry Ray, you say this every year, and every year I just shake my head.:) I >am still not buying it. I have met hapkidoin who studied before Ji Han Jae, >and there many who learned with another lineage before and after Ji Han Jae >without his influence (after all, two of Choi Young Sul's first 10 students >are still alive, I believe #1&8). So I still do not buy it. Maybe mainstream >hapkido in the US), but I think you are making up the %:) Even for the sake >of argument, lets say the 90% claim was true, What about their other >teachers? Ji would not have been there only teacher. Excuse my annual >rebuttal:) Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:05:13 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mediatation_Techniques?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rich: ".....Thank you for your input. What method do you personally use? Breath counting, vision fixation or closed eyes? Suggestions?....." Meditation techniques fall into roughly two categories: meditation with seed and meditation without seed. If you find yourself focusing on some THING even if that thing is to have no thing in your consciousness, you are doing meditation with seed. The most common form is shikentaza, or counting the breaths and this can be done a few different ways. It is probably the most basic technique a person new to meditation might use. For people who started their meditation experience with Transcendental Meditation, the use of a mantra is common. You can also contemplate a visual pattern such as a mandala, but nothing says that one cannot substitute Christian imagry or thought as their seed. For myself, I have transitioned to meditation without seed which is to say that I allow the brain to fall to its natural state of "no-thing". Some might be quick to tell you that in my case that is not THAT much of a descent. :-) The challenge in this approach is that toxic material from the day can work greater interference. On those occasions when Life has sent me more than my share of lemons it takes considerably more time and effort to make the requsite lemonade. Its not at all uncommon to have to redouble my meditation, first performing the counting of breaths, 5 minutes of walking meditation or recitation, followed by a second meditation period of quiet. These are the time when a sangha, or community are most important. The affirmation of doing something in concert with others serves as a kind of crutch and it is for good reason that the Buddha repeatedly placed high priority on the community and its harmony. As you begin your efforts to incorporate meditation in your spiritual practice I would strongly recommend that you gather with like-minded folks and perhaps even make it a weekly gathering focused on a particular theme and with attendant scripture, anecdotal material or images to facilitate the atmosphere. I would not recommend that the experience include food, or if food is a must, wai until after your meditation period. We all know about that tendency to sleep after eating. I would keep the room cool and quiet, perhaps dim, but certainly not dark. Eyes open, for me is problematic but thats not to say that this is true for everyone. I hope this is of some help. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:24:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] ATL not a city?!?!? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jye, Man I left the ATL in 1996; it was getting to be too much of a city for me. Any how my cousin is a photographer for the AJC (his by-line is Ben Gray), well anyhow after 9/11 and the ten days he spent in Manhattan with the nose bleeds and the crazy chaos, he was on stand-by to go to Pakistan. This was before the war with the Taliban or any retaliation what-so-ever. I asked him if he was going to carry, because I would want to if I were sent there. He said it would conflict with his role as a journalist. He's got s large set if-you-know-what-I-mean... I don't think anyone would have told him he couldn't...but I'm not sure. Anyhow where do you train in the ATL? I'm through there all the time and would like to poke my head in on somebody with a different point of view. Eric --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] BJJ proved on TV? Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:41:25 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To your first question, almost certainly. If rules are removed, imagine the following. You are mounted. You are unable to escape from this position. In desparation you bite, or eye gouge, or whatever. It does not kill your opponent. It does anger him, and escalate the level of violence. He can then return 1,000 fold whatever tactics you employed. The difference? He is in a position to do it effectively and continuously, whereas you are only in a position to suffer. As to the multiple attackers, neither could I. Circumstances dictate tactics.  OTOH, if you are a skilled grappler you will have an exponentially greater chance of remaining on your feet. If you are not, you are relying on dumb luck and wishful thinking. John >I have to dis-agree with this statement. He did win the MATCH under controlled conditions, with RULES. Would he still have won if other techniques were allowed to be used? I couldnt see falling to the ground to end a confrontation with more than one opponent. > >Jack >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online --__--__-- Message: 12 From: To: Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 18:43:26 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ground Fighting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was looking through John Perkin's book "Attack Proof" about his thoughts on ground fighting. He was a NYC police officer involved in over a 100 "serious, violent, armed, and unarmed confrontations. Although he was highly skilled in Native American ground fighting techniques (nasty stuff) he went to the ground in less than 10% of the confrontations. He says intending to go to the ground is a potentialy fatal way of thinking for at least 5 reasons: 1.You eliminate the simplest form of self-defense-running away. 2. On the ground, your advantages of upright balance and rooting become negated-bad news if your opponent outweighs you by 100 pounds. 3. The real world is not covered in soft mats. 4. Weapons eliminate most grapplng techniques. 5. With standard grapplng, you can fight only one opponent at a time. He also quoted a letter from a Bradley Steiner: "During WWII, with the exception of Jack Dempsey, virtually every single unarmed and hand-to-hand combat instructor for the United States, Canadian, French, and British forces had a formidable and core background in wrestling, judo, ju-jutsu-yet every single one of those instructors deliberately minimized, played down, and de-emphasized all grappling in favor of basic, simple blows, when preparing men for war. Why? Well, why do you think? Some of these experts, like Pat (Dermont) O'Neil and Wiliam Ewart Fairbairn, were literally the first Caucasian ju-jutsu/judo black belts, respectively. Fairbairn had personally participated in more than 600 deadly encounters (armed and unarmed) prior to WWII, when he was Commissioner of the Shanghai Municiple Police! Don't you think that man knew what real combat required?" Any questions? Randall Sexton "Results are the best proof of ability." --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:33:18 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_on_the_ground?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John: "......Secondly, I find the fact that post-UFC you see TKD guys like Hee Il Cho and Wing Chun guys like Emin Boztepe shamelessly marketing their arts' heretofore secret ground fighting techniques. This reveals tremendous insecurity in what they do. They are terrified because they know they would be all but helpless on the ground....." First off, thanks for responding with the information about the chokes. I really appreciate your thoughts on that. The second thing is that what you are describing about various folks in the MA is a whole lot more prevalent than most practitioners will admit. I don't know for a fact that it stems from insecurity though I am sure that plays a role. What I see is folks wanting to either keep marketshare or expand what they have from a sort of "oh, we have that too" point of view. This and many other similar penchants are the sort of things that drive questions of mine like the one that I asked not too long ago--- "Why do we still call what we teach a martial art?" Like our modern forces, warriors of old were expected to use the weapon that they were given to use. H2H was what you used as a last ditch do-or- die remedy. The observation is made many times that mthand is not appropriate for the battlefield but it did help the soldiers to better handle their weapons. It also raised self-confidence and conditioning. Yet noone expected warriors to go mano y mano with their enemy except in dire circumstances. The other point is that material in Hapkido arts is not exhaustive, regardless of what people say. To take up this view is to agree to a lifetime of being tied to your teachers apron strings. The handful of grounded techniques that are characteristic of most curriculums need to be seen for what they are, an invitation to learn more. In my own case I left my GM's knowledge of sword in the dust someways back. Somebody else who learns a Hapkido art may become passionate about pressure point work or cane work---- or ground fighting. Tradition says that the legendary monks of the Northern tradition learned that in time there was just too much to learn for one person to master it all. Their solution was to introduce all students to all of the material and in time the student would be drawn to a couple or a few of those separate traditions. The solution, as I see it is that if a person finds a shortcoming in their art and decides to address that by using material from another art go ahead. Just don't make like the stuff that is added from somewhere else was really there all the time--- hidden as it were. In time, if enough people see the validity maybe the change will become permanent. In the meantime its pretty arrogant and pretty unnecessary to initiate a "new" art just because one person thinks he is eligible to correct tradtions that are generations old. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:16:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ATL not a city?!?!? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yeah I got to ATL a year after you left. It's growing and will eventually be busier than LA and NYC but for now it's not my idea of a city yet. I basically train at home, but know of some great schools you could peak at. Jye Eric Walker wrote: Hi Jye, Man I left the ATL in 1996; it was getting to be too much of a city for me. Any how my cousin is a photographer for the AJC (his by-line is Ben Gray), well anyhow after 9/11 and the ten days he spent in Manhattan with the nose bleeds and the crazy chaos, he was on stand-by to go to Pakistan. This was before the war with the Taliban or any retaliation what-so-ever. I asked him if he was going to carry, because I would want to if I were sent there. He said it would conflict with his role as a journalist. He's got s large set if-you-know-what-I-mean... I don't think anyone would have told him he couldn't...but I'm not sure. Anyhow where do you train in the ATL? I'm through there all the time and would like to poke my head in on somebody with a different point of view. Eric _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "pranab banik" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:43:21 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] gun disarm Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net as a hapkido/ tkd student  for a long time i did not even bother thinking about gun disarming tecnique. about a year ago i had the opportunity to train in CDT (compliance, direction, takedown) Level I, II and III. beside basic hand techniques, this system also has club, knife and gun take away techniques which are simple and easy to use with proper training. www.CDT-TRAINING.com  has more info. in my opinion this system has some familiar hapkido essence but it is effective. when your life is on the line do you really care! p. banik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is there a gadget-lover on your gift list? MSN Shopping has lined up some good bets --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ground Fighting Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:49:04 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I was looking through John Perkin's book "Attack Proof" about his thoughts on ground fighting. He was a NYC police officer involved in over a 100 "serious, violent, armed, and unarmed confrontations. Although he was highly skilled in Native American ground fighting techniques (nasty stuff) he went to the ground in less than 10% of the confrontations. " Randall, Thank you for proving one of my major points. Only because Perkin was a highly skilled grappler could he opt to keep fights standing. Ignore grappling and you will have little choice in the matter. In short, those who ignore grappling/ground fighting because they hope not to be on the ground in a fight are their own worst enemies, and not very intelligent either. John   >"Results are the best proof of ability." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Gordon Ray Polk" To: Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:49:30 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Styles? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am new to this forum, but have found it very interesting and informative. For a couple years I studied Hapkido under Grandmaster Hyun, Kwang Seek (http://www.hapkido.ws/) in Chicago. For those of you who like history, GM Hyun studied under Kim, Jung-Yoon who studied under Choi, Yong-Sul. I've only learned this recently, not while studying at the school in Chicago. From what I have read on this forum what I know as Hapkido and what many others know as Hapkido have many differences. I don't know if it is because my linage (http://www.modernhapkido.org/tree_kim__jung-yoon.html ) does not go through Grandmaster Ji, Han-Jae or if it is just another "style" of Hapkido. I remember it being said that our school had a combination of traditional and modern Hapkido. For example, forms.I never practiced or saw forms while at Hyun's Hapkido. We practiced techniques one-on-one from the first day. We tried to practice as we would fight. Training was very much self-defense oriented. Except for the traditional bowing, counting, etc. we only spoke English, not Korean. We referred to Grandmaster Hyun as Grandmaster Hyun. To Master Ahn (Yong-In University) as Master Ahn and Master Jang (Yong-In University) as Master Jang. When I first started studying Hapkido at GM Hyun's school, I believe it was the winter of 1994 or so, many of the classes were taught by senior students. These students, one I remember as Bob, had over twenty years in Hapkido and were mostly 3rd black belts. They were great instructors. It was within a few months that Master Jang arrived from Korea. By that time I think I was already a yellow belt. Maybe the reason that we did not use Korean terms is that most of my instructors were Korean and trying to learn English. GM Hyun had already been in the US for many years and spoke perfect English. As far a testing is concerned, there was no test. Our instructors were constantly watching us to see our techniques and abilities. Every once in a while we would be asked to go see Grand Master Hyun. He would explain that we were being promoted to the next belt. For me, when I started, things took a bit longer. I was very much out of shape and things did not come as easy to me as others. So, my promotions did not come as quickly as others. A few years back, between semesters at college, I studied Hapkido here in Spring, Texas under GM Pham Gia Cau. He was taught by GM Kim, Jin Pal who was taught by Ji, Han-Jae (http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_info.com.html). At GM Pham's school things were very different. Forms were a big part of the training. It reminded me of what I had seen at the many Tae Kwon Do schools throughout the Houston area. All techniques had a "Korean" name. At least I assume it was Korean. GM Pham is Vietnamese and it was often difficult to understand his English or anything else he would say. When it came to promotions we had a test. We first had to go through our forms which were a series of about 20 different punches and kicks. We then would do about three techniques, by ourselves, if I recall correctly. From what I have described as my experience what is considered to be the more typical experience at most Hapkido schools? Forms or no forms? Korean or English? Testing or no testing. (I have also been told that some schools spar, we did not at either school that I saw) I would appreciate anyone's input. Many of you have decades more experience and knowledge of Hapkido than I do. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the different styles of Hapkido. Thanks. Sung Moo! Gordon R. Polk gpolk@houston.rr.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest