Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:01:49 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #542 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Frank Clay (ABurrese@aol.com) 2. (no subject) (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Re: The King is falling (J T) 4. RE: Hyungs (Stovall, Craig) 5. Hyung (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Re: MA Expert kills two (Aaron Lassman) 7. Hyung, poomse, kata (David Weller) 8. Moja Kwan and JKD Theory again (Charles Richards) 9. MA kills two........... (George Peters) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shopping_fraud?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Re: Grand Master In Suk Pak (clinton snider) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:52:08 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Frank Clay Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read the post regarding Frank Clay, and I will be calling him to verify. In addition, many of you know that I left BudoSeek and did not go back because of things going on with one individual. I do want to say this in an open forum, Mr. Clay always treated me with respect, even when he disagreed with my position because he believed the person I had a problem with. I respect Mr. Clay and am sorry that he has been lied to and now finds himself in a difficult position. He was always straight up with me and always respectful. I hope he can put this behind him and continue to be a positive force in the martial art community as we should all strive to be. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:18:28 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael writes: > Hey, pictures don't lie and yours is in the KSW black textbook volume > 1, > page 228 along with the words MASTER CANADA. It's truly saddening that > the politics,policies, and personal opinions of the higher ups in MA's > only seem to flow one way and that's downhill...... Hello Michael: Thanks for your comments. I DO feel sad, but we just go on and try to do our best not to fall into a trap of making it worse by doing the same thing in return. Slinging mud is one technique I try to stay away from:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:45:56 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The King is falling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I should have worded Mst. Clay was burned by the actions of Mst. H through the KHF. The KHF, did not do any wrong doing to Mst. Clay or other participants that I am aware of. I apologize for my bad wording. With respect, Jeremy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:58:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I could write volumes, but I'll be brief (for once). I don't believe there is anything that makes forms practice intrinsically more "spiritual" or "mental" than any other physical activity. I defy anyone to prove this in a fair and objective manner. True athletic performance...let's say playing linebacker in the NFL...is about as close to a total mind/body/spirit immersion that I can think of. It can't be just about "muscle". Muscle never did anything on it's own without a mind and nervous system directing it. It doesn't matter if you're doing Bassai, running a marathon, or climbing a mountain. It's what the individual MAKES of the activity that dictates the qualities of that activity. Contrast this with some 10-year-old green belt just going through the motion of his hyung at the local strip-mall dojang. Is he exploring the mysteries of the spiritual universe with his half-assed movements? No, absolutely not. There's nothing intrinsically spiritual or mental about the activity...it's YOU that makes it what it is. Therefore, my "athletic" activity of sparring could be just as much a total mind/body/spirit experience (in the zone...if you will) as any hyung or kata. It's not the activity...it's the focus and attention that is brought TO the activity FROM you. As far as the athlete/artist dichotomy...well, I could go on for hours. Suffice it to say that the word "artist" implies creativity and/or originality. I know a lot of these "artists" whose entire "artistic" experience in life is to replicate the training experience of the generation before them. Everything done to exact specifications down to the turn of a wrist, or the number of degrees in the angle between the ankle and the top of the foot. This is the true "classical mess" that Lee was referring to...when tradition becomes a trap, rather than a foundation upon which to build OUR OWN UNIQUE EXPERIENCE. When we seek validation from authority, as opposed to liberating ourselves through the creative process...THAT is the classical mess. And this mess can apply to ANYTHING...it could be TKD, BJJ, Kali, Muay Thai, Krav Maga...whatever. You can use them all as vehicles for liberation (beating back the ego), or be trapped in the morass of technical replication (validation). Heck, even Lee's own Jun Fan Kickboxing lives on as a "classical mess" in most quarters. Legions of students desperately trying to imitate a man that died in 1973 from the way he trained, to the way he fought. They seek Bruce Lee's truth (something they can never experience or own), rather than seeing their own truth that is already there. Then again...Lee ripped off all of his best ideas from Krishnamurti;) Craig "Despite it all, I still want that yellow track suit from Game of Death" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:59:56 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Scott writes: > But I have been recently introduced to the idea that forms practice > can be a kind of "moving meditation." That is, forms practice may be > more related to the mental and spiritual aspects of martial arts than > the "martial" side. If one forgets these aspects one is simply an > athlete and not an artist. But in all likelihood I have it wrong. I > am a newcommer to martial arts. Hello Scott: Hyung can be whatever you want them to be. For some hyung provide countless hours of discussion and/or trying to find obscure reasons for the existence of hyungs, for others they simply provide ways to: disguise repetition, increase agility, improve aerobic capacity, balance, coordination, and a host of other valuable ways to train the body and mind. My advise to you is not to let the "discussions" on what a hyung should be prevent you from enjoying them for simply what they are... a tool by which you can enrich your skills and/or your life:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Aaron Lassman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:13:52 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: MA Expert kills two Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net all I have to say is score two and a half for the good guys. I don't know much about the laws in Italy, but, in Washington State, as long as this guy didn't go chasing them down (not likely since it sounds as if all their stab wounds are anterior), he was completely justified. In a situation where you are out numbered 4 to 1 and everyone has a weapon except you, excessive force is isn't something one needs to consider. Besides, he obviously allowed one to get away completely unharmed. In good health, Aaron Lassman, CMT The Worlds Greatest Massage Therapist "I am not the same having seen the moon shine on the other side of the world" -Mary Anne M.B.L. Radmacher (www.wordshop.com) _________________________________________________________________ online games and music with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:09:32 -0600 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyung, poomse, kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Feldstein, New comer or not, I think you may have it exactly right. Forms practice may not make you the greatest fighter on earth, but I kinda think it makes you a better person. I have been told from the beginning of my training in TKD that poomse are moving meditations. As well as tools to learn techniques and motion. I'm still waiting to learn the "secret dim mak" applications of the poomse however ... have a groovy day, dave weller On Tuesday, December 2, 2003, at 12:42 PM, scott d. feldstein wrote: > From: "Scott D. Feldstein" > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Hyungs again > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Forms practice is "classical mess"? I can see where someone might say > it didn't have enough to do with actual, real-world self-defense > scenarios. I don't know enough about Bruce Lee or his JKD to comment > on what he did or didn't mean. But I have been recently introduced to > the idea that forms practice can be a kind of "moving meditation." > That is, forms practice may be more related to the mental and > spiritual aspects of martial arts than the "martial" side. If one > forgets these aspects one is simply an athlete and not an artist. > > But in all likelihood I have it wrong. I am a newcommer to martial > arts. > -- > scott d. feldstein --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:09:26 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Moja Kwan and JKD Theory again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Seriously, not to find fault here...but, the whole JKD approach to TSD Has always confused me. Could you expand on this a bit? …… I think you would agree that Lee would be the first in line to take you to task over your practice of hyungs. After all, forms practice was the centerpiece of what he considered the "classical mess" of Asian fighting arts. <> Lee would take me to task, but Dr. Jerry Beasley would not. Moja Kwan applies theoretical JKD to its approach to KMA. So in a short explanation, we are a traditional TSD based KMA. We use a plain traditional KMA dobohk, without patches, practice the Sho Rin Ryu Hyung of TSD and use Korean terms in class like sabomnim, dobohk, and hyungs. A little more on why we kept those two things later. <> Then again, I'd be the first to take Lee to task on a couple of fronts. I don't see how he understood fighting in its "isness", and somehow kept all that Wing Chun compound trapping and energy drills … <> Actually on this point Sigong Lee practiced theoretical JKD by applying the principle of Instructor Preference, as an instructor his preference was for Wing Chun Gung Fu as his base art. Even though he tried to hide it in the “creation” of JKD. It was his history and preponderance of tools in the bag when he started. The same applies for Moja Kwan and Tang Soo Do…we extend our instructor preference to KMA because that’s what I have the most experience in. FWIW, I think he would be the first to admit that learning Jun Faun Gung Fu requires considerable training in two man forms even if absent solo forms (see my previous posts to DD about solo vs. two man forms). <> Oh well, enough about Lee's JKD...I guess I'm interested in Understanding YOUR JKD...what is YOUR truth. How does the JKD concept fit into the overall framework of Mojakwan? How did hyungs make it through the JKD KISS test, and remain in your curriculum? Just curious. <> To oversimplify, we adsorb what is useful and our instructor preference leans towards KMA first. To give some for examples of the KISS test, we start sparring early (7th gup, with drills from day one). We rarely “snatch at air”, but tend to lean towards using a partner or a paddle for a target. Kicking is almost never done in the air. Our one-steps include transitions to all ranges of fighting and stop hits. We try to apply the five ways (angles) of attack concepts into our sparring (Actually Master Mac and GM West let me do a mini-session on this at Jackson two or three seminars ago). Our students are taught to use footwork and parries and almost never hard style “blocking.” Actually I don’t use the word block I use defense. Hyungs stay in our framework for many reasons. 1. They (being the Sho Rin Ryu modified ones) are our link to our roots and identity (TSD) 2. They are, as someone posted recently, a moving meditation and for that reason alone are of value for curricula. 3. They require a (somewhat) progressive level of difficulty in techniques, balance, and timing 4. As Funakoshi describes they can be practiced anywhere and without a partner and as Shin Kwan Jang Nim explained to me, if you practiced Hyung because you didn’t have a partner you could maintain and/or improve your overall martial arts skill, but your timing for things like sparring might suffer, but could be brought back up to par with a little time sparring with a partner. Certainly better than not practicing. There are other parts to today’s posts that I want to answer, but we are now on my son’s time so I gotta go. Yours in Jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:08:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MA kills two........... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why does the legal system fail to recognize that the criminal element needs to become aware that they WILL suffer some sort of consequenses for their actions. Someone defending their life or property should never be judged like this poor SOB. People always want to cry when they bite off more than they can chew, if you try to injure or kill and this happens to you, accept it, if you try to rob and encounter extreme force, accept it. When did people start worrying about the criminal and flushing the rights of decent folks down the toilet? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ >From the hottest toys to tips on keeping fit this winter, you’ll find a range of helpful holiday info here. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:00:20 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shopping_fraud?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mark: ".....If BBB yields nothing, next step is small claims court......" Thanks, Mark. In contrast let me tell you about Melinda. I should share upfront that I have never met this individual in-person. In fact I don't think I have actually purchased anything from her. We have exchanged e- mails and she has done some research for me and that is about all. All? Think about that for a minute. She doesn't know me and I haven't bought anything from her but she has never skimped on the customer service. Not once. I mention this because I think that some of the best people I can recommend all have made an impression with me regarding their customer service and in return, if I need to get something you can best believe I will be giving her a call and I will be recommending her as a resource to people who are looking. I know. Times are hard and we all want to get the best bang for our buck. For me, though, I don't mind paying even a bit more if I know that when I call with a question I won't get a recording. These words of wisdom are brought to you by Bruce the Monk, who reminds you that even today your mothers' advice is more relevant than ever. "When you go out to play in the wet, always wear your rubbers." ;-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "clinton snider" To: Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:06:48 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Grand Master In Suk Pak Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was woundering if anyone had a historical or information on Grandmaster In Suk Pak. I Know that it taught many students in Sault Ste Marie, On Canada. I was woundering how that came to be. If you have any information please e-mail me Clinton Snider --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest