Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:30:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #544 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Bruce and Pinans (Charles Richards) 2. Romantic Hyungs ? (Ken McDonough) 3. Moja Kwan Kicking (Charles Richards) 4. Respect (Rudy Timmerman) 5. GM Pak (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Re: Property and deadly force (Ray Terry) 7. JAMA article (Ray Terry) 8. Re: shopping fraud (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Orphans?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. RE: All those Hyungs (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 11. Re: Mr. Keatley (Dewitt, Garrett) 12. Property and deadly force (Robert Martin) 13. Re: defending property (Michael Whalen) 14. Video on website (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 15. MA kills two........... (Sean O'Brien) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce and Pinans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, > This is a real coincidence that you bring this issue back up right now as I am about 8 days into a 10 day experiment regarding the hyung that I do. ...Likewise I have mentioned in the past that GM Myung had considerable training in TKD and his hyung reflect a significant influence from those early TKD forms --- probably from Shotokan. That said I decided to take time out for a 10 day period to see if solely practicing the Pinan (Pyong Ahn) hyung would produce any interesting effects. I must report that from the second day of practice I was already noticing significant response in my body. 1.) One significant difference was a new-found soreness on the margins of the trapezius as well as the sterno-mastoid in the neck. <> I believe it is in Nakayama's book where he describes the ability to understand what muscles are tense during a technique, and which are relaxed. I'm sure you have found that extra tension slows the technique and makes it less fluid. From my memory of the pictures, these muscles are involved in Karate style striking. I'm assuming they are not or to a lesser extent in YMK HKD... 2.) I also found that proper performance of the Pinan Kata (especially the first three) compelled me to work from a lower stance providing for a challenging workout over a wider range of motion. <> One of the benefits to Pinan/Shotokan practice has been its "more atheletic" focus. Many joint lock/pressure point styles and modern TKD has its reasons for the higher walking stance, but I agree the Pinans really help you develop strength and flexibility in the lower trunk and legs. 3.) Finally, the Pinan kata seemed to be better integrated. By this I mean that the YMK Hyung seemed to be much easier to identify as a string of discrete techniques, while the Pinan kata flowed more smoothly, transitioning from one method to another. I also think that there was better balance between the use of right and left sides of the body, especially using the hands and arms. <> The Pinan indeed teach balance, and most hyung could be "cut in half" as they indicate the technique on both sides. And yes they are so interelated, about once a season, I will start one pinan and put the ending of another on it if my mind wanders for just a second :-) I don't think I will be abandoning the use of the YMK hyung, but I am considering making time to revisit the Okinawa-te material of my past for whatever other benefits I might uncover. <> Good journey! Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:39:13 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Romantic Hyungs ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Speaking of Hyungs, a girl I once dated wanted to know if I knew "Well Hyung ?" I told her I was. We had a great relationship after that. So, the poster is correct, if you know Hyungs well, or if you are Well Hyung, you will be treated better. McD --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:07:18 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Moja Kwan Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Craig, Thank you for your post, and as Bruce said, your timing is interesting. I have already let go of my past and accepted what Coach Han Lee does with the variations of round kick. So as posted previously, nothing I do looks like the old Funakoski/Nakayama/Chun books for kicking. Keeping in line with the way Coach Han Lee teaches rear leg round kick, and what I was taught as "advanced" TSD kicking, everything rear leg starts from the same "chamber" and so the first "kick" White Belts learn is knee strike, then front kick. All kicks are done with the hands up in the window of engagement and generally from a small phasic bent knee stance (JKD fighting stance), or the TKD style fighting stance (which I'm starting to like even more for competative sparring). In general we kick a target of some sort for two reasons, to help with focus and distancing, and to protect the joints in lieu of "snatching at air." Except for my more flexible youth that compete, the solar plexus or mid chest is my highest target area for first kicks. After a set-up or choping you down to a lower level, we might consider a head kick. Targets below the belt line are encouraged as long as the student can tell me the specific target and has good mechanics to the kick (height is not important). Kicks are taught in a progressive maner from kicks with zero to ninety degree pivot of the standing foot to kicks that require a ninety to 180 degree pivot of the standing foot in coordination with the striking with the foot. Moves on to spin kicks around 4th gup, then jump kicks around 2nd gup and jump-spin kicks for yudanja. What's interesting on the timing of your post is I am evaluating the fact that I appear to be attatched to chambering kicks and foot position. Maybe I'm replicating my instructors preferences. I've seen a lot of good leg level kickboxing kicks that have a good agressive waist torque for power generation, but no real "chamber"...seems to work for them, but when I spar, I still chamber. I used to think what the open tournament point fighters did with what I'll call a stomp kick was just a lazy unbladed side kick, but know my more open mind sees striking with the heel supported by the two large bones in the body as making more sense than putting the stress on the ankle for impacting something with a bladed foot. I am researching that kick as I write this post to find my own truth :-) BTW can you still get those yellow game of death running suits in relaxed fit husky sizes :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:29:24 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Respect Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain writes: > I do want to say this in an open forum, Mr. Clay always treated me > with respect, even when he disagreed with my position because he > believed the person I had a problem with. Hello Alain: Funny you should mention that. I just sent an email to Mr. Clay telling him the same thing. While we have certainly had our differences, anytime we did communicate it was always in a respectful manner both ways. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:39:44 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Pak Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Clinton writes: > I was woundering if anyone had a historical or information on > Grandmaster In > Suk Pak. I Know that it taught many students in Sault Ste Marie, On > Canada. I > was woundering how that came to be. Hello Clinton: GM Pak taught not only in Sault Ste Marie. In Canada, he had many followers in Elliott Lake as well as Toronto and Edmonton. The reasons for that "coming to be" is simple, he lived in those areas and operated schools there. Finding correct historical data on the GM is not an easy thing, and I wish you luck. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Property and deadly force To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:33:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Alain may be able to shed more light on this, but it was my > understanding from a couple of lawyer friends that you can not defend > property with deadly force. I believe it varys from state to state. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:51:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] JAMA article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a heads-up regarding an article in the current issue of JAMA (Journal of Asian Martial Arts)... Ancient Military Manuals and their Relation to Modern Korean Martial Arts, by Manuel E. Adrogue. I think I can hear Bruce running to the nearest newstand right now... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:11:36 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: shopping fraud Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Thanks, Mark. In contrast let me tell you about Melinda. I should share upfront that I have never met this individual in-person. In fact I don't think I have actually purchased anything from her. We have exchanged e- mails and she has done some research for me and that is about all. " heehee....aw now, bruce, i'm blushing. i just love hearin' stuff like that. btw, those gray uniforms of doju ji about which you inquired are on that bogus (that's BOE-GUS, not BOH-GOO's -for all you kendo fellers out there) sin moo website ali posted. although theyre plastered with the sin moo logo front and back, you might be able to get a plain one if you care to try. as a side note, i have no affiliation with them whatsoever. fyi, folks. even if you dont see what you want on the website, just ask. we can usually get what you need (unless, of course, youre bruce ;)) and cut you the double D discount. take care, mel :) (who really didnt pay bruce for the testimonial) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:09:03 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Orphans?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry, Ray: ".....> a.) That the KHF be pro-active in supporting the prosecution of anyone who > has compromised the image and integrity of the organization. The message > must be clear that betraying the trust the organization provides to its > designated representatives carries a significant consequence. ... [much snipped] Where you been, Bruce? Alain has made it clear that he is no longer involved with this KHF......" Your right. That didn't come out exactly right. My appeal to the community through my e-mail to Alain was not an appeal to Alain as a member of the particular KHF involved in this fiasco. Rather, my appeal was to Alain as a respected figure in the KMA who has already set a standard for quality and integrity with his efforts. My understanding is that parties responsible for this mess continue to be accepted as responsible individuals worthy of regard and even publication priveleges by such resources as the TAEKWONDO TIMES and John Gradens' MA industry magazine. I have no illusions about my standing in the KMA community when comparing myself alongside of folks such as Rudy, JR, Alain, Hal and others. However, if Bong Soo Han can find time to comment on things as I understand that he did, I think we all can find a bit of room in our schedule to do our part, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] All those Hyungs Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:36:05 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had the same considerations, when I looked at including the Kicho Hyung in my curriculum, but even with 12+ students, I found they give such a great foundation for the later forms (I use the Chang-Hon forms with Bassai/Balsek and Chul-Gi/Tekki thrown in for historical and fun reasons). Learning the three Kicho's has ready set a firm foundation and allows them to grasp beginning forms like Chon-Ji and Dan-Gun with great speed and success. Of course, personally I highly value Hyung training. Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Richards [mailto:mojakwan@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:45 AM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] All those Hyungs > > Dear Charlie, > > I think the Kuk Mu forms is a big part of your Chung Do Kwan history. > Of course if your truth does not have to replicate your instructor's > CDK... > FWIW, I struggled with punting the KiCho Hyungs. They do not have the > history of the Pyung Ahns, or of the yudanja hyungs, but as my wife > reminded me, they are the building blocks for true white blets and > kids. Now, If I ran a school like say Master J. Thomas for ages 12+, I > might consider eliminating the Kicho Hyungs, and teaching PA#1 to 7th > Gups...hmmmm...Or even going back to just a few belts (White, Yellow, > Blue, Red and Black)...hmm.... > > Interessting to see Hangetsu as a cho dan requirement as it is with the > some Karate styles. It is usually 4th or 5th dan for TSD (shrug). > Curious as to why you picked the Pal-gwe and not the TaeKyuks. I could > see the TaeKyuks for USTU/AAU events, but the Pal-gwes IMHO don't > really add anything new to the Pyung Ahns. > > Your thoughts? > > FWIW 14 open hand forms and a weapons forms seams a bit heavy on the > cirricula side to me, but with 4 in lieu of 3 years probably works out > about right. > > Yours in Jung Do, > > Charles Richards > www.mojakwan.com > > <> > I was reading over your last post, and liked the ideas. I agree you > need around ten forms to first degree. We have the 6 kuk mu ( i call > them the baby forms), then 5 pyong an, then Chul Gi 1, Pal Sek, > Hangetsu, and first staff form. We take about 4 years to black. Some > of my tournament competitors will pick up Pal ge 2 and 7. That is a > bunch, and the easy thing to do would be to drop those silly kuk mu > forms. But then again people must consider what is happening in those > first forms, good ol building blocks. If I was to only ever teach > adults EVER again, I might would be interested in blending or breaking > up our Kuk Mu forms, but even then those adults would miss out on that > training opportunity at the lower level. You have to have um. Bottom > line. Plus, we talk alot about application in class, and I would hate > dealing with that with white orange and yellow belts ("okay new > student, this is where the bad guys arm bends the unnatural > way....don't tell your mom"....Just kidding guys, I don't move em that > fast). After those six kuk mu forms, I think students are finally > ready to get going good. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:36:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr. Keatley Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Keatley wrote: Hi Master Dewitt, What are these Chung Bong forms that you speak of? Are these empty handed or with a staff? I am curious about this and wonder why you have been holding out on me. Ah, Mr. Keatley.... What a wonderful post... Sir. Chung Bong Hyungs were taught to the TSD/TKD students a trained with during the early 1980's. During this time, there were several "fun" changes going on at the K.T.A. and the W.T.F./Kukkiwon. Song Moo Kwan Grandmaster Ro Byung Jick (S. Korea)and his son Ro Sang Hee(Minneapolis)teach these. I was not told just why GM IL K. Kim,(Chung Do Kwan) my former Grandmaster, taught these to us, other than he is a very good friend of the Ro's and has trained with them for many years... They do have a more open hand, flowing movement and are often done in deep stances... Hmmmmm, seems that my thighs were a bit sore from this exact thing (deep stances) from a few weeks ago... I may have an old video of these Hyungs stuck away someplace.... If I find this, I shall send it your way... Re: Kong Shin Bup Geup rank Now that you are one of us, the "real" pain can commence! :) Lorne Keatley I knew this was the agenda all along... I have no doubts that you, and/or Mr. Manfred Fisher are planning to make the geup training/tests up to Blue Belt and beyond a non-ending nightmare for me... You did notice I wrote "now a geup ranked legitimate student" right?? Did I mention that "I am NOW a geup ranked student of Kong Shin Bup?" Interesting Mr. Keatley that you should send this post now..... On the way back to MN, PSN Keppers would often just glare at me and finally she said, "there has to be something wrong with you that you continue to go the Soo for this training!" As you stated Sir, the fun is just beginning.... Regards Master DeWitt --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:44:52 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Property and deadly force Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A great deal depends on local laws. In Colorado we have the famous "make my day" law that allows for use of deadly force in defending your home. Recently, neighbors were in a dispute involving a barking dog. The complaining neighbor tried to gain fociable entry into the neighbors house. The dog owner shot him dead. No charges were filled. Robert Martin Message: 11 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:31:16 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Property and deadly force Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain may be able to shed more light on this, but it was my understanding from a couple of lawyer friends that you can not defend property with deadly force. We have a case in the DC area where a man is being charged with manslaughter and assault for shooting a couple of young men that were trying to steal his truck, killing one of them. He was inside heard the car alarm and came out shooting. It had happened to him before. I don't necessarily agree with it but it is the law. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:54:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: defending property Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net < you can not defend property with deadly force> You can in texas. Read about it in the papers all the time. However, most incidents, where the shooter has been absolved of any wrongdoing, have occurred after dark. Loophole maybe..... michael whalen Kswnut --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:23:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Video on website Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is just to funny not share.... http://www.ilram.com/M_taichimasters_temp.html (watch both fights)... Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 09:10:07 +1000 From: "Sean O'Brien" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] MA kills two........... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So where is the line in the sand, when is not ok for someone to be killed becuased they wronged you ? You accidentally ran over the pet or livestock (common tribal disputes involving blood shed and killing in PNG are over pigs)? Becuase some fundementalist religous person finds your acceptance of alcohol a direct threat to their way of life ? And even in that life threatening situation, surely he could have controlled the situation a little more then killing everyone. Perhaps thats why we have a legal system and the police ? All I saw was they said they were investigating... point being did he kill them after they had already left the building and were on the run and the direct threat was gone, or did they die outside of the building due to injuries sustained from inside. Some of you will still argue that its fine that he chased them down and finished the job off, but when is the cut off time ? 5mins, 5 hours, a day, a week ? becuase if its beyond that cut off time surely the families of the killed have a right of response to come and hunt him down or something silly ? eye for an eye ... And if they didn't investigate don't you think criminals would abuse the system ? ie. pay someone they want to kill to hold up a place they will be at so they can kill them... remember you are getting offended at the idea that they are investigating the killing. Or hell why bother with the charade, just invite them around and kill them then make up some story about them coming round to get you or something... remember no investigation (thats what your upset about). Only message I take away from that is its not a good idea to kill people unless you absolutely have no other choice. Seems like a fairly good morale. From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:08:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MA kills two........... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why does the legal system fail to recognize that the criminal element needs to become aware that they WILL suffer some sort of consequenses for their actions. Someone defending their life or property should never be judged like this poor SOB. People always want to cry when they bite off more than they can chew, if you try to injure or kill and this happens to you, accept it, if you try to rob and encounter extreme force, accept it. When did people start worrying about the criminal and flushing the rights of decent folks down the toilet? Respectfully, George --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest