Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:52:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #546 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Deadly force in MS (J.R. West) 2. my own truth in practice (L. Veuleman) 3. Brian Beach on defending property........................... (George Peters) 4. Bassahai vs. Bassahee so/ Bassahee Tae (Kimberly Arvanitis) 5. RE: Chung Bong Hyung (Piotr Bernat) 6. RE: Hyungs (Farral, Kim) 7. Savate Videos? (Lasich, Mark D.) 8. Re: MA expert kills two (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 9. Re: shopping fraud (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 10. triuph of evil in KMA (William.Baldwin@ureach.com) 11. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Home_Invasion?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 12. JKD again (Charles Richards) 13. The line in the sand... (Eric Walker) 14. Re: Mr. Keatley (me apparently) (lkeatley@sympatico.ca) 15. More Hyung (Charles Richards) 16. Chang Moo Kwan forms (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:23:06 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Deadly force in MS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mississippi is the only state in the union, as far as I know, that allows one to legally carry a silenced fully automatic weapon in their personal vehicle....Honest. I have also heard from my attorney, an ex federal judge, that the "he needed killin' " defense actually has a precedent in this state, and he has heard it invoked at a trial (unsuccessfully) while he was on the bench. As far as use of deadly force is concerned, we are allowed to protect our house and property, which includes our vehicles, against almost any form of "attack". Considering what most of us rednecks carry in our cars, or vans, all we're doing is thinning out the gene pool from the narrow end.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:54:56 -0800 (PST) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] my own truth in practice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles, TSD Keeps hangetsu for that late in training? Wow. I am glad I got it early, since it took me until recently to figure out where/how the power structure is setup in such a small awkward stance. Teaching it to Nathan helped alot, watching how his smaller body frame worked taught me how to make my movements count for more in that form. Its been funny with the Pyong Ans and all the others, teaching Nathan who has a smaller frame, to be big in the forms with the wide stances and up and down movements, then moving to such a tighter stanced form, which fits him very well, and me, mr 6 foot of bones to who it does not look right on at all. I'm just a measly second degree, I don't think I can have my own truth...or can I?,....just joking. Besides, it took so long to get off the 'black sheep' list, would be crazy to change things and go my own way. Yeah, it is alot of forms. Luckily the pyong ans are pretty short, and I am really good (hear my own horn tooting) at teaching the movements quickly, either that or I am just blessed with some smarter students at the current time (which is probably the actual case). On an unrelated related note, I just picked up TANG SOO DO by GM Kang Uk Lee. It is pretty good as a intro book, and I could see its shelf life importance with so many forms in it. It had three Chil Sung forms in it about the middle of the book. So I headed over to Master Macs part of the internet world, and noticed he had added some video of them to the lineup. Where do they fit into the tsd curriculum? The first one seemed more advanced than the second one if they are being taught to low belts, but that was just glancing at them once, I reserve the right to be wrong :). ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:24:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Brian Beach on defending property........................... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: There are two types of "right and wrong". There is the "ethical" or adherence to the written law, and there is the "moral" "it just isn't right law or code of conduct". If you read the entire thread, you must have read where I bemoaned the downturn of a nation where the rights of criminals are protected before the rights of the "just". In analogy, in the state I live in, a man of legal age can have consenual sex with a girl of 14. THIS ISN'T RIGHT you might proclaim, but I can assure you , it's ethical. As citizens we have to try and take our country back to what is morally right, not what some simpering legal-eagle attempts to wring out of a criminally minded client in a gross perversion of justice. Could you imagine a place where people live by what is right(like the KMA codes or tenets)? By the way, there IS something you can do. I strongly suggest that everyone look up "jury nullification" This is a means where miscarriages of justice don't occur because the jury can take independant action. It is the nightmare of the legal system and it's proponents and can be invoked in any of the 50 states. There is a very nice book available on the Backwoods Home Magazine web-site that deals with and explains this subject. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Cell phone ‘switch’ rules are taking effect — find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:40:40 -0800 (PST) From: Kimberly Arvanitis To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bassahai vs. Bassahee so/ Bassahee Tae Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I currently study the art of Han Guk Mu Sool, and have a question fro all you who study Tang soo do... Han Guk Mu Sool is a great combination of Tang Soo Do, and other Korean Martial Arts. While chatting with my Instructor, he told me that all our forms durrive from Tang Soo Do until we reach red belt. Well, I did a little research, and I found that our Basahee forms (So= lesser, Tae= greater) are a rewritten version of the Bassahai form. I was wondering if anyone could send me the form in either a written version, or maybe a website that I could see the layout of Bassahai. I am interested in seeing how much our form differs..also I was wondering what level Bassahai of taught at. If anyone could send me some info that would be great!! Thanxs!!!! -Kim cadetrv@yahoo.com aka.Kim Arvanitis --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Piotr Bernat" To: Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:50:54 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Chung Bong Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I may have an old video of these Hyungs stuck away > someplace.... If I find this, I shall > send it your way... I would gladly exchange it for some other MA-related material as well... Piotr Bernat www.taekwondo.prv.pl --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Farral, Kim" To: Dojang Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:48:58 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung... Comparing NFL Linebacker and other such physical sports to the practice of forms is IMO completely unrelated...granted... "There is the mind of matter" aspect to all physical activity...whereas one literally puts the exhaustion and the pain out of mind to complete the task whether it be swimming, running, football, baseball, or even bowling,...it's a matter of physical endurance...the same as sparring in martial arts...it's endurance and stamina...not art...not a matter of focusing all energy to be in tune with every single motion and movement through every muscle in your body...not a matter of releasing your mind and letting it work in tune with your as opposed to focusing your mind to get your body to do what you want...these are two totally different aspects...you have physical sports and physical art...two completely separate aspects of physical activity...IMVHO... Besides...the Cortisone, Morphine, Stimulants, Steroids, and other such "AIDS"...legal and otherwise...sure help those pro athletes concentrate and focus!!! (would that still be called mind over matter?) Pil Seung!!! The One and Only "TINK" ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:54:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Savate Videos? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Due to the home-cleaning efforts of a friend, I just obtained the 10 tape set of Panther Home Savate Videos with "French Master" Professor Salem Assli! While the video boxes look quite interesting, I was curious if anyone else on the list has viewed them, has any comments/opinions, etc. The videos range from stretching to offensive kicking to defensive kicking through self defense and history! I guess this is primarily "kick boxing". Any thoughts??? Thanks. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 8 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:03:31 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: MA expert kills two Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmm, I wonder what happens if one of the guys running away turns and says "just wait 'till I get back to my gang!  You, your family and your friends are all DEAD!"  Are you then justified in giving chase and making sure this guy doesn't make it back to his gang? hi jesse, from what i understand, being in "imminent danger" comes in to play. at least in the state of MO. if i felt i was in imminent danger and threat of loss of life, i could act with deadly force. if i was in danger of some guy running away and coming back later with his gang, my responsibility would lie more with getting the hell out of there and calling the cops. take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:13:58 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: shopping fraud Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have ordered things for myself and my students from her, and recommend her 100% heehee...i can feel the love. thanks for all the kind words, everyone. take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:25:57 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: William.Baldwin@ureach.com, MD-S Subject: [The_Dojang] triuph of evil in KMA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net RE: [Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 07:56:50 -0600 (CST) [From: [To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net [Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Orphans_?= [Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net [ At the risk of antagonizing anyone on this Net [who may be reading this, I don't think that I am telling tales out of [school that the reason that many frauds and miscarriages can occur is that [the majority of folks do not want to be involved. More than any other time [I believe NOW is the time to become involved and demonstrate why it is [that anyone would want to be part of an organization. I seem to remember a quote from somewhere else on this: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:18:32 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Home_Invasion?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jim: ".....Regarding the defense of personal property, I wanted to note one important exception. My understanding is that in most or all states you are justified in using lethal force if your home is invaded, even if it turns out the guy just wanted your television....." If I remember correctly this view was the source of a rather tongue-in- cheek comment that were a person to attempt to break into your house it paid to wait until they were inside to dispatch them or, failing that, to cancel their check where they were and drag the body in through the window. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 06:32:55 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] JKD again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, Dr. Beasley is affiliated with Joe Lewis (a student of Lee's) and Bill Walace in AKIA. He has a book out that discusses theoretical JKD. Short version, Jun Fan Gung Fu would be folks who try to do Wing Chun Gung Fu like Bruce Lee did. Theoretical JKD would be applying the principles of JKD to your truth and tool box :-) Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:28:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] The line in the sand... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a few thoughts regarding the recent discussion involving the martial artist that killed three and wounded one in Italy recently. These two posts got me to thinking this morning while taking care of the essential Esses... ----Message: 7 -Subject: [The_Dojang] MA kills two........... -Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:17:06 +1100 -From: "Bernard Maginnity" -To: -Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net - -I have to agree with Sean somewhat on this one. - -To me this topic is the same as the discussion on Gun ownership recently. -In most Australian States if someone is injured on your property, you are --at fault, defence or not. - -Tonight there is the lighting of the big Christmas tree in the middle of ---Sydney. The Mayor has decided that no Christmas carols will be sung just --in case any non-Christians are offended by them. Yet, our Asian citizens --are allowed to celebrate Chinese New Year publicly and our Arabic citizens -have just recently completed Ramadan which included a march through one ----burb which closed the streets for the entire day. -When is it right? Or am I just being sensitive? - -Kind regards - -Bernie - - -----Original Message----- -From: Sean O'Brien [mailto:obz@nudgee.com] -Subject: [The_Dojang] MA kills two........... - -So where is the line in the sand, when is not ok for someone to be killed --becuased they wronged you ? Certainly, homicide in defense of one's self or of an innocent is justifiable in a legal and moral sense. However I would pose this question, when else is it MORALLY justifiable? The anarchist in me has never obeyed stupid laws, and the legal part of this question really doesn't concern me. But I ask you all, Masters, dans and gups, fellow seekers along the way, how would you feel if you shot someone that was trying to steal something from your yard? Is a TV or a car or bicycle really worth a persons life, no matter how low or degenerate that person may be at the moment? If you do, then you have chosen to deny that person a chance to lift himself up, or seek enlightenment, to better himself. The "line in the sand" should be drawn in your mind. There should be a clear line that I won't cross, to never strike out in anger, but to let myself become the weapon that is used only in defense of me or an innocent person. I once posted a message on this DD in defense of Mr. McD's attack on an unsavory person that was troubling him in a bar, he didn't kill the man, and he simply gave him a beating. That person has recovered by now, and will think twice before again attempting to use his size and demeanor to intimidate someone. I still fully support this type of action, it has its place. I also take full advantage of my Second Amendment rights, I own a few firearms, and am knowledgeable in their use. However I cannot think of a situation in which I could end someone's life for thievery or some other petty action. It's not worth the "karmic burden" or the guilt I would live with forever after. Dead is dead, he won't recover. Are we seeking to learn simply how to kill people in our training? I think not. I think that the techniques are only the first part, that which lies beyond, in the unseen part of our arts are the more important parts. Killing someone because they "wronged" you may be justified, but for me the only justification is when the "wrong" is an attempt to kill, rape or maim you. I'm interested in the Buddhist's point of view on this; I know there is one or two of you out there. And to Mr. Bernie, it's sad, but we are seeing this trend in America too. I think that some people of European extraction are a little ashamed of their heritage, and so tend to stifle it at times. Freedom is never easy, but we are slowly giving ours up by degrees. I guess when we no longer see value in ourselves and our culture then it will slowly go away. Too bad, but I suppose it is human nature. Eric --__--__-- Message: 14 From: To: Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:28:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr. Keatley (me apparently) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Dewitt wrote: > > Ah, Mr. Keatley.... What a wonderful post... Sir. > Chung Bong Hyungs were taught to the TSD/TKD students a trained with during > the early 1980's. > During this time, there were several "fun" changes going on at the K.T.A. > and the W.T.F./Kukkiwon. Song Moo Kwan Grandmaster Ro Byung Jick (S. > Korea)and his son Ro Sang Hee(Minneapolis)teach these. I was not told just > why GM IL K. Kim,(Chung Do Kwan) my former Grandmaster, taught these to us, > other than he is a very good friend of the Ro's and has trained with them > for many years... > They do have a more open hand, flowing movement and are often done in deep > stances... Hmmmmm, > seems that my thighs were a bit sore from this exact thing (deep stances) > from a few weeks > ago... I may have an old video of these Hyungs stuck away someplace.... If I > find this, I shall > send it your way... You are too kind with your praise. I have always wondered if the seperate Kwans had different forms other than the authorized WTF and ITF forms. Apparently some existed after all. Deep stances in KMA... what a novel idea. :) I would be indebted to you for a copy of that tape. > I knew this was the agenda all along... I have no doubts that you, and/or > Mr. Manfred Fisher > are planning to make the geup training/tests up to Blue Belt and beyond a > non-ending nightmare for me... You did notice I wrote "now a geup ranked > legitimate student" right?? > Did I mention that "I am NOW a geup ranked student of Kong Shin Bup?" > Interesting Mr. Keatley that you should send this post now..... On the way > back to MN, > PSN Keppers would often just glare at me and finally she said, "there has to > be something wrong > with you that you continue to go the Soo for this training!" As you stated > Sir, the fun > is just beginning.... > > Regards > Master DeWitt > Yes, I caught that distinction and hopefully it wasn't lost on others. As to making your nightmare, i will do what I can. :) I know that look all too well. I see it everytime I lead one of my more "creative" workouts. Apparently this condition is contagious and there is no known cure. Indeed it is just the beginning with no end in sight. Lorne Keatley --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:09:49 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] More Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, Thanks for being the filter. If its worth the money, I'll be awaiting an ISBN number or ordering details to add to my ever growing wish list. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www,mojakwan.com <> For people who are investigating the original kata which contributed to the early TKD/TSD hyung I can report that I have found a book which purports to present Naifanchi, Passai, Kushanku, Seisan and Sanchin as originally practiced before their incarnation through the Shotokan tradition. No mention was made of the Pinan kata. Before I get peoples' hopes up about a decent pre-Funakoshi resource let me take a look at it and I will pass along all the particulars. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:41:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Chang Moo Kwan forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I seem to recall that one of the kwans (Chang Moo Kwan?) had some two person forms/hyung/poomse that they practiced. (Did I get the kwan right?) Do any of the CMK folks out there still practice/teach these forms? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest