Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:04:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #548 - 18 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Boxing Defenses (George Popofski) 2. RE: Football not like MA (Farral, Kim) 3. kapkido kicks (Stuart Rosenberg) 4. Women and Deadly Force (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 5. Send your wife (Charles Richards) 6. 2 man forms (Charles Richards) 7. Re: Kong Shin Bup pain (lkeatley@sympatico.ca) 8. More on Kicking (Charles Richards) 9. RE: Jailhouse Rock or 52blocks (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 10. Re:Charles' Kicking Stuff (Dan Monjar) 11. Re: Two Man Forms (Dr. Daryl Covington) 12. Re: Two Man Forms (Dr. Daryl Covington) 13. Re: RE: Jailhouse Rock or 52blocks (Jye nigma) 14. Re:Charles' Kicking Stuff (Jye nigma) 15. Re: 2 man forms (Jye nigma) 16. Re: Boxing Defenses (Jye nigma) 17. Deadly force and 14 year old girls (Brian Beach) 18. Re: 2 person forms (Michael Whalen) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Popofski" To: Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:48:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Boxing Defenses Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think Ray recently mentioned this in a post (and I have also read it numerous times over the years in various forms) that Ji Han Jae developed certain defenses against the quick boxing strikes after watching boxers train in a gym next to his school. Can someone please explain to me what types of techniques or strategy he teaches against a boxer's punches? Thank you in advance for any information anyone can provide on this. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:13:26 -0500 From: "Farral, Kim" To: "Dojang " Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Football not like MA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung... George...You have opened my eyes to some very good points...I have never considered the similarities to that level of detail...having played football in high school long before I knew anything of Martial Arts...it was just a physical sport...bringing the physical aspect to the level of which you describe does give the sport artistic aspects... However, being the cynic that I am...I am not sure how that applies beyond the physical aspect of the sport for the immediate need as opposed to the day-to-day needs beyond the sport which the art offers... If you could provide more insight into the similarities I would be greatly appreciative...thanks for your input...always a student ya know!!! Pil Seung... Kim G. Farral Staff Mechanical Engineer ITT Industries 1919 West Cook Road P.O. Box 3700 Ft. Wayne, Indiana 46801-3700 Phone: (260) 451-6868 Fax: (260) 451-6206 Mobile: (260) 740-7134 ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stuart Rosenberg" To: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:36:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] kapkido kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know what the exact kicks that were as taught by Choi Yong Sool, prior to any addtions from Ji Han Jae or others etc. The Daito-Ryu/Yawara stuff I guess? Thanks Stu --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:30:50 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Women and Deadly Force Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kim You are correct that women generally can more easily justify use of deadly force against an unarmed man, but not because of "feeling an overwhelming sense of danger before a man." It is because of the size and strength difference between the average man and the average woman. A woman has the right to use necessary force to overcome the size/strength difference to protect herself. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:56:11 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Send your wife Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Kim, I loved your post and it reminds me how sad I am that my wife, now 6th Gup has decided to "take a break" from Krotty for a while. Train hard Be Well, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com =================================================== Just to add another voice to the din, I submit this: I have been repeatedly told that women can get away with the use of deadly force easier than men can, because a woman can feel an overwhelming sense of imminent danger before a man. Furthermore, if a woman was to launch a strike that was not at least debilitating, she risks the retaliation of a bigger muscled opponent. Long story short, if he needs killin', send your wife. (Yes, I am laughing as I type this). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:10:43 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 2 man forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> i found out with some interest that there are chinese arts(like the one i practice) that have forms that require 2 people. in my case, the 2 person form is a qin na form. anyway, i was wondering if you folks know of korean arts that have 2 person forms; i haven't come across any as a tae kwon do and hap ki do student. <> Dear Scott, Actually if you do "techniques" with a partner, that would be a two person form. At my old hapkido school it would start with me and my buddy facing each other and instructions on what technique/2 man form to do, then I grab my buddy, he locks my joints, "gently assists me to the mat", pins me at a minimum with a knee on floating rib then "enhances" the lock and/or lights up a pressure point with the other hand. We smile at each other and go Kewl and then I get up and "share the love." Just like open hand solo forms, your instructor is watching for exact foot work, correct timing of waist rotation for muscle addition, for your partner to land exactly where you want him to be, balance, etc.. just like I look for chambered assisting hands, clean set positions and good stances in an open hand solo form..... While I'm on it all the JKD ecclectic, I don't do Kata folks out there also do 2 man forms or they never develop any tools. It could be my attacker "feeds" attack XYZ and I work on parries and counters ABC, it's still a two man form :-) Train with jung do in your heart the rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 7 From: To: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 9:32:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kong Shin Bup pain Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Dewitt, The reason you are thrown so much is that I only get to see you so often, whereas I get to torture "the" red and brown belts every week. Just trying to spread the wealth or pain (depending on point of view). In fact they insisted on it and wouldn't accept no as an answer. :) Lorne Keatley Master Dewitt wrote: > Mr. Keatley wrote, "Yes, I caught that distinction and hopefully it wasn't > lost on others." > In regards to my "major" comment about being a "geup belt holder in Kong > Shin Bup." > It just seems to me that I am getting tossed about an awful lot and much > more often > than certain Red or Brown belts when I visit the Soo (pain city) for a bit > of the > real training(splattering)time. I was hoping that by wearing a white belt > or orange belt that I would get a little lost in the crowd there. Obviously > I am incorrect. > > Regards to you all > Master DeWitt --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:55:31 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] More on Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Craig "you crack me up" Stovall, <> To tell you the truth (and here is where I differ on kicking theory with a lot of the folk that have walked the JKD path) I don't see a problem with your attachment to chambered kicks and foot positions. The torquing kickboxing kick that you refer to, I imagine you're talking about the typical Thai/Burmese boxing delivery structure with the shin as the striking surface. To tell you the truth, I'd prefer to see ALL people learn to kick like this in the beginning...assuming the motivation is to add kicking as a fighting tool, rather than as an aesthetic pursuit (forms competition, etc). Reason being is that this is the fastest way to teach someone to kick hard and fast, and training this modality builds raw power that carries over into everything else you do (punching, throwing, etc). It's all in the hips, baby. From there, you can move on to the foot as a viable weapon. <> MC Actually we teach courtesy top of foot roundhouse to beginners, but with a 135 to 180 degree rotation of the standing foot. I teach the ball of the foot (Breaking) roundhouse to senior gups. Interesting when GM Hodder was teaching at the first Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp, he showed us the quick roundhouse with little to no rotation of the standing foot, and advised that the old traditional rotation was probably better for beginners as it builds all the needed muscles, but puts less stress on the knee joint, and will actually strengthen it in time. Personally after many years of shin checking as a habit in sparring and forgetting my shin guards for informal workouts, I like striking with more shin than instep. <> As far as the chambering, yes a lot of JKD types would probably dog most "croddy" types for chambering their kicks. However, they don't dog on the Savate guys for chambering their kicks (probably because a lot of them sprinkle Savate into their curriculums...instructor preference as you say). To me, it's not about the chamber...it's about the striking surface. If you make the decision of "to hell with it, I'm just going to develop the shin as my kicking weapon", then you can just forget the chambering and go with the Thai structure (which a lot of people have done). <> MC There's a lot I like about the Thai structure kicking. Of course it's not TSD and not KMA so is that a fear of not repeating my instructor, or clutching to what few tools I have put in the box over the years (shrug). I think at some point we will incorporate it at the higher levels... <> ....Then again, you don't need my validation in any of this;) <> MC No, but what's good about this list is the opportunity for discussion, neh? <> <<>> Yes, but this defeats the whole purpose. You want it to be form fitting so that it shows off your rugged animal physique. You also have to push the sleeves up to the elbow to show off the cuts and veins in your bulging forearms. And now you know why I can't wear them... Craig "That's not a beer belly...I stretched my stomach from all the deep breathing exercises" Stovall <> ROFL! Be Well, Charles "12 ounce curls bulging forearms" Richards __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:18:55 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Jailhouse Rock or 52blocks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Looking for some info on the "Jailhouse Rock" or "52 blocks". I hear that it is a very effective empty hand fighting system developed in prisons but have a deep African heritage involvment. If any knows anything about this can you please elaborate or have seen it? I have read a little about it on the internet on some forums but thats it. thanks CB --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:17:42 -0500 From: Dan Monjar Subject: Re:[The_Dojang] Charles' Kicking Stuff To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --On Friday, December 05, 2003 03:01:47 AM -0800 "Stovall, Craig" wrote: > Howevah, I know what it > feels like to get hit in the gut by a roundhouse kick delivered by someone > who has put in the time and effort to condition themselves to stretch > those little piggies back and strike with the ball of the foot. I play TKD so that might be the problem ... but I don't quite see how a roundhouse kick could use the ball of the foot to strike. Can you explain further please? -- Dan --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:26:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Two Man Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In the Pa Sa Ryu System of Tae Kwon Do under Master Kang Rhee, there are several 2 man forms. One is required at 1st Dan, and others at higher Dan levels. I know 2 of the 2 man forms. I believe he has One of them on tape for purchase. Daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:27:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Two Man Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Also, in the Shinsei System, we have a two man Jung Bong Sparring Hyung, and a Ji Pang Ee Sparring Hyung --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:03:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Jailhouse Rock or 52blocks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Never heard of that but prison is like the final frontier for fighting. Jye Stickfighter87@aol.com wrote: Looking for some info on the "Jailhouse Rock" or "52 blocks". I hear that it is a very effective empty hand fighting system developed in prisons but have a deep African heritage involvment. If any knows anything about this can you please elaborate or have seen it? I have read a little about it on the internet on some forums but thats it. thanks CB _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:19:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re:[The_Dojang] Charles' Kicking Stuff To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yeah we used to perform a roundhouse with either the instep or the ball of the foot. It depends on the actual target. Think of it like this. a front thrust kick, versus a front snap kick. The front thrust kick is used to push into the target which will use the ball of the foot, then the front snap kick is used to kick up into the target. So an example target for a thrust kick is the stomach to really kick into the stomach either stopping the attacker or moving them back. An example for the snap kick would be the testicles. so with the different directions, you use different striking surfaces. So the roundhouse uses different striking surfaces as well. Think of it as swinging a bat, and swinging an axe. I've used the ball of my foot in a roundhouse kick to someone's chin, yet the instep to the side of their neck. Jye Dan Monjar wrote: I play TKD so that might be the problem ... but I don't quite see how a roundhouse kick could use the ball of the foot to strike. Can you explain further please? -- Dan _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:27:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 2 man forms To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well a two man set is just like doing forms (kata) but with 2 people. What you were discribing was more like drills being done by 2 people. I think he was asking about true 2 man forms in KMA. Where a from (poomse) was created for 2 people to do together. So in other words, think of your one man form you do. Now imagine you still do the same form but now someone is placed in front of you. So if your opening movement is a low block, the 2nd person would have performed a low kick to make you block. Hope that makes sense. Jye Charles Richards wrote: Dear Scott, Actually if you do "techniques" with a partner, that would be a two person form. At my old hapkido school it would start with me and my buddy facing each other and instructions on what technique/2 man form to do, then I grab my buddy, he locks my joints, "gently assists me to the mat", pins me at a minimum with a knee on floating rib then "enhances" the lock and/or lights up a pressure point with the other hand. We smile at each other and go Kewl and then I get up and "share the love." Just like open hand solo forms, your instructor is watching for exact foot work, correct timing of waist rotation for muscle addition, for your partner to land exactly where you want him to be, balance, etc.. just like I look for chambered assisting hands, clean set positions and good stances in an open hand solo form..... While I'm on it all the JKD ecclectic, I don't do Kata folks out there also do 2 man forms or they never develop any tools. It could be my attacker "feeds" attack XYZ and I work on parries and counters ABC, it's still a two man form :-) Train with jung do in your heart the rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:30:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Boxing Defenses To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I personally don't know, but I do know the simultaeneous block-strike combination works great against boxing. Jye George Popofski wrote: Can someone please explain to me what types of techniques or strategy he teaches against a boxer's punches? Thank you in advance for any information anyone can provide on this. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:33:48 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Deadly force and 14 year old girls Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Agreed, there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. My position and the laws position is human life is valued above property. If your life is threatened - well that's a different story. <> http://biz.findlaw.com/business_commercial/legal/source/faqs/faq367.html I also believe that people need to be held responsible for their actions but ethics are a subjective thing. My moral code may not correspond to yours. So by enacting laws we find some common ground that we can act upon. Your example of sex with a fourteen year old girl, yes I find that MORALLY/ETHICALLY objectionable. The only states that have that as an age of consent law is Hawaii and South Carolina. In both states you need parental consent. The logic is as follows - if parental consent is required then the CHILD is not able to make that decision on there own and has no say in the situation. If your code of ethics includes that a child of 14 that may or may not be biologically sexually mature and emotionally ready for a sexual relationship but should be subjected to one, and can be bartered like cattle, I would have a hard time arguing that it is not. It fits into YOUR ethical code. Again, ethics are subjective, and the law steps in to try and find some common ground. I too believe that jury nullification is a powerful tool. I would like to see it applied to some "victimless" crimes, which you may find morally reprehensible. I don't engage in the acts but see no harm in what consenting ADULTS do with or put in their bodies. Laws are our best attempt at protecting all citizens. Is it perfect - no - but it is what we have to work with. Some "dumb" laws from: South Carolina - http://www.dumblaws.com/states/states.php?State=South%20Carolina Hawaii - http://www.dumblaws.com/states/states.php?State=Hawaii Maryland - http://www.dumblaws.com/states/states.php?State=Maryland Brian On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 10:52 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > Good Sir: > There are two types of "right and wrong". There is the "ethical" > or > adherence to the written law, and there is the "moral" "it just isn't > right > law or code of conduct". If you read the entire thread, you must have > read > where I bemoaned the downturn of a nation where the rights of > criminals are > protected before the rights of the "just". In analogy, in the state I > live > in, a man of legal age can have consenual sex with a girl of 14. THIS > ISN'T > RIGHT you might proclaim, but I can assure you , it's ethical. --__--__-- Message: 18 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:45:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 2 person forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net KSW has them with and without weapons..... michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest