Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:58:11 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #550 - 21 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Christmas in Connecticut (and New York) (J.R. West) 2. Re: ball of foot roundhouse (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 3. Re: Tiger Schulman School Wins Court Decision (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 4. Two man forms (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Hapkido kicks (Barrie Restall) 6. Chang Moo Kwan (2-man) forms (Michael Falba) 7. Re: Bassai (Bernard Redfield) 8. Hyoung, Palgwe & Kata (Oludipe O. Tolulope) 9. RE: Enlightenment (Stanley Wojcoski) 10. hapkido (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 11. Round Kicks (Brooke Thomas) 12. more 2 person forms (scottm@scubadiving.com) 13. Balance (Todd W Deininger) 14. Mr. Whittemore............. (George Peters) 15. Patrick L. on life... (George Peters) 16. re:Two Man Forms (Troy Trudeau) 17. TKD Dojang in OHIO? (Sheree Goldstein) 18. Round house kick variations (David Weller) 19. Chi Dai (Dan A. Currie) 20. :[The_Dojang] Charles' Kicking Stuff (Todd) 21. RE: Jailhouse Rock or 52blocks (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:07:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Christmas in Connecticut (and New York) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to take an early opportunity to wish everyone an excellent holiday season. My daughter and I will be heading north to visit some family that she has never met before, and Chris LaCava has been kind enough to invite us to his dojang in Westport. CT, on Monday the 22nd, to teach a couple of hours of Hapkido to anyone that has an interest. Chris can be reached at lacavamartialarts@hotmail.com . The next day we will hook up with my old friend Hal Whalen (who will be a guest instructor at our Jackson seminar in March) and get the grand Irish tour of Boston before heading to NYC to let my daughter do some post-Christmas shopping (personally, I would rather have a badger loose in my fruit-of-the-looms). I have only been "home" twice in almost 40 years and I am looking forward to the trip, and especially spending time with some old friends. Best to all........J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:28:59 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ball of foot roundhouse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I play TKD so that might be the problem ... but I don't quite see how a roundhouse kick could use the ball of the foot to strike.  Can you explain further please?" we teach both kicks as well. ball of foot is taught as you move up in rank. additionally, we also teach traditional roundhouse (more rotation, more turnover) and speed/sport roundhouse (not as much rotation, not as much turnover). for the ball of foot roundhouse, its the same traditional style roundhouse kick except instead of pointing your toes, your foot is fully perpendicular to your lower leg. example of use on the ball of foot roundhouse would be kicking up under the rib cage, to the solar plexus, diaphragm or to the heart. obviously, pointed blows to these targets can be quite damaging. this is simply because the ball of foot is more penetrating, pin point, than the flat blow of a traditional roundhouse. hope this helps, melinda :) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:35:51 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tiger Schulman School Wins Court Decision Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Karate Center Is Outside Regulation Under Pennsylvania's Health Club Act Karate instruction centers do not fall within the definition of a "health club" within the meaning of the state's Health Club Act, and their owners could not violate the Act's provisions, according to a decision by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court (Pennsylvania v. Tiger Schulmann's Karate Centers, Pa., No. 57 MAP 2001, 12/19/02). for more on that story, check out: http://0-pubs.bna.com.pegasus.law.columbia.edu/ip/BNA/Atr.NSF/b98e90baa7fc51df85256b520075bdf7/303f737cb1c5bcdf85256ca900 7e151d?OpenDocument take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:51:20 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Two man forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye writes: > Well a two man set is just like doing forms (kata) but with 2 people. > What you were discribing was more like drills being done by 2 people. > I think he was asking about true 2 man forms in KMA. Where a from > (poomse) was created for 2 people to do together. So in other words, > think of your one man form you do. Now imagine you still do the same > form but now someone is placed in front of you. So if your opening > movement is a low block, the 2nd person would have performed a low > kick to make you block. Hope that makes sense. Hello Jye: When you say your opening move is a low block, the second person would have performed a low kick, it is the same as when we react to an upper lip punch, dodge the punch, and execute a counter technique... like Charles said, a two man form. When you do a solo form, you visualize the partner. When you do techniques with a partner as Charles describes, you don't have to visualize... he or she IS there. Agreed, most such techniques are very short, but as we string a group of such techniques together it becomes more like the forms we normally see. IMHO, and apparently in Charles' opinion as well, whenever you do a more or less prearranged set of techniques where one partner knows ahead of time what will be the next move, it is a form. As Michael said in his post, in Kuk Sool and Kong Shin Bup (as well as other Korean arts) this can be a prearranged set such as Guen Daeryun consisting of strikes, kicks, and throws, Bong Daeryun sparring with staffs, or Gum Dearyun sparring with swords (preferably dull ones:) The benefit of doing such two man forms is that it is less forgiving than an empty hand form with just visualizing a partner. For example, if more advance students are doing Chiruki Sool with me, they had better not forget to dodge as I WILL punch where they are now standing. Forgetting to dodge will result in a controlled but painful reminder:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Barrie Restall" To: Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:00:40 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net According to DJ Kim Yun Sang (Hapkiyusul) Choi Yung Sul taught 16 kicks which he said were taught to him byTakeda. All the kicks are aimed at pressure points, and include twisting kicks similar to some in GM Ji's curriculum. There are no spinning kicks or turning kicks, one back kick, and only two kicks above the solar plexus. The kicks are practiced every class as part of the warm up. For more details of these kicks you will have to approach DJ Kim Yun Sang. Kind regards, Barrie Restall --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Falba" To: Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:12:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chang Moo Kwan (2-man) forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << I seem to recall that one of the kwans (Chang Moo Kwan?) had some two person forms/hyung/poomse that they practiced. (Did I get the kwan right?) Do any of the CMK folks out there still practice/teach these forms? >> Hello: My Dojang, Elmwood Martial Arts, is a Chayon-Ryu Korean Martial Arts School based in New Orleans. Our lineage comes from Grand Master Kim Soo who in part derives his martial legacy from GM Yoon, Byung-In (Chang Moo Kwan) and also the Kang Duk Won. We also practice several two person forms. Our 2 person forms are of Chinese kwonbop/chuan-fa origin. Also as an additional note, our Okinawan based hyung also originate with Toyama Kanken's Shudokan. Mike Falba --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:00:14 -0500 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bassai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<<<<(Bassai or Pal Che mean "collection of the best")>>>>> I have heard something similar, "Collection of the Best and Fastest" I have also heard it translated as, "Enter the Fortress" and to "Penetrate a Fortress" the proper name for the form would be Bal Sae. Also I don't think the Characters used in the name mention a fortress at all. Bernard --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 07:09:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Oludipe O. Tolulope" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyoung, Palgwe & Kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwon, Please can anyone direct me to sites where Hyoung/ Palgwe/ Kata can be viewed, preferably in motion picture format, like the Poomse that used to be hosted by blackbeltworld.com in *.mpg? Thanks. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stanley Wojcoski" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:10:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Enlightenment Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Patrick wrote: snip>Some of us are already enlightened, and don't steal. IMHO Imminent Death encourages enlightenment, and if a thief dies in an enlightened state, then have we not performed them a service? To: Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:15:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I put together a web page of our trip to the grave of the founder of hapkido, Choi Young Sul. You will find pictures of the front and the back of the headstone as well as the side of the mountain the grave is on. These are all thumbnails, so if you click on the pictures they will enlarge. There are about 20 pictures on the page. It is at http://www.hapkidoselfdefense.com/doju.htm. Enjoy. Jere R. Hilland --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 07:43:35 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Round Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Recently there was a discussion of throwing chambered round kicks versus more of a Muay Tai round kick. I was having a private lesson yesterday and was starting with the basics and I asked my instructor, why wouldn't I want to throw a "faster" unchambered kick? He asked what would happen if I missed my target? He then demonstrated that to me as we went to a fighting stance and I threw a Muay Tai kick to his front leg...which he moved at the last second...and as I was spinning around, he moved in and had my back (which he easily could have wrestled me to the ground, rear choke, nighty-night, etc). Yes, he knew in advance I was going to throw that particular "fast" kick but I have seen misses happen with professionals too. I'm guessing that Muay Tai kicks were developed to use against opponents where the 'rules' exclude take-downs. A properly thrown chambered round kick not only leaves one in a better position after its thrown but you also can make the decision while whipping the knee around to not extend the foot should the situation have changed (or you want to fake the roundhouse and throw a following heel kick). I am curious if anyone else has thoughts on missed Muay Tai kicks. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:09:43 -0500 (EST) From: scottm@scubadiving.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] more 2 person forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net thanks for all the info and insight, everyone :) yes, i was referring to hyungs where you need 2 people to do them(e.g. blocking a kick from your partner, then counter-attacking). very interesting stuff--i can see where practicing 2 person forms could get kids more interested in learning forms. the style of tkd that i practiced was of an olympic flavor...no one had ever mentioned there were such things as 2-person forms. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Todd W Deininger" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Balance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know this comes a little late, but since Bruce brought me into this conversation I feel as though I need to respond. On 11/29, Vol 10 #537, Bruce wrote: "Excuse me but I disagree. At the seminar that I attended in Colorado there was no talk of taking the balance, un-focusing, redirecting, un-timing or any of the other less obvious aspects of the Hapkido arts. GM Ji did not mention it. I saw none of the students attempting it. I heard none of the practitioners discussing it. What WAS discussed, attempted and mentioned was the simple mechanics of leaverage and pain-compliance. It is most certainly effective yu sool but IMHO only approaches hapki-yu-sool without actually getting there. If GM Ji's following is as widespread as people say, and if his instruction in Colorado was typical, then it becomes plain why most Hapkido practitioners are, at best, yu sool adepts and do not seem to be able to get past this level of performance. FWIW. " To say there was no talk of balance, I would respond that once again Bruce you are fabricating things to make your argument. I distinctly remember working with you and your partner Dave on certain techniques and mentioning off-balance. To say that I do not attempt off-balance gave me a hearty laugh. I mentioned this string of posts to my wife and her response was "ridiculous". She is still having a good chuckle over it. I am also a little confused about how in one sentence you say we don't off-balance and in the next you go on to describe how we take an attacker off-balance. Do not the "simple mechanics of leaverage " take someone off-balance. Do we not use "pain-compliance" to take someone off-balance. Bruce, I am sorry that you did not enjoy your visit to CSU, but I believe that the few hours you spent on the mat with us in no way qualify you as a expert in Sin Moo. Maybe next time instead of disappearing early, stick around and ask some questions. Todd Sin Moo Colorado --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 03:48:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Whittemore............. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Don't know where this info comes from, I am taught by a first generation Korean student of Hwang Kee. The meaning I gave is also the answer to a common question asked at all 2nd, 1st gup and 1st Dan tests in our federation. It is the only meaning I have heard attributed to this form by any senior master. Prior to changing the name to Pal Che, it was still known to be "collection of the best"(higher, lower) Not saying that GM C.S. Kim is infallible, I just can't see anyone who has over 50 years studying Tang Soo Do would make a mistake on something like this. I WILL ask when I get the chance, which won't be for a week or so. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our best MSN Dial-up offer of the year — six months @$9.95/month. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 03:52:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Patrick L. on life... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: I salute your teaching skills! Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Get holiday tips for festive fun. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:11:08 -0800 (PST) From: Troy Trudeau To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] re:Two Man Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Bulson, You are correct about the two man forms in Chang Moo Kwan, In the system of PaSaRyu, under the direction of GM Kang Rhee, in Memphis TN, He was also a schoolmate with GM Kim Soo in TX, GM Rhee , the Cha Yon Ryu system that GM Soo teachs is very mush like PaSaRyu, they both have several two man hyungs in their curriculum, I have been studying under GM Rhee for over 20 years in the PaSaryu System, I have actuallly developed my system of Tae Sool Won with alot of the techniques and principles of PaSaRyu in it, along with the addition of Kuk Sool as well, Sincerely, Troy Trudeau www.wtswa.com --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:30:57 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Sheree Goldstein Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Dojang in OHIO? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I may be traveling to the Hudson/Streetsboro area of OH in a couple of weeks. Does anyone know of a dojang in that area that might be willing to have a guest work out there for a night or two? I study WTF TKD, but we do Palgue forms up to 1st dan, then taeguks. Thanks, Sheree --__--__-- Message: 18 Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:24:25 -0600 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Round house kick variations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Monjar, This is interesting to me. I had always assumed that every TKD player had heard the some admonition as I always did when performing a roundhouse kick. "Keep your toes back!" Attacking with the ball of the foot would be used in a kick against a hard target; Jaw, rib, stack of lumber. While the instep would be used to attack a "softer" target; groin, neck (as Jye noted) or hanging bag. The kick is identical except the toes are pulled back to use the ball of the foot. Sport TKD seems to be very much in love with the instep RH kick. For self defense I would lean towards using the ball of the foot. It's basically the difference between being slapped with an open palm, or smacked with knuckles. For those of us who are required to wear steel toed boots on a daily basis, it becomes a moot point. It's gonna hurt (the bad guy) either way! Have a groovy day, dave weller On Friday, December 5, 2003, at 07:04 PM, Dan Monjar wrote: > > "Stovall, Craig" wrote: >> Howevah, I know what it >> feels like to get hit in the gut by a roundhouse kick delivered by >> someone >> who has put in the time and effort to condition themselves to stretch >> those little piggies back and strike with the ball of the foot. > > I play TKD so that might be the problem ... but I don't quite > see how > a roundhouse kick could use the ball of the foot to strike. Can you > explain further please? > > -- > Dan --__--__-- Message: 19 Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 15:33:46 -0600 From: "Dan A. Currie" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chi Dai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, Has anyone here heard of the "Chi Dai" form in TKD? If so, do you have either a written or pictograph version of the form that you could send to my email? I have seen it performed once and it seems to be twice as long as Bassai Dai. Thank you, Dan --__--__-- Message: 20 From: "Todd" To: Subject: :[The_Dojang] Charles' Kicking Stuff Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:44:14 +1100 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I play TKD so that might be the problem ... but I don't quite see how a roundhouse kick could use the ball of the foot to strike. Can you explain further please? -- Dan" I am wondering what TKD you do Dan. fwiw....... I train TKD in Australia, the ONLY roundhouse kick (we call it 'turning kick') we train is kicking with ball of foot, toes pulled back. We don't use top of foot as a hard impact will break the foot bones (a solid block or elbow will also). We don't train with any padding or guards, so it is intrenched into junior belts to kick with ball of foot. In our school it is actually considered quite poor form to use top of foot for any kicks in training. (I realise though, on the street, shoes or boots can change the technique you actually use in a reallife situation.) I find by kicking against a brick wall, standing at about 45degrees, you will soon learn to pull back the toes and hit the target with the ball of your foot. Start off softly/slowly and build up speed, timing the kick to just impact wall. You will develop the feel for the correct position of your foot this way. cheers, Todd --__--__-- Message: 21 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 08:53:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Jailhouse Rock or 52blocks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> The definitive internet source is probably going to be the tripod site out there by a guy who goes by the name "Stickgrappler". Do an altavista search for 52 blocks, and it should get you there. I know he archived some interviews with Dennis Newsome a few years ago, and there's some other info about JHR/52 Blocks on that site. I haven't looked at it in a while, but I was one of the people that formulated some of the questions to be passed along to Newsome. I e-mailed Marc Denny and Burton Richardson about this a few years ago on the off-chance that they'd ever been exposed to it. They didn't know much about it, although they had both met Dennis Newsome at some point. Newsome is the cat that you want to track down if you're really interested. He's done numerous magazine articles, and has been featured in both of John Steven Soet's "Martial Arts from Around the World" books. I'd do a websearch on 'Dennis Newsome Capoeira', and that will probably turn up some info. I think 'Details' magazine also had an article devoted to this a few years ago. Also, look for a book called 'Street Kingdom: Five Years Inside the Franklin Avenue Posse'. I think the folks behind this book were the inspiration for the Details article. I don't know how much JHR is in the book, but it will at least give insight to the culture from which this stuff springs from. Opinions on this stuff vary. Some people think it's a crock and doesn't exist. Others think it's a super secret closed door fighting system. The most interesting thing is the reference to "52 blocks" that has shown up in numerous rap songs over the last few years...particularly by the harder edge groups. The Wu-tang clan comes to mind. To me, this seems to suggest that there's SOMETHING out there in terms of a systematic fighting art that circulates within African-American street/prison cultures. Who knows. Hope this helps. Craig "Not a Former Gang Member" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest