Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 03:01:49 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #551 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. The Enlightenment of Theives (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 2. RE: Round Kicks (Stovall, Craig) 3. message 8, Hyoung, Palgwe & Kata (John Merwin) 4. Re: ball of foot roundhouse (Robert Martin) 5. value of a life (Patrick L) 6. RE: Ball Of Foot Round House (Farral, Kim) 7. BALL OF FOOT ROUNDHOUSE (Richard Tomlinson) 8. 2 man drills (Charles Richards) 9. Muay Tai kick (Charles Richards) 10. Round Kick Strike Pont (John Nowicki) 11. Re: Christmas in Connecticut (and New York) (Braeswood Martial Arts) 12. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shudokan?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 13. Re: Two man forms (Jye nigma) 14. TKD Orgs under probe (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:06:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Enlightenment of Theives Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Patrick, I loved your response. ROFL! Danny Dunn <<<<<<<>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:31:56 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Round Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> To be blunt, the problem is not so much with the kick, but with how you have interpreted the kick. The kick is not so much a "roundhouse" in the traditional sense. There should be more of a forward angle to the kick, and the striking surface should be the shin. Yes, a pure roundhouse kick with the foot as the striking weapon can leave you spinning if someone simply steps back and removes the target. This should rarely happen with a properly thrown low Thai round kick. Imagine this, you are looking down upon the person being kicked. The back of their head is 12:00, and their nose is at 6:00. Assuming a kicker standing directly in front of them...the traditional front kick goes straight in and hits them at 6:00. The traditional roundhouse approaches from the side and strikes at 3:00 or 9:00. A thai kick should approach the target on the plane somewhere between 6:00 and 3:00 (or 6:00 and 9:00). Another analogy I draw is from Filipino martial arts. If I swing the stick at someone's head on a pure horizontal line, they can just duck and I've missed. However, if I swing that stick at an angle (drawing from shoulder to hip) then I've just made it impossible for them to "just duck". Same thing with the Thai round kick...if I work the angle correctly then there's no chance for them to just "move their leg". They either have to eat the kick, block it, or stop-hit on the way in. Even if I somehow missed, my body attitude and direction of the kick should not compel me to have to spin around and expose my back to the opponent. Now with head kicks, this angle is more difficult to perform, and it takes on more of a roundhouse flavor. You see a lot of missed high kicks in Muay Thai where the guy just leans back and removes the target. In this case, the fighter is taught to just go with the missed kick and spin completely around to their fighting stance. When done quickly this should offer little chance for an opponent to attack, since they were leaning away to avoid the kick to begin with. By the time they've re-grouped and poised for attack, you should be ready and facing them again. You see different variations of the Thai kick, but the one I've been trained to do (and the one I think is "correct") approaches along a forward plane towards the target. This is one reason why you "step-in" with the forward leg when doing the Thai kick, as opposed to just picking up the back leg and rotating on the forward leg. Big difference in the mechanics. Hope this helps. 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Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:41:27 -0800 (PST) From: John Merwin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] message 8, Hyoung, Palgwe & Kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net try one or both of these web sites. They are more in tune to TKD forms and not Katas look at; http://www.brown.edu/Students/Tae_Kwon_Do/flashindex.html or http://fish.com/tkd/tkd_poomse.html hope I did not type them wrong. If so e-mail and I will send them to you CIMA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:46:53 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ball of foot roundhouse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is basically how the ITF turning kick is done. The tool of the kick is the ball of the foot. The kick is considered a high kick. We teach it this way at 8th Gup. The position of the knee is different as is the position of the foot when the kick is executed. Robert Martin Message: 2 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:28:59 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ball of foot roundhouse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I play TKD so that might be the problem ... but I don't quite see how a roundhouse kick could use the ball of the foot to strike. Can you explain further please?" we teach both kicks as well. ball of foot is taught as you move up in rank. additionally, we also teach traditional roundhouse (more rotation, more turnover) and speed/sport roundhouse (not as much rotation, not as much turnover). for the ball of foot roundhouse, its the same traditional style roundhouse kick except instead of pointing your toes, your foot is fully perpendicular to your lower leg. example of use on the ball of foot roundhouse would be kicking up under the rib cage, to the solar plexus, diaphragm or to the heart. obviously, pointed blows to these targets can be quite damaging. this is simply because the ball of foot is more penetrating, pin point, than the flat blow of a traditional roundhouse. hope this helps, melinda :) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:31:50 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] value of a life Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Feldstein, Most of what I had to say was tongue in cheek to focus the mind not on the value of the item, nor on the value of the thief's life, but to focus on the thief's disdain for the value of others. But in reading your relpy, it occured to me... a theif's life is only your's to spare - if you are justified in taking it. I don't think that is what you meant, is it? Getting in the Way, Patrick >I myself find no trouble mustering enough empathy for a television theif to spare his life. -- scott d. feldstein< _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our best MSN Dial-up offer of the year — six months @$9.95/month. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:47:29 -0500 From: "Farral, Kim" To: "Dojang " Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Ball Of Foot Round House Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung... Melinda...You are correct in the use of the Ball of Foot round house...However... the foot is not Perpendicular to the leg it is inline with the leg so that the ball of the foot is in a straight line with the hip (the foot pointed down and the toes pulled up...just like standing on tip toes)... If you point your foot perpendicular to your leg to deliver the kick...the resulting force will be a shearing force across your ankle as your foot will take almost the full impact...this is NOT good for the ankle...point the foot down...pull the toes back... the ball of the foot also limits the stress upon the person delivering the kick as it distributes the impact force through the entire leg, hip, and upper body...the ball of foot delivers the impact force to one square inch making for a far more devastating and powerful technique...(often called the "Breaking Technique")... AND I believe you will find that the "Traditional" Roundhouse IS the Ball of foot...using the instep of the foot is a technique used in sparring to limit the impact to the person receiving the blow as a much larger surface area makes contact thereby distributing the impact force over a much larger area "Reducing" the risk NOT eliminating the risk of broken bones and internal ruptures... Pil Seung... The One and Only "TINK" ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:15:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] BALL OF FOOT ROUNDHOUSE Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We have been taught early to use the top of the foot but as you go up in rank the ball of the foot is prefered. It feels awkward at first but is when learned properly a very powerful technique. In fact we are not allowed to break boards with a roundhouse with any other technique. sandy, Chester Sun Do Kwan TKD School instructor. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:51:07 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 2 man drills Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> The benefit of doing such two man forms is that it is less forgiving than an empty hand form with just visualizing a partner. For example, if more advance students are doing Chiruki Sool with me, they had better not forget to dodge as I WILL punch where they are now standing. Forgetting to dodge will result in a controlled but painful reminder:) Sincerely, Rudy <> Good to see a little "hockey love" applied at the higher levels. Almost all my senior students have dents in the forehead from the few times they forgot to zone left or right when doing step sparring and tried to hold up a hand and say "wait I was trying to remember a specific really kewl counter" :-) Seriously, one drill we do is step sparring with hand and headgear on and the attacker punches the headgear on my count (or at higher levels signal that the defender can't see). The point is to NOT GET HIT....THEN do a really kewl counter... BTW, Sajanim is right on my opinion we (and many others) bow before starting and at the end of step sparring and the attacker isusually limited do doing what the defender knows is coming and at the lower and intermediate levels the attacker usually knows what really kewl counter is coming. I think I was about 4th gup the first time my Hapkido class instructor put me in an arm bar and just before I was gonna tap, pivoted into a figure four throw. You haven't lived until you go from bending over from a really strong arm bar to seeing your elbow come up in the field of vision with just enough time in your mind to say OMG (or oh SHEEZY) before doing a textbook circle fall (airwheel), not knowing it was coming. Anyway, my point is most two man drills/forms/thingymajigs have all the elements of a solo form plus a little more reality as Sajanim refers to. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:02:32 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Muay Tai kick Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Brooke, I'm not an expert, but most MT fighters fully commit to the low unchambered RH, so much so that if they miss, they generally just spin completely around. This is often how they practice the kick in shadow boxing combos. I assume so as not to teach the habit of holding anyhting back on that kick. Sometime if they are really good they will set the kicking foot down at the 180 degree mark and finish with a back kick or spinning heel kick to adsorb the remaining inertia...Watch seminars or old videos of Kathy "The punisher" Long and or current full contact kickboxers and you will see them spin and recover to "fighting" stance after a miss... Cheers, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com ---------------------------------------------------- He then demonstrated that to me as we went to a fighting stance and I threw a Muay Tai kick to his front leg...which he moved at the last second...and as I was spinning around, he moved in and had my back (which he easily could have wrestled me to the ground, rear choke, nighty-night, etc). Yes, he knew in advance I was going to throw that particular "fast" kick but I have seen misses happen with professionals too. I'm guessing that Muay Tai kicks were developed to use against opponents where the 'rules' exclude take-downs. A properly thrown chambered round kick not only leaves one in a better position after its thrown but you also can make the decision while whipping the knee around to not extend the foot should the situation have changed (or you want to fake the roundhouse and throw a following heel kick). I am curious if anyone else has thoughts on missed Muay Tai kicks. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "John Nowicki" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:14:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Round Kick Strike Pont Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everybody I am a longtime lurker who has finally been motivated to submit. Mr. Weller had said the instep round kick was like slapping with an open palm. I definitely disagree with this. The instep is a hard striking point just as the ball of the foot is. My instructor has taught me to strike with a specific part of the instep (approximately 1 inch by 3 inches) and never with the large area of the top of the foot. He has also taught me how to strike with the ball, but informed me that since I practice daily with the instep I will instinctively react with an instep roundkick as opposed to the ball in a street situation. I am confident in the ability to damage ones ribs, blow out a knee, dislocate a jaw, etc. with this srike point. You can condition this strike point in the same fashion you would condition others. I have sparred with people who use this kick as a slap, and this kick usually generates more noise than a noticeable impact required for a point. When considering the issue of practicality one must consider the style of shoes they wear day to day. I agree strongly that those who wear work boots should be in the habit of using the ball. This is in the same fashion that military people are taught kicks with the toe becuase of the combat boots they wear. I personally wear tennis shoes daily, and occasionally dress shoes. When I practice with my shoes on I find it more practical to extend the foot for the instep because there is little protection for the toes and the shoes do not allow me to pull my toes up. The shoe material also creates a tiny bit of padding that might protect your foot. As far as breaking goes I will break boards with either the ball or instep, although if I was to stray down the path of more difficult breaks (multiple boards) I would use my ball. The choice one has to make, instep or ball, should include many factors. Are you in MA for self defense, sport, hobby, health, or whatever you choose. If the answer is self defense you shoould consider what shoes you wear on a daily basis. There are definitely arguments for both points (bad pun) of this argument I just felt I should stick up for the instep. Always respectful, John M. Nowicki, 3rd Gup TKD _________________________________________________________________ Shop online for kids’ toys by age group, price range, and toy category at MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you! http://shopping.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Christmas in Connecticut (and New York) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:46:34 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Master West, Please have a safe and wonderful Holiday. You and (M) your daughter will have a great time I am sure. Thank you again for the great hospitality you showed to me on my short visit to the great state of MS and a special thanks to all your students (especially that single color belt) who showed I am not the only one sick enough to want to come out and train on a holiday weekend. I have stolen your idea of the star and used it when Mr. Wicker came to teach a special TSD class to my students. Give my regards to Mr. Watkins and his lovely wife who made the steak dinner much more fun, not to mention the great game of hide and seek :) Sincerely, Kat ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.R. West" To: Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:07 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Christmas in Connecticut (and New York) > I would like to take an early opportunity to wish everyone an excellent > holiday season. My daughter and I will be heading north to visit some family > that she has never met before, and Chris LaCava has been kind enough to invite > us to his dojang in Westport. CT, on Monday the 22nd, to teach a couple of > hours of Hapkido to anyone that has an interest. Chris can be reached at > lacavamartialarts@hotmail.com . The next day we will hook up with my old > friend Hal Whalen (who will be a guest instructor at our Jackson seminar in > March) and get the grand Irish tour of Boston before heading to NYC to let my > daughter do some post-Christmas shopping (personally, I would rather have a > badger loose in my fruit-of-the-looms). I have only been "home" twice in > almost 40 years and I am looking forward to the trip, and especially spending > time with some old friends. Best to all........J. R. West www.hapkido.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:51:31 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shudokan?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mike: ".......Also as an additional note, our Okinawan based hyung also originate with Toyama Kanken's Shudokan......" Does your Shudokan tradition include the use of the Pinan/Naifanchi/Passai kata or does your material derive strictly from Sensei Toyamas' own kata. I very interested to hear more about what this material is and how it was incorporated into your styles' curriculum. Any comments would be appreciated. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:02:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Two man forms To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The example I gave is just an example but a 2 man form is only a form done or designed for 2 people to perform with each other. Now the difference between a form and a drill are many. One could almost look at forms a complete story while drills are fragments. So if for instance, if a form told a complete story, a drill would only tell one minut point of the story. A drill works on and/or fine tunes your instinct, reflexes, and real time thinking skills. A form is a set number of movements/techniques that are already arranged in a set UNCHANGABLE sequence. So one must fit into the form, the form will not adjust for the person. The same is not true for drills. A drill can be changed to fit the person. Jye Rudy Timmerman wrote: Hello Jye: When you say your opening move is a low block, the second person would have performed a low kick, it is the same as when we react to an upper lip punch, dodge the punch, and execute a counter technique... like Charles said, a two man form. When you do a solo form, you visualize the partner. When you do techniques with a partner as Charles describes, you don't have to visualize... he or she IS there. Agreed, most such techniques are very short, but as we string a group of such techniques together it becomes more like the forms we normally see. IMHO, and apparently in Charles' opinion as well, whenever you do a more or less prearranged set of techniques where one partner knows ahead of time what will be the next move, it is a form. As Michael said in his post, in Kuk Sool and Kong Shin Bup (as well as other Korean arts) this can be a prearranged set such as Guen Daeryun consisting of strikes, kicks, and throws, Bong Daeryun sparring with staffs, or Gum Dearyun sparring with swords (preferably dull ones:) The benefit of doing such two man forms is that it is less forgiving than an empty hand form with just visualizing a partner. For example, if more advance students are doing Chiruki Sool with me, they had better not forget to dodge as I WILL punch where they are now standing. Forgetting to dodge will result in a controlled but painful reminder:) Sincerely, Rudy _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:38:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Orgs under probe Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From The Korea Herald... Taekwondo organizations under probe Two major taekwondo governing bodies based in Korea have been caught in a dragnet by investigators looking into allegations of improper financial and personnel management. The Seoul District Prosecutor's Office has secured search warrants from the court and is tracing the financial transactions of Kim Un-yong, president of the World Taekwondo Federation, and his relatives as well as that of officials of the Korea Taekwondo Association, investigators said yesterday. A travel ban has been slapped on the representatives and most of their senior officials. Executive leaders of the two taekwondo groups have been implicated in bribery cases surrounding the selection of the national team, internal promotion and commercial projects based on animated characters associated with the martial art as motifs. A vice president of the International Olympic Committee, Kim is also a lawmaker who belongs to the opposition Millennium Democratic Party and served as the KTA president until early last year. In a related move, prosecutors indicted KTA President Koo Cheon-seo last week on charges of obstructing his rival in the election campaign last year to take the current post. According to the prosecution, Koo employed hired muscle to block supporters of the rival candidate from attending the voting session and paid bribes to high-ranking KTA officials. Koo replaced Kim Un-yong after his predecessor was forced to step down and take responsibility for growing internal disputes surrounding the qualifying tournament for the national taekwondo team. At the time, a group of Kim's relatives were working on the judging staff and were accused of giving favors to certain competitors. Back in February 2002, the prosecution nabbed a senior KTA official accused of using his influence over referees to help a player join the national team through favorable decisions on games, in return for illicit financial rewards. khjack@heraldm.com By Choe Yong-shik 2003.12.09 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest