Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:01:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #552 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Ball Of Foot Round House (Lasich, Mark D.) 2. Lifes lessons for fat wannabes (Wayne Watkins) 3. Balance breaks (Wayne Watkins) 4. 2 man stories (Charles Richards) 5. more round kick stuff (David Weller) 6. Re: Round house kick variations (Ray Terry) 7. Stepping in and Kicking (FirstPe315@aol.com) 8. Counters in One Step Sparring (FirstPe315@aol.com) 9. Hacked up from the depths of hell (joseph lumpkin) 10. re: meaning of Bassai (Bobby Whittemore) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:00:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Ball Of Foot Round House Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tink wrote: "Melinda...You are correct in the use of the Ball of Foot round house...However... the foot is not Perpendicular to the leg it is inline with the leg so that the ball of the foot is in a straight line with the hip (the foot pointed down and the toes pulled up...just like standing on tip toes)..." I understand what you say next about shearing force, but this would be no different than, say, a hook kick, a knifehand strike, backfist, etc. I must agree with Melinda on how I've been taught in both TSD and TKD. In fact, the end result of the round kick is not distinguishable from a properly thrown side kick (if the leg was held locked out after kicking) - only the striking target is the ball of the foot not the heel. If I can imagine what you've described, it almost sounds like a sideways front kick! The "round" part of the round kick seems like its range of motion would be somewhat limited, as kicking to transfer the force toward the hips would bring more of a straight-in kick, than coming from the side, or "round". Is this the case? Instep round kicks have been reserved for sparring. It minimizes impact on your partner, and gives further reach with the kick! In this case, I would imagine the shearing force referred to would also play into the instep style kick - fortunately the person you are striking will simply fall from the impact ;-) I thought I heard one time that something like only 8 pounds of pressure could be enough to break bones on the top of the foot (instep) - anyone know if this is correct! As far as "spinning" if the target is removed from a round kick......I need some help in understanding the control of the kick if so much power is put into the kick that one cannot control what happens if they miss their target, or it is otherwise removed......Yet if this does happen, wouldn't the next logical kick be a spinning side kick :-) Great combo! In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:01:06 -0600 From: "Wayne Watkins" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Lifes lessons for fat wannabes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A turkey was chatting with a bull. "I would love to be able to get to the top of that tree," sighed the turkey, but I haven't got the energy." "Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?" replied the bull. "They're packed with nutrients." The turkey pecked at a lump of dung and found that it actually gave him enough strength to reach the lowest branch of the tree. The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second branch. Finally after a fourth night, there he was proudly perched at the top of the tree. Soon he was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot the turkey out of the tree. Moral of the story: Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:06:40 -0600 From: "Wayne Watkins" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Balance breaks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I first started HapKiDo (seems like only yesterday) I was taught that every technique has three parts: 1. Lowering of your center of gravity 2. A balance break 3. A decreasing radius circle Wayne Watkins wwatkins@holmescc.edu --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:16:02 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 2 man stories Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> The example I gave is just an example but a 2 man form is only a form done or designed for 2 people to perform with each other. Now the difference between a form and a drill are many. One could almost look at forms a complete story while drills are fragments. So if for instance, if a form told a complete story, a drill would only tell one minut point of the story. A drill works on and/or fine tunes your instinct, reflexes, and real time thinking skills. A form is a set number of movements/techniques that are already arranged in a set UNCHANGABLE sequence. So one must fit into the form, the form will not adjust for the person. The same is not true for drills. A drill can be changed to fit the person. <> Jye, I like your email address. Anyway, I think we are down to the potatoe potato end of this thread but I will add a few closing concepts and leave it there, giving thanks for the exchange of knowledge. 1. Good analogy with points of story and whole story. I guess the Iaido folks write some really terse one paragraph stories. The story of Ippon Mae I see Dick. I draw my sword cutting off Dick's head in one fluid motion. To ease his pain I cleave the dying headless body from shoulder to hip. With dignity, I sling Dick's cartlidge, tendons, flesh and blood from my sword. In a respectful manner I put away my tool. 2. Using the Iaido example again, you are correct nothing in my motion changes, but the application is changed by changing the "B" person's response. Another griot tells Ippon Mae I see Jane. Jane saw me behead Dick. I draw my sword and Jane moves her head out of the way drawing her sword. Jane seeking revenge tries to cleave me from shoulder to hip, BUT I parry with the side of my blade leading to my overhand grip and cleave Jane from shoulder to hip. With dignity, I sling Jane's cartlidge, tendons, flesh and blood from my sword. In a respectful manner I put away my tool. 3. I understand that the Sho Rin Ryu folks and there masters did have whole stories hidden in hyung/kata, but I'm not sure if the modified nationalized, rearranged stories kept all the feeling and meaning. A modern day example would be, I took my son to see Cat in The Hat with Mike Myers, same characters (plus a few), some threads from the origional plot, truly funny, but not the same as what Dr. Suess intended. Interestingly, like many nationalized or marketed McDojangs way more money for his widow than the good doctor ever dreamed of making...but that's another thread. 4. Subtle semantic here, but a drill/mini story does not work either if the fundamental elements are changed. Take downward wrist lock (#3 I think). Missing any of a number of subtle subplots of the story will lead to not skeletly locking the opponent, leading to trying to muscle your way through the story which may or may not work, but is wrong. Now on the other hand as Dr. Tsao and the other Lady instructor at GM West's seminar pointed out, if you are say 5'-3" and 120# you might alter the inflection in the way you tell the story to take advantage of the fact that your lower legs where bioengeneered to carring an extra 30 pounds of water around for 9 months, but your upper body was not pre-engineered for totting bear kegs and doing pushups. 5. OK I really got wound up on what was supposed to be the end of a thread, but I think you can see that the Korean's changed (and spun) the story of Sho Rin Ryu to fit their body type (and instructor preference) so forms can be changed to fit the person, similar to the way a min-story/drill is changed to meet the body type. To sum it all up we really agree here. A form is a longer story made up of sentences (drills/bunkai) in a logical sequence. Great thread. Train with jung do in your heart The rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:57:22 -0600 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] more round kick stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Nowiki, Your point is well taken. I guess I should not have made the instep round kick sound puny by comparing it to a slap. Properly executed I know full well (with bruises for proof) that the instep is a powerful weapon, not to be taken lightly. My contention was, at least for myself, the ball of the foot is the more powerful striking tool. I have broken 3 & 4 boards with a ball of foot round kick, but would never attempt that many boards with the instep. And you are very correct in your conclusions about footwear. What is on your foot certainly influences the kick you might execute. I do have to, respectfully, disagree with Master Farral on the perpendicularness (new word, just invented today) of the foot during a ball of foot round house kick. I can't see the mechanics of pointing the foot as if standing tip toe to deliver this kick. I pull my toes back towards my shin, and the foot is perpendicular to the leg when I deliver this kick. I guess we need to compare notes in meat space sometime, because I am probably not understanding what you are saying. With all due respect, dave weller On Tuesday, December 9, 2003, at 05:01 AM, John Nowicki wrote: > Subject: [The_Dojang] Round Kick Strike Pont > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Hello everybody I am a longtime lurker who has finally been motivated > to > submit. > Mr. Weller had said the instep round kick was like slapping with an > open > palm. I definitely disagree with this. The instep is a hard striking > point > just as the ball of the foot is. My instructor has taught me to > strike with > a specific part of the instep (approximately 1 inch by 3 inches) and > never > with the large area of the top of the foot. He has also taught me how > to > strike with the ball, but informed me that since I practice daily with > the > instep I will instinctively react with an instep roundkick as opposed > to the > ball in a street situation. I am confident in the ability to damage > ones > ribs, blow out a knee, dislocate a jaw, etc. with this srike point. > You can > condition this strike point in the same fashion you would condition > others. > I have sparred with people who use this kick as a slap, and this kick > usually generates more noise than a noticeable impact required for a > point. > When considering the issue of practicality one must consider the > style of > shoes they wear day to day. I agree strongly that those who wear work > boots > should be in the habit of using the ball. This is in the same fashion > that > military people are taught kicks with the toe becuase of the combat > boots > they wear. I personally wear tennis shoes daily, and occasionally > dress > shoes. When I practice with my shoes on I find it more practical to > extend > the foot for the instep because there is little protection for the > toes and > the shoes do not allow me to pull my toes up. The shoe material also > creates a tiny bit of padding that might protect your foot. As far as > breaking goes I will break boards with either the ball or instep, > although > if I was to stray down the path of more difficult breaks (multiple > boards) I > would use my ball. > The choice one has to make, instep or ball, should include many > factors. > Are you in MA for self defense, sport, hobby, health, or whatever you > choose. If the answer is self defense you shoould consider what shoes > you > wear on a daily basis. There are definitely arguments for both points > (bad > pun) of this argument I just felt I should stick up for the instep. > > Always respectful, > > John M. Nowicki, 3rd Gup TKD --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Round house kick variations To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:31:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On the toes back, ball 'o the foot, roundhouse... That was the only roundhouse kick I was taught for the first N years. It wasn't until I switched from TSD to TKD/HKD that I also learned an instep roundhouse kick. For me, I have rather bad ankles from too many sprains playing basketball. The instep roundhouse seems to flow better, but always hurts my ankles when making hard contact on a body or a heavy bag. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 11:33:34 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Stepping in and Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Although Mr. Stovall has the mechanics quite nicely. IMHO we never step in and kick. Simply put, it's loading up and it telegraphs. Against somebody that moves well and doesn't move in a linear fasion, the second you step to kick you have lost the technique and you may as well regroup and try something else out. You'll never land it. Having said that, if you precipitate your attack with some other distraction, a jab etc. and the step is included in this initial attack, it can certainly work. But, most Muy Thai kickers don't do that. IMHO, it's a better kick to throw in close rather than at a distance, or when somebody steps back from an in-close range. Jeff In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > This is one reason why you "step-in" with the forward > leg when doing the Thai kick, as opposed to just picking up the back leg and > rotating on the forward leg. Big difference in the > mechanics. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 11:39:04 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Counters in One Step Sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you are bent over in an arm bar, why would your instructor reverse your balance, he would be giving you back your balance. Just feel like being an ass for some reason. I'm also a little kidding. However, that isn't Hapkido theory there. Jeff In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > You haven't lived until you go from bending over > from a really strong arm bar to seeing your elbow come up in the field > of vision with just enough time in your mind to say OMG (or oh SHEEZY) > before doing a textbook circle fall (airwheel), not knowing > it was > coming. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "joseph lumpkin" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:44:14 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hacked up from the depths of hell Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Members of the Dojang Digest: Karate for Christ has sent the following email blast out to our members. Out of 3000 members, we have an email list of 900. The email begs the question - when Hackworth defrauded a Christian group did he think we were going to be a push over? Not so! We have been on the phone with Mr Bae even before the seminar in Korea started. GOTCHA HACK! Grace and Peace to you all. This is a very important email blast, so please read it carefully. We have been defrauded and money has been stolen. As many of you know, several months ago (about a 10 months) we set out of make the in-house style of Karate for Christ a world player. It was determined that recognition in the Korea Hapkido Federation should be pursued. Contact was made via the web site www.koreahapkidofederation.com to a man named Richard Hackworth. Mr. Hackworth claimed to be the US rep for the KHF. He said he was a Christian and would help us process the paperwork correctly and see to it the papers were delivered to Korea. In short – He Did Not! Neither the money nor forms ever got to Korea. Instead, Mr. Hackworth took the money and issued meaningless documents. The documents actually were part of his own organization called the National Hapkido Association, which he claimed to be the US body for ranking of the KHF outside of Korea. This is not the case. If you have had any deals with this man, Richard Hackworth, the National Hapkido Association, or www.koreahapkidofederation.com you have not been dealing with a Korean based entity at all. Mister Hackworth is a legitimate 6th Dan through the KHF and does have his own style. The style, however, is not even recognized by the KHF. It is recognized only by his own organization of the NHA. The real Korea Hapkido Federation website is http://hapkidokorea.org There, you will find an explanation posted today about the fraud. It does not mention names so I thought it best if I did to protect the membership. I sent out a plea for help to correct the lack of international recognition of Shinsei while we continued to contact Korea. Headmaster Ian Cyrus stepped up to the plate. He had received the 6 hr. tape overview of the system some months prior. Master Cyrus is an 8th Dan directly under the founder of Hapkido, Ji Han Jae and a 9th Dan and head of ChoSonDo. Master Cyrus, along with his organization ChoSonDo are part of the Kido Hae and the World Kido Federation. Master Cyrus has recognized Shinsei Hapikdo. In the pursuit of what is right, the KHF is attempting to correct some of the fraud. It can not correct all of it since there are those who were sold rank or recognition that did not follow the standards of the KHF. However Shinsei is going to be accepted by the KHF. Dr. Covington has been on the phone Directly to Master Bae (thank God for his abilities in Korean). The following are the letter between Bae and Covington. >From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: yesB279@hotmail.com >Subject: KHF >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:22:58 -0800 (PST) > >Sir, > >I spoke with you on the phone. You said you would email me with the >information I requested. Are we a recognized Kwan by the KHF and if so, >when are we receiving the rank certificates, school charters, membership >certificates, etc. that Richard Hackworth "SAID" he would get. The papers >he gave us are not KHF papers, like we paid for, and my 7th Dan Certificate >has no KHF logo, no Oh, Se Lim signature, etc. > >We need info. ASAP. As the Largest Christian martial arts program in the >World, we cannot afford to be telling people things that are not true. Sung Bae wrote: Dear Dr.Daryl Covington, I am very sorry for late reply. Please pardon me. Of course I remember you. And when you came to the last event in Ocoee, we had decided to accept your Kwan as a KHF member. In fact, I have waited your application. Yet no message have received. And as for your Dan rank and other masters, we have no information and not been reported from any body. We just noticed that you were going to join us. I'm very sorry to confirm this. Master Hackworth is just one of our masters. He could do some process for you to contact the KHF. However, we have not informed anything from him about you. Just we met there in Florida. l hope to know what I can do for you now. Sincerely yours, Sung-Book Bae Director, the KHF In Short, members: Karate for Christ and Shinsei Hapkido will have nothing to do with the following Hackworth companies: The National Hapkido Association Haemookwon Hapkido Martial arts Radio Network Legacy Belts of Texas. We have asked to be taken off of all lists and programs. However, after sending many emails we have received no reply from anyone as of yet. Here is the end of the story – What Hackworth meant for evil, God turned to the Good. Shinsei Hapkido will be a member of the KHF and Hackworth’s kwon is not and will not. Our board is now established under several honorable men. We are now members of ChoSonDo and are part of a family that trains directly with the founder of Hapkido than ever before. We are now listed as a recognized Jujitsu Org and member of the United States Jujitsu Federation (see the RJJOs for the state of Alabama). We are supported by Kang Rhee and Erle Montague also. We will seek no further credentials. By God’s grace, and not by any insight of mine -It Is done. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On a personal note to Ray: Needless to say, yet I will say it anyway - You were correct in your warnings about Mr Hackworth. It is the nature of our organization to move slowly and carefully in making judgements. This time it simply cost us that much more. With the confirmation of all we thought from the mouth of Master Bae, we can now speak out freely about Mr. Hackworth. With the news about Shinsei becoming part of the KHF we can put this issue to rest. The only question not answered directly by Master Bae was how much will it cost and will the money be taken out of Mr Hackworths hide. Please keep in touch. Ian Cyrus speaks highly of you - Joseph Joseph Lumpkin President of Karate for Christ author of the book Mystical Christianity www.1stbooks.com/bookview/14737 and Encounter the Warrior's Heart www.1stbooks.com/bookview/18526 _________________________________________________________________ Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:51:25 -0800 (PST) From: Bobby Whittemore To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] re: meaning of Bassai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings George and Bernard, >From what I have been able to gather, Bassai has one meaning, and Pal Che has another. George, you are probably entirely correct in your definition of Pal Che. One reference defines Pal as Best, Choice, Fast; and Che as Collection. My confusion stems from using the same definition for Bassai. Bassai is commonly written using the kanji Batsu and Sai. Batsu is defined as pull out, extract, remove, surpass, outdistance. Sai is defined as close, shut, lock, cover, obstruct. Thus, "removing an obstacle", or "extracting from a fortress" might be good translations for Bassai. Travis Cottreau has a definintion for Bassai in his article: http://www.chitoryu.ca/cottreau/kata.html Joe Swift cites Akio Kinjo as giving a different possible meaning for Bassai - Leopard/Lion in this article: http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/roots_shotokan_2.html George, if you do get a chance to inquire about the meanings and history of this form, I would really appreciate your passing along the information. Sincerely, Bobby Richmond, Virginia, USA George Peters wrote: >(Bassai or Pal Che mean "collection of the best") __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest