Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:38:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #563 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: The Last Samurai (Ray Terry) 2. Re: Jackson event (Frank Clay) 3. Jackson Masters (michael tomlinson) 4. Holcombe Thomas (J.R. West) 5. The value of rank (Rudy Timmerman) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Then_what_are_we_paying_for=3F=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Re: Xtreme Martial Arts (webmasterJoe@estradatkd.com) 8. Orphaned Dans (Charles Richards) 9. RE: Re: Then what are we paying for?? (John Johnson) 10. Not getting it (Ray Terry) 11. genuine school? (Eddie Urbistondo) 12. fees and value again (Charles Richards) 13. Re: genuine school? (Dante James) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The Last Samurai To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:28:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Rev. Kensho Furuya wrote the following: > > It is totally bogus and inaccurate in the movie, it would be ludicrous > it even begin to describe how inaccurate the movie is in almost every > way and aspect. It is all Hollywood fantasy and schlock commercialism, > please don't even think it is close to how Japan was. . . . . Would be nice if this fellow would actually take the time to back up his views with some datapoints. fwiw, the History Channel did a "History vs. Hollywood" show on the movie. Their main points there that (1) Japan would have gone to Germany or France for military advice during this timeframe, not the USA and (2) the Samurai were not "the good guys" during this period of history. i.e. they wanted to continue Japan's class society where they were able to behave pretty much as they wished. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:52:58 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Jackson event Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Unfortunately, I will be unable to attend this event this year. As many of you know, my better half is pregnant, and I have moral issues leaving her to her own devices. That being said, I should like to attend the following year, but may go to either Korea or Malaysia, so we will have to see how things turn out. Grandmaster Pak has also asked me to go to Korea with him. To my seniors, I sincerely thank you for your support. Master West, your words echo in my ears as words my old instructors had spoken before being bitten by the money bug... that was how I ended up in Hackworth's organization in the first place. I did not know I was jumping into the fire. I admit, I was devastated and blamed KMA for his actions. Then I reflected not only on your words but words spoken to me by Masters such as Ray Terry, Pak, Dr. Lim, Rudy Timmerman and the like, and realized that not only did you speak the true, but you reminded me of something that I had known, but forgotten. There are Hubehnim who depend on me, and for me to desert those people would be more unethical than what has transpired in Florida. Some may be able to routinely violate trust, but I cannot. Once again, thank you all. Now it is time to move forward. Let us fix the black eye we now have, and do the best we can to educate the public. In the end, it is all any of us can really do. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:08:30 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am on the tarmac and ready to go to Jackson this next event and I am looking forward to meeting all of you on the digest and getting some good ole Hapkido sweating in... see you then.. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J.R. West" To: Cc: "Wayne Watkins" , "Harold Whalen" Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:21:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Holcombe Thomas Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am proud to announce that Mr. Holcombe Thomas, KHF 7th dan, has graciously accepted my invitation to teach at the 20th International Hapkido Seminar and goat-roping.........J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:25:07 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The value of rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JR writes: > whoever these "orphaned" people go to for their affiliation, perhaps > the next group will > weigh more carefully who they accept... Good points JR:) The lack of scrutiny has come to haunt a number of organizations, and unfortunately this whole mess has seriously diminished the value even non martial art folks have for a black belt these days. I think we, all of us, have some serious rebuilding to do in order to regain the respect that used to go along with the belt. While I understand not all arts/sports take the same amount of time between rank advancement, some folks have gone way overboard in awarding/accepting advancements. Perhaps you and I were slow learners JR:) In any case, I strongly suggest that folks who ARE orphaned come to Jackson next March. There you will see a refreshing sight... different martial artists (many belonging to different organizations) training hard for the sake of training. Low and behold, no one will pressure you to join an org. or "purchase" another rank, and you won't even have to buy a new uniform to be recognized for what you have legitimately earned. If the Jackson event is a bit out of your way, or if the timing is not right for you, there are a number of similar seminars (albeit a bit smaller) that are presented by USKMAF and other decent organizations. You are also most welcome to check out the NKMAA seminars that were recently listed on the DD. There you will find many of the same people, because there is a strong bond of sincere friendship between us. We may not be in the same league as some of the larger Korean organizations, but perhaps you'll find that Master Cyrus had a valid point when he suggested that there are alternatives worth checking out. Come out and train. You'll love it! Sincerely, Rudy W. Timmerman, Chief Master National Korean Martial Arts Association --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:39:39 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Then_what_are_we_paying_for=3F=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I have been reading many of the observations and opinions about what is transpiring with the KHF. Coming on the heels of what has happened with our TKD cousins' organizations maybe its time to take another look at an old question of mine. Just what is it that these organizations are doing for us? 1.) I have just gotten word that GM Myung's diabetes will keep him from making a trip out to the Chicago area this Spring. In fact, I understand that he will not be making ANY seminars this coming year (2004). By my tally this is the third year in a row that GM Myung will not be making a seminar tour. Add to this the difficulty in getting him to return faxes and telephone calls. 2.) John has reported that the KHF operates out of a small office with a staff of five--- and your point is what? Seems to me that a small office and a small staff should make it pretty easy to stay on top of things. How many letters have I sent to the KHF and gotten no response? How long does it take five people to make a decision about a US rep? How long does it take five people to organize a remedial program to fix issues raised by Frank, Hal, Fabian et al over the last year? 3.) Julian says that the Korea KIDO Assn won't be up and running again for a little while ("2006"). What are members of the World KIDO Federation suppose to do about their status with the KKA until then? And while we are at it how long are we suppose to hold our breath until the World KIDO Federation deems it advisable to get back in the game? Apologizing in advance to any who might find what I am about to say as disrespectful or rude, just maybe our Korean friends with the grandiose view of themselves need to humble themselves a bit and take a page from the way that JR and Rudy do business over here. a.) Communications are responded to in a timely fashion, including phone calls, e-mails and faxes. b.) Seminars, workshops and classes are available on a regular basis with referrals made to appropriate resources. c.) I have not ever heard of misconduct on the part of a NKMAA or USKMAF member but I would find it VERY unusual if it would take a year or better for JR or Rudy to get around to addressing issues. Just can't see it happening. In short somebody needs to tell this Koreans that they can't run an authentic "world", "international" or "global" effort as though it were a lemonade stand. The KMA practitioner of today is not the fawning, easily intimidated post-adolescent of a couple of decade ago. Speaking for myself I am an adult practitioner and I thoroughly expect adult treatment and respect, adult services and adult considerations to my needs. Now get off your butts and deliver! In closing I extend my most sincere thanks to Julian for his kind offer to provide services to the disenfranchized here in the US. I would also ask that he and others allow us to clean our house for ourselves for the time being. There seems to be a general consensus that Hal is the person to do the job and the US KHF practitioners may need to turn-up the heat on our Korean service providers. We are already overdue for an announcement of the US rep which we were told would be December 6th. (Lets get off the dime, folks!). I suggest that 30 days is more than long enough to get a new rep/director in place. In the meantime I see no problem with Hal--- who IS the ranking KHF person getting started on a testing and assessment schedule to get the people impacted appropriate standing with the KHF. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:38:52 -0500 From: webmasterJoe@estradatkd.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Xtreme Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone, I have been interested in XMA for some time now. I understand what most of you are saying in reference to XMA and how flips and tricks and the constant screaming would do little if anything to defend in a real street confrontation. I do agree with this to a degree, however, do I think that people shouldn't practice and even compete with XMA techniques? No. Consider this, If we say that XMA shouldn't be practiced because of it's unrealistic theme and farfetched techniques, then what about the many martial arts consisting of weapons? Certainly we wouldn't walk down the street with a sword or a bo staff in hand for protection, so does that mean that martial art systems such as Haidong Gumdo or others that use ancient weapons should stop being practiced? There are many different paths we can take in the martial arts, whether it be self-defense (real-life senarios), or ancient weapons or open hand or XMA, the possibilities are endless. To say that XMA gives the wrong image to all non martial artists would be false in my opinion. Sure, it gives the wrong impression to those interested in self defense like hapkido or jiujitsu, and other more realistic arts, but what about others? What about people who want flips and flash and techniques that 'wow' people? For the most part, people don't learn these kind of things so they can use them on the street, it's purely for show and people know that. If someone sees the amazing flips etc. that go with XMA and it sparks an interest in them to learn martial arts, then I feel that XMA is a success. The same goes for self-defense too, if a person sees joint manipulation and take down techniques and they say 'hey, that looks pretty interesting, I want to try that...', then I feel that it has achieved something great. Sincerely, Joe Giarratano TaeKwonDo, Haidong Gumdo, XMA practioner --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:05:43 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Orphaned Dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> If there is a high point to all of this, it is that whoever these "orphaned" people go to for their affiliation, perhaps the next group will weigh more carefully who they accept, offer rank to and stand behind them saying "this person is what our organization is all about at "X" dan, and is representative of what I was at that same place in my training.  If not, perhaps a reevaluation of requirements and practices is in order. <> As a self-orphaned school owner, let's just say I was very critical of which camp fire to bring my marshmallows to. If folks like GM West and Master Mchenry consider me to be an "X" dan, then I am honored, humbled and inspiried with a sense of duty to meet that expectation as a way of life. What we learn becomes as important is how our students frame what "X" dan means, and set their goals accordinly. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Then what are we paying for?? Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:28:50 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I will respond only to what you brought up about my last message. The fact is that a only few people work in the KHF administrative office and they have been bombarded with emails and letters from people all over the world regarding Hackworth and other official business. Therefore, they deal with the emails as quickly as they can. There is not a staff of all-knowing people who can answer every question immediately. In fact, many times the questions are new and require thought and consideration before action is taken. Decisions regarding KHF policy, however, must be dealt with committees and high ranking and influential members. The KHF is not run like a business. It is run based on a martial art hierarchy. Yes, there are many, many problems which we would gripe about until the cows come home, but this is way it is. As I have stated before, decisions will come slowly, but they will come and some have been made already. Also, there is nothing remedial about this process. There are numerous individuals who influence what is occurring. Just to give you an idea, last weekend I attended the KHF "The Hapkido Martial Artists' Day 2003", where nearly 80 masters attended from all over Korea. These were the most influential people in the KHF. Yet, even my instructor, who holds a 7th dan, was not invited. The only way I was allowed to attend was because of the my involvement with the IT Team. In essence, all I am trying to say is that there is a lot more going into these decisions than just a couple people unable to make up their minds. I don't know the full story, but I do know that there are enough complications to make my head spin. Regarding yor comments on the nomination of the US representative. I believe there was a plan to announce the US rep at the Dec. 6 event, but that changed because of several factors. Therefore, the KHF has had to rethink how to handle the situation while keeping in mind everything I just said above. I hope this helps address your concerns. Sincerely, John A. Johnson _________________________________________________________________ Don’t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the holidays. Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:59:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Not getting it Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 2.) John has reported that the KHF operates out of a small office with a > staff of five--- and your point is what? Seems to me that a small office > and a small staff should make it pretty easy to stay on top of things. Sorry, no. I, too, have visited the KHF office. A small staff means there are very few resources to deal with umpteen different countries around the world. You continue to harp on this issue, along with the WKF issue. There is no smoke here, thus no fire. The KHF cannot keep on top of everything and WKF certs are pretty much worthless. How that could surprise anyone is beyond me... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:05:59 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] genuine school? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I just recently joined a new Taekwondo school in my area. This school is a franchise...has other schools just like all over the U.S. It is not a bad school. I am just concerned about the price and whether it is a "cookie cutter" school or a genuine TKD school." Sounds like an ATA (American Taekwondo Association) school. You're better off training by yourself. They are Masters at the business side, but in my opinion, white belts at the art side. My nephew used to belong to one in South Florida, it was pathetic. Kids wearing black belts that could not perform a correct roundhouse kick without losing balance and falling down. I told my family that I would rather my nephew not train than attend that school. From the 15 or so ATA schools I have seen throughout the U.S., the quality is consistently bad. Master Eddie Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:24:25 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] fees and value again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I notice that they only use sparring gear by Macho only. If you don't have the Macho sparring gear, then you have to purchase it.You cannot use gear that you already have that is not by Macho.(The whole set is $150 for females and $161 for males.) You also have to buy a re- breakable board ($42) and manuals in order to study and turn in a short written exam before testing ($30). Buying video tapes to practice forms are optional. Each student must have his/her own kicking pad ($20). His black belt students are ok. they can spar pretty good. I am just checking the school out, but I need some opinions about this b/c I have a strong desire to learn but I am short on money. I have sparring gear already (not made by Macho).I have spent a few years at another TKD school learning forms without a manuel and I am use to breaking real boards and you can either purchase your own sparring gear or use the gear provided by the school. Is this new TKD school worth it compared to the school I use to go to for training? The instructor is nice. He does his job very well. He has shown me some techniques, but I don't feel his strong desire/spirit towards TKD. I have been at the school for a short time. He does not know me very well. So maybe-I should give it some more time before making a decision as to whether or not I should sign a contract with him. Is it natural for students to feel an instructor's desire and love for the martial arts? <> Dear L.L. I will try to give you one side of a coin. Yes it is natural for students to perceive an instructor's desire and love for the martial arts. Absent that, I'd say the above description is a clasic McDojang. All the issues listed above are indeed ways to "make money" and maximize selling to your easiest customers, existing customers. Many would argue that all those things help the student become a better player. I think most people that make blackbelt own almost all those items and/or want them and have worn out at least one pair of sparring gear so. If it helps, add up the contract price and all the required merchandise and come up with an "adjusted" annual cost to participate and if the instructor/school would add that much value in your opinion, then join, if not, then your opinion is the best opinion of a good deal, a fair deal, or a rip-off. FWIW, the martial arts industry is way behind the curve on this aspect of selling. Picture having to buy an entire new uniform, only from the instructor every time you tested. Add to that mandatory demonstrations every quarter that you must buy another uniform only from the instructor to attend. And then a written policy that you must buy all props used in class from the studio pro-shop. Sound extreme, it's the norm for dance studios around the USA with a different uniform for each class and mandatory recitals with yet another outfit to buy...and their tuition is still 50% higher than most martial arts classes.... Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Dante James" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] genuine school? Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:07:28 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings to the members of this wonderful board. I have been a reader for quite a while and while I have learned a great deal regarding KMA, I have never been moved to respond. This post has so moved me so please forgive its length. As a 25 year member of the ATA, and continuing student of martial arts (I won't condescend to recite my martial arts resume', if you have an interest please feel to visit the website of my dojang), I felt the need to defend, not necessarily the ATA , but the ATA instructors like myself who do exist and who are constantly maligned on various discussion boards. I don't currently run a commercial school although I did for almost 10 years. I currently teach a club. I have never had a 5 year old Black Belt and never will. I will never have a 3rd Degree who is in the 6th Grade. I don't requre folks to purchase the items mentioned in the original post. I expect the most of my students, mentally, physically and in the spirit of the martial arts. They consistently impress not only me, but the many TKD and non-TKD people with whom I associate and often train with. Are their school owners within the ATA whose method of teaching and awarding belts disgusts me...Absolutely. Are their also excellent technicians, martial artists and those who promote a sincere belief in the value of teaching with integrity, honor and the concept that the journey is the true destination...Absolutely. I can't and won't defend some of the ATA's policies. In fact, I recently had a discussion of this type with Grandmaster Lee's Chief of Staff. My bluntness has kept me on the fringe for many years. However, I would appreciate some understanding that not everyone follows the same path, even within the same organization. I suggest that the recent issues within the KHF that I have read about would support that belief. I look forward to continuing to learn, and hope to meet many of you in Jackson in March. My reservations are confirmed. Peace and Blessings. Dante Dante J. James, Esq. www.denverata.com A True Teacher is Not the One with the Most Knowledge, But the One Who Causes Others to Have the Knowledge. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:05 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] genuine school? > "I just recently joined a new Taekwondo school in my area. This school is > a franchise...has other schools just like all over the U.S. It is not a > bad school. I am just concerned about the price and whether it is a > "cookie cutter" school or a genuine TKD school." > > Sounds like an ATA (American Taekwondo Association) school. You're better off > training by yourself. They are Masters at the business side, but in my > opinion, white belts at the art side. My nephew used to belong to one in > South Florida, it was pathetic. Kids wearing black belts that could not > perform a correct roundhouse kick without losing balance and falling down. I > told my family that I would rather my nephew not train than attend that > school. From the 15 or so ATA schools I have seen throughout the U.S., the > quality is consistently bad. Master Eddie Urbistondo > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest