Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:49:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #565 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. feedback to TKD times (Ray Terry) 2. KHF/NHA (Dr. Daryl Covington) 3. Journal of Asian Martial Arts (Burdick, Dakin R) 4. More on KHF (ABurrese@aol.com) 5. RE: The Last Samurai (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 6. Re: RE: The Last Samurai (Ray Terry) 7. re: genuine school? (Stovall, Craig) 8. RE: The Last Samurai (tim walker) 9. last samurai opinion (michael tomlinson) 10. TKD/FMA in Arizona (Michael Szymanski) 11. Re: re: genuine school? (Dante James) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:09:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] feedback to TKD times Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > It seems we have been used for the benefit of the NHA yet again. It was > brought to my attention yesterday that an article in the TKD Times has me > listed as the NHA rep for the state of LA. I am sure Mr Pointer has found a > way to work all of this out since I live in the middle of the state of AL. > Furthermore, I must assume that there is something about the word NO that > the NHA doesn't understand, since we have broken relations with them over > the issues of fraud and have made it clear we want nothing more to do with > them until Hackworth and the NHA makes good on money taken, false rank, > bogus claims, broken promises...ad infinitum. TKD Times is apparently interested in hearing from those with personal experiences to share wrt Mr. Hackworth. You might want to contact Ms. Carol Hart at TKD Times to tell her whatever you have to tell her... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:27:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KHF/NHA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net After Speaking with Master Bae and the KHF office directly via phone, and email, I found that Hackworth was NOT the U.S. Rep. he claims to be, nor has he been. According to the KHF office, the NHA is NOT the governing body for Hapkido outside of Korea, as Hackworth states. This being said, Joseph Lumpkin and I have broken ties with Hackworth completely. The KHF office said they would recognize the Shinsei Kwan, had viewed our abilities, etc., but never received papers. That is because Hackworth NEVER sent them, yet generated KHF certificates and presented them to us. Ray has seen the Bogus papers personally, as has Master West, and can testify to their fakeness. After all of this, He had the audacity to put in TKD times that I was the NHA state rep for Mississippi. This was in the last issue also. Joseph Lumpkin is listed as the state rep for Louisianna. Funny, he doesn't even live in LA, but rather AL. I was asked to compose this post on Joseph Lumpkin's behalf, as well as mine, to let the digest readers and the KMA community know that we had NOTHING to do with that article. It seems they are promoting how close they are to Karate for Christ International. This post is to say we have NEVER been given such papers of appointment, the were NOT presented to us as last months article said, and Richard Hackworth or the NHA has never been to my school, as pervious articles lead one to believe. We publically denounce any such office, or any such affiliaition. J.R., Perhaps you would like to serve as their Mississippi rep? ha ha. just kidding. Grace and Peace, Jesus is the reason for the season daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:33:02 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: , Subject: [The_Dojang] Journal of Asian Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Journal comes out four times per year Martin. I've forwarded your email to Michael DeMarco, who edits the Journal. Watch for an article by me and a few other guys next year on Zurkhaneh (Persian bodybuilding and wrestling). Take care, Dakin d akinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:42:43 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] More on KHF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net After reading the post by Mr. Bae on the KHF site, the Oct. event in Florida makes more sense. I had discussed this with Yi-saeng at the time people were not happy with how things went, but did not post because they were just our thoughts. Mr. Bae’s post reveals that Yi-saeng and I were pretty much on target with what we were thinking at the time, so I will share it now to help those that were wondering better understand maybe what happened. At the time, Yi-saeng and I wondered about the claims that GM Oh, Se-lim would be teaching a seminar. That is not really something the President of the organization would do in Korea. Yes, I understand that presidents of organizations here in the US such as GM Ji, Han-jae teach seminars, but they are doing so because it is the American way. In Korea, they don’t have seminars like we do here, it is different. So there obviously was a serious communication breakdown between those in Korea who came over, and the host of the event here in America. Anyway, Yi-saeng told me at the time that in Korea, President Oh, Se-lim would not teach, but rather be there and say a few opening or closing remarks, etc. Oversee the test and things like that. Just as he did. Now we find out that those that came over from Korea came over to conduct a test and to meet with people, they never agreed to conduct a training seminar. This was apparently told to the host, but there must have been a break down in communication, because that is not what he advertised. Those that may be upset for the fees paid and for what happened have one person to blame. I do believe that those that came from Korea had no intention of being disrespectful to those at the event, but they too we misled. Mr. Bae’s post also clarified something else that Yi-saeng and I discussed a few times. The reason the person in Florida was able to get away with everything he was posting on the web sites and saying to people was that no one in Korea was really concerned with America. This is not uncommon either. It is a small office and run by a few individuals, with input from many other masters around the country. (a very small country by the way – which I say just to reflect logistics and nothing more) There was not an interest in what was happening in America, and they were not checking English websites to see who was doing what in America. So, it was very easy to make claims that were not necessarily true. I could have started calling myself a US rep for the KHF and made money selling fake certificates. I would not do that, and have always been honest with my students and everyone else about my rank and connections in Korea and that I would not give dan rank, but would help students of mine when they got to that level go through proper channels to get the rank. It was just recently that the KHF did look at being more active in America, and the were convinced by someone that he had more influence and such that he really had, and because he did hold legitimate rank from the KHF, they believed him. They did not know of all the other things going on. They are now just realizing what they got themselves into. And yes, things are different in Korea. We are looking at these circumstances from an American point of view, because we are Americans and that’s how we look at things. With the help of my wife, my studies and my time in Asia, I try to step out of my American view and look at it from a Korean point of view, and when I do so, I see the differences. (Probably not all of them, since I am still an American, but quite a few since I try and understand the Korean culture through my studies and wife) We must all realize that an organization is only as good as the members. That is with anything, not just our martial art organizations. And affiliation with an organization means as much as you make it. Many people like to identify themselves through an organization. I’m a Republican. I’m a Democrat. I’m a Toastmaster. And so on. Some in the martial arts like to identify themselves by an organization. Some like to build their self-esteem by the organizations they affiliate with and the positions they hold. This is okay if done honestly and with integrity. But when someone has to put others down to make themselves feel more important, or when someone’s entire self-worth is based on an organization or position held, I would suggest that that person needs to reconsider what is really important in life. The KHF has some very good people involved with the organization, and I believe they will strive to make the organization one to be respected and an organization with integrity. Obviously there can always be people that will stray or take advantage of things such as has been brought to people’s attention with these recent events. When that happens, it will cause a stir and the organization will take a hit, like it has done now. But those good people in the organization will help it get through the problem and in the end things will get better for the rest. I believe this will happen now. It will take some work by those that will represent the KHF, but I believe they will help strengthen the Federation and the misdeeds of one will be just that. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: The Last Samurai Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:08:38 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So far it seem absolutely clear that Furuya Sensei does not believe anything in The Last Samurai was portrayed accurrately--village life, armor, uniforms, swords etc . . . --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: The Last Samurai To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:20:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > So far it seem absolutely clear that Furuya Sensei does not > believe anything in The Last Samurai was portrayed > accurrately--village life, armor, uniforms, swords etc . . . Or as clear as one can be without actually having viewed the movie... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:33:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: genuine school? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Just curious...I've heard that the ATA uses some pretty serious non-compete agreements. Isn't it true that signing a non-compete is one of the conditions of becoming black belt, or of becoming a certified instructor? The fact that their forms and materials are copyrighted is also a pretty steep legal and logistical barrier that has probably kept more than a few from breaking ranks and starting their own off-shoot of the ATA, yes? On the quality issue...for some reason I have always remained pretty tight-lipped about my opinions of the ATA even when heavily pressed by friends and associates. In reflection, this is odd since I'm not one to hold back an opinion. I guess I just try to keep them off my radar screen, and refuse to get into the eternal "you suck/we don't" line of debate that seems to rear its head whenever the ATA is brought up. I guess there are just too many other things that I love to debate/argue, and the ATA is spared the indignity of being cannon fodder for my smart-assed mouth. FWIW, I have worked with several ATA black belts that "jumped ship" and came over to the dark side for whatever reason. So, I do have some limited frame of reference in terms of what you have to bring to the table before they hang that black cloth around your waste. Let me just say this...when I hear other people bashing the ATA I'm reminded of the Chris Rock joke about O.J. Simpson murdering his wife. I don't necessarily agree with the bashing...but I understand why they do it. Different people train for different reasons, and I suppose the ATA fills some market need or else those schools wouldn't be full. From what I have seen, they don't address any of my needs. 'Nuff said. To Dante James...I guess I would suggest finding another organization that more closely fits your values and ideals when it comes to martial arts. Why remain at the fringe due to philosophical differences when there are countless martial artists and organizations out there that would accept you with open arms? I know you may have a lot of time invested in the ATA, but life is too short to try and paddle against the current of organizational culture. If they don't share your training culture and philosophy, why not find a place that does? Self-imposed cognitive dissonance is the worst. For what it's worth... Craig "Happily Independent" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:53:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: The Last Samurai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Repeat after me: IT'S-JUST-A-MOVIE. grounded, timo --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:24:05 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] last samurai opinion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read the post of the message by Mr. Furuya, excuse spelling,, the first paragraph he states that he hasn't seen the movie and then he writes several paragraphs explaining why it is fake and not realistic? Now I am no huge fan of any of this but it seems to me that BEFORE you form an educated opinion you have to ACTUALLY see the movie... I don't really get this? How can you criticize something that you haven't seen with your own two eyes... sounds like sour grapes to me,, go see the movie and then form your opinion,, until then,, as in the scientific world,, your analysis is totally invalid. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Browse styles for all ages, from the latest looks to cozy weekend wear at MSN Shopping. And check out the beauty products! http://shopping.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Szymanski To: Dojang List , Eskrima List Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD/FMA in Arizona Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I currently train in TKD & Eskrima(at the same school). I am moving to Mesa, AZ in February and would like to continue my training. Any suggestions on reputable schools or training partners? Any help would be appreciated. Mike --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dante James" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: genuine school? Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:32:03 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Stovall, Thank you for your thoughts. As regards the non-compete clauses, no they are not required for achieving Black Belt. I'm not sure what that would have to do with training. For Instructor certification, also not a requirement. It is, on some level, part of the license agreement only as it pertains to opening a school within a certain distance of another ATA school. This is and has been the subject of much difficulty at HQ and with some school owners who want it enforced, e.g., his school is going to be too close to mine, she is advertising in "my" area. It has proven difficult to enforce because there are differing methods for determining one's geographic area, e.g., population, square miles, etc. So, long answer to a short question, it's not really an issue. The form question is a good one. Yes, the ATA has enforced its ownership of the SongAhm forms. If you leave, you can't use them for teaching. I do enjoy the forms. After having begun with the Chung Han forms (ITF) forms, I enjoy the more difficult aspect of the forms, with earlier and more difficult kicking and more difficult concepts. Do I stay because of the forms, in a word, no, although I have experience with other forms while many/most other ATA people who began after the SongAhm forms were introduced in 1983 do not. Quality-Yes there are 1st-5th Degrees who I think have no business with the rank they wear. (I'm a 5th so I won't speak on my seniors, many of whom are quite talented) I didn't give it to them, I can't take it away. I know what I do in my humble little dojang. It is a reason why I refused to test for higher rank for 10 years. I didn't feel the need to test and be in the same category with folks who had no business testing, let alone passing. I also understand the bashing, however those who do it with a broad brush do so from ignorance of the non-commercial, true believer who does exist in the organization. When I lived in Japan, Karateka I trained with would say that TKD "has no hand techniques, only kicking" until I made a point of beating them at their own game. Ignorance can be bliss, or dangerous. I give folks their choice, believe it or experience it. Why do I stay. It's becoming harder to answer the question. I have my needs met by doing what I do with the people I train with, ATA and non-ATA. That's why I'll be in Jackson with people who have impressed me just from reading this board. As Master West said, your organization is only as good as the worst member and if you are remembered by your worst Black Belt, what is that memory (paraphrasing, sorry). I try to add my little flavor as much as possible as I conduct seminars and regional Black Belt training. I was once called a Black Sheep of the ATA by one of my seniors. I told him that I've been Black a long time so it's not a problem...... thought I would end with a smile. Anyway, sorry for the length, but hopes that has given some insight. Dante J. James, Esq. dantejj@earthlink.net A true Teacher is not the One with the Most Knowledge, But the One Who causes Others to have the Knowledge. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 10:33 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] re: genuine school? > << passing of Eternal Grandmaster H.U. Lee, the organization remains focused on > its mission, no fragmentation, no spin offs.>>> > > > > Just curious...I've heard that the ATA uses some pretty serious non-compete > agreements. Isn't it true that signing a non-compete is one of the > conditions of becoming black belt, or of becoming a certified instructor? > The fact that their forms and materials are copyrighted is also a pretty > steep legal and logistical barrier that has probably kept more than a few > from breaking ranks and starting their own off-shoot of the ATA, yes? > > > > On the quality issue...for some reason I have always remained pretty > tight-lipped about my opinions of the ATA even when heavily pressed by > friends and associates. In reflection, this is odd since I'm not one to > hold back an opinion. I guess I just try to keep them off my radar screen, > and refuse to get into the eternal "you suck/we don't" line of debate that > seems to rear its head whenever the ATA is brought up. I guess there are > just too many other things that I love to debate/argue, and the ATA is > spared the indignity of being cannon fodder for my smart-assed mouth. FWIW, > I have worked with several ATA black belts that "jumped ship" and came over > to the dark side for whatever reason. So, I do have some limited frame of > reference in terms of what you have to bring to the table before they hang > that black cloth around your waste. > > > > Let me just say this...when I hear other people bashing the ATA I'm reminded > of the Chris Rock joke about O.J. Simpson murdering his wife. I don't > necessarily agree with the bashing...but I understand why they do it. > Different people train for different reasons, and I suppose the ATA fills > some market need or else those schools wouldn't be full. From what I have > seen, they don't address any of my needs. 'Nuff said. > > > > To Dante James...I guess I would suggest finding another organization that > more closely fits your values and ideals when it comes to martial arts. Why > remain at the fringe due to philosophical differences when there are > countless martial artists and organizations out there that would accept you > with open arms? I know you may have a lot of time invested in the ATA, but > life is too short to try and paddle against the current of organizational > culture. If they don't share your training culture and philosophy, why not > find a place that does? Self-imposed cognitive dissonance is the worst. > For what it's worth... > > > > Craig "Happily Independent" Stovall > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information > intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If > this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure > whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please > immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy > any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of > this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this > communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal > privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest