Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:52:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #568 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Goodwill Event (Charles Richards) 2. RE: Tournament help for Peter (Denise) 3. Drive for certification or recognition? (J.R. West) 4. RE: Furuya and the Last Samurai (Ali Alnasser) 5. Politics (Charles Richards) 6. RE: KHF and U.S. Involvement (ABurrese@aol.com) 7. Iaido vs. Haedong Gumdo ? (Ray Terry) 8. Tournament Organization -Byes for uneven matches (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 9. Re: KMA & mcdojang stuff (scottm@scubadiving.com) 10. KMA (David Weller) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:08:42 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Goodwill Event Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Peter, "Let's say we have eleven people competing in any given division. Who does the odd person fight? How to determine who fights who in the next round? Ack! Alos, What's some criteria for giving judges to judge open style forms on? " You can go to aautaekwondo.org and download the rule book which includes criteria for judging forms and somewhere in the sparring section is a bye sheet. Or try doing a search on National Blackbelt League and they have open tournament rules also and bye sheets. In general once I determine how many byes are awarded I determine them by chance (draw staws, etc.). Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Denise" To: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:43:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Tournament help for Peter Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Peter- I've had a fair amount of experience in managing tournament competition, so I'm hoping that this might be of help to you with your question on "byes" in a single-elimination tournament. The rule is that whatever number of competitors you start with, in the second round you must end up with a number divisible by 4. So, in the case of 11 competitors like you mentioned, 5 people get a "bye" and 6 people compete. This will leave you with 8 competitors in the second round. (Then to be fair you would have 2 of the "bye" people spar first in the second round, pairing the 3 who won in the first round with the 3 remaining "byes.") This, of course, doesn't apply with less than 4 competitors. But in the case of a larger division -- like 17 for example -- 15 people get "byes" and 2 spar in the first round -- leaving you with 16 competitors in the second round. If you would like, contact me offline and I'll send you a copy of a "bye" chart for up to 50 competitors. Hope this helps! Denise Lee intentlee@snet.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:42:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Drive for certification or recognition? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy Timmerman said this about certificates: "I see them as a token of appreciation for the many hours of studying that go into teaching/learning the required material to earn the certificate". Rudy my friend, this is WONDERFUL! Hey folks, go to your prospective organization, the one that you intend to be a member of, and JOIN, TRAIN and LEARN. Become part of the team. be part of the solution, not part of the problem, and if that organization offers you a certficate of rank after a reasonable period of time...GOOD FOR YOU. On the other hand, if you go to organization after organization looking for some group to immediately accept you as you are, take a payment and cut you a certificate, you are not only missing the boat, your in the water up to your ears! J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:57:35 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Furuya and the Last Samurai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At least Furuya Sensei has degrees in Asian studies from USC and Harvard University. I'm sure not many of us can say we have a degree in Asian studies. I am sure he did not watch those Ninja movies from the 80's when they first came out either. I remember too many people claiming they were real ninja's. Too each their own. However, I will be attending a open discussion study group this Friday at his dojo. The topic: "The Samurai-True & False." Ali Alnasser www.ushankido.org [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:02:08 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Politics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Danny and Bruce. "However, I have learned over time and through experience that if I am not happy with the status quo, then I should be examining myself instead of pointing fingers at others. I have found that if I am unhappy with a situation, the best way to resolve "my problem" is to take an action myself to change the situation. And in reality, your unhappiness is "your problem", just like my unhappiness is my problem. Now perhaps that unhappiness comes from someone else not fulfilling my expectations, but the only thing I have the power to change is my expectations. I know from a number of posts you seem very disapointed with GM Myung, the head of your org, not being able to come to your location. Seems to me that you have two courses of action to resolve the problem. You can go to him for your further training and testing, or you can find another org that will better meet your desires. The fact is that the only way you can influence change within an organization many times is by choosing to be more active and take on the responsibility to do the things that need doing, or conversly by leaving. Remember all martial arts are about self awareness and action, not talking." FWIW, Danny is walking his talk. We met about a year before I left our international organization. Although Danny was by far my senior we where both 3rd dans at the time and discussed our students goals and his and my roles as center judges at the upcomming Regional Tournament. I left with a feeling of "nice guy" seems like a "for-real" martial artist. Over the last few years we found each other again here on the DD and he has shared several good books with me, including buying some good deals at a used books store and hand delivering them to me in Atlanta when he has work related training here. I can say from experience that my choices in that org would have been to 1. Drop all my ideas about alternative cirriculum 2. Keep my mouth shut about enhancing existing standardized cirricula based on my taekwondo or hapkido background and interest in theoretical Jeet Kune Do. 3. Obtain training with the senior masters and grandmasters by going to them (which I did). 4. To make 4th Dan put in (historically) about 8-10 years as a 3rd dan and support EVERY regional and international event during that period as an instructor/official and as a dojang. 5. Find some contribution to the org/GM of time commitment that demonstrated my loyalty. I'm assuming from some of your (Bruce) previous posts that WHF meets your needs as far as cirriculum (both freedom and standardization), and the issue is training with the higher level masters. Here's the blunt truth. Those who have devoted their life to sharing martial arts can only survive if they are compensated some way for their time, and what is most efficient is to make $x per head-hour, so If I charge about $10 per class and have 5-12 students in each class, but could fit about 15 in my dojang. I should charge $50 to $150 for every hour I'm away from my family (teaching, coaching at tournaments, judging at tournaments or teaching a private lesson). Assuming those that are higher in rank than I have more to offer and even more commitments (student base) it just makes sense to "come to them." There is a rate that I could have GM West or GM Timmerman come to my school (and now a rate for away from home training with GM Timmerman) that compensates these gentlemen (and their tour group) for being away from the main dojang and home for X hours. One of the reasons I invite GM Hodder and/or Master McHenry to my seminar is selfishly to have them train me (which they gladly do while in town). Now both of them have volunteered to help me, but I fly them in, give them a comfortable futton and plenty of southern hospitality and food. Even with my hotel right now, it's just cheaper for me to go to Jackson than to "host" GM West, but other USKMAF schools do just that. So in summary, if you want to stay in the org. and fix it, you might start programing funds to see your GM twice a year at his dojang/seminars/spend a week in town and/or host him at your dojang for a weekend and squeeze some advanced training out of him. The other benefit to that is 90% of your unaswered email/letter questions could probably be discussed over the various meals and non-seminar times of such a visit. So getting back to Danny, he has 1. Worked his alternative cirriculum ideas around the standardized 2. Enhanced his students knowledge with his knowledge of other arts. 3. Obtained training with the senior masters and grandmasters by going to them I think he trains monthly with a 7th Dan in the same state about an hour or two away from him. 4. Made 4th Dan within the system 5. Contributed his time as a Regional Director for the international organization (Congrads Danny!) My point is he's an example of woking it out within and bettering the organization. What worked for me is 1. Review alternative cirriculum and be the final judge of "what's useful" for my Kwan. 2. Keep enhancing cirricula based on my taekwondo or hapkido background and interest in theoretical Jeet Kune Do. 3. Obtain training with the senior masters and grandmasters by going to them twice a year in Jackson and hosting them once a year at my Dojang. 4. Made 4th Dan in USKMAF and try to contribute back to the korean martial arts as an AAU Coach and Judge and hosting events under the USKMAF banner in addition to supporting USKMAF events. 5. Settled with a GM that still surprises me by answering the phone personally and taking time to help my students through helping me. His same structure allows me to have one to three day email feedback from other senior masters in the org, AND it's OK if I want to play in the AAU sandbox and/or attend/support NKMAA or other quality training opportunities. After looking at some of the same issues you post about I found something that works for me. I'll be the first to admit that you (Bruce) and Danny are stronger than I and can only hope that I will be part of GM West's sollutions and not future problems. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:06:56 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: KHF and U.S. Involvement Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff Wrote: >>> no one in Korea was really concerned with America >>Alain- >>I'm not a member of the KHF so perhaps it's none of my >>business. But as far >>as I'm concerned, the statement above says it all. >>Nuff Said! >>Jeff I do want to clarify that I was not saying that no one in Korea cared about what was going on in America in a bad way. But it is true, they were concerned with Korea and the organization there. America is a long ways off, and what we do over here was of little concern. Koreans certainly were not checking up on who or what was going on regarding martial arts here in America. (other than a few relationships and contacts, etc.) That is why it was not difficult for someone to make claims that may not have been forthright. This is not to say that the Korean officials of an organization don’t care about misuse of their name and organization. No one, regardless of nation or location, wants to see their name abused. It has only been recently that the officials of the KHF have thought about broadening the organization more overseas, which includes America. So now that there is more interest, I would suspect there may be more attention paid to what goes on. But in reality, it is still extremely difficult for a small number of people in one part of the world to keep tabs on people in other countries especially with language barriers and such. I think the attempts are starting, but it will take time. Unfortunately, it appears that much damage has already been done, and it may be more difficult for those people in the organization now to correct the misdeeds and gain trust again. But I believe it can, and will happen. It is so unfortunate and sad really that any of this occurred. One would think that in a field that is based on the code of honor among other virtues, that this kind of thing would not happen. If you look at the individual in the spotlight of much of this, his KHF website has the code of ethics that if we all followed none of this would happen. I find it extremely sad when his website states: • I will seek the best in all people and attempt to make them feel worthwhile. • I will maintain a positive mental attitude and convey it to everyone I meet. • I will refrain from making negative statements about anyone. Correct me if I am wrong, but the e-mails this person has sent out, the posts he has made, and the things I have heard him say on his radio show do not follow the above. Trying to follow the above myself, I will say no more, than I truly wish that none of this would have happened. One would hope that honor and integrity would stand above all and that situations such as this would never have occurred within the martial art community. When I read of the ancient Hwarang, Admiral Yi, Sun-shin, the Japanese texts such as the Hagakure, the Chinese texts, etc., I really try to apply the positive lessons, and try to teach those as well. If we all followed them, negative situations such as this would not arise. But alas, as humans we are flawed and egos, low self-esteem, money, greed and other negative forces cause people to do things that would be better off not done. It will be behind us soon, and we can go forward with lessons learned. I know for me, the entire situation has made me step back and look at myself. What things have I done that maybe did not follow the code I believe in. (this could be as simple as saying something negative about someone who calls my wife names, or letting someone’s negative comments interrupt my positive and constructive pursuits.) To bring this to a close, yes those in Korea were not paying much attention to those in America. But I think this may change some, and for the better. That is if the organization wants to continue growing to be international. But again, I quote the wise Mr. Miyagi, “Karate is in here (pointing to his heart), not here (pointing to his belt)” Warriorship is inside you, not hanging on the wall” Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:45:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Iaido vs. Haedong Gumdo ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net With all this chatter about to Samurai or not to Samurai... anyone familiar with Iaido as well as Haedong Gumdo that can briefly compare and contrast the two arts??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:52:45 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tournament Organization -Byes for uneven matches Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Peter, You asked about setting up competative groups in tournaments. I wasn't sure exactly what you were asking for. But if it is dealing with single eliminations and getting down to a quarter final with 4 people from which 4 matches will determin 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, then you use a bye system designed to take you to 4. In your example you have 11 people, or it could be an even number of competitors like 12 or 14. You need to get to 4, 8, 16 or 32 competitors after your first round. In your example with 11, you need to get to 8 people. So have the first round consist of 3 matches (6 people competing) plus 5 randomly chosen byes. A bye is counted as a win. This will give you 8 people in 4 matches with 4 winners in the next round. Then 2 matches, with winners fighting for 1st and 2nd, and losers fighting for 3rd. I am sure you can find a bye system schedule somewhere on the net along with a match record page. The confusing part is usually making sure you get to 4 winners for quarter finals and not 3, 6 or 7. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:53:45 -0500 (EST) From: scottm@scubadiving.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KMA & mcdojang stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net brian, i would have to say that the reason sport tkd seems to get bashed is the same reason folks bash other martial arts which tend to be sport-oriented: traditionalists think the sport aspect cheapens the martial art itself. as mr. terry put it some time ago(i'm paraphrasing here): sport is good & traditional is good--both have their place. it really depends on the student. i started out with sport tkd, & gravitated to hap ki do and kung-fu because the non-sport side appealed to me more. i agree with mr. terry in that both sides have their place & are needed to serve all types of students(heck, any quality martial arts training is good). but, someone running a sport-oriented school should be sure to make a distinction between what works in tournaments & what works on the street. scott --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:25:41 -0600 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KMA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 09:23 AM, Brian Beach wrote: > In light of the recent McDojang question - > > Why is it that TKD gets so much bashing? If it the sport nature of it, > why doesn't Judo suffer the same fate? If it is the commercial aspect - > you are paying to learn a set of skills what you do with them are up to > you. What is the harm in that? Everyone who takes piano lessons won't > be a concert pianist, why should everyone who takes martial arts be > expected to be some sort of NHB billy badass? > > Second Question - Why were you first attracted to the Korean Martial > Arts? (as opposed to Japanese, Chinese, Filipino etc.) > > Brian > Mr Beach, You're preaching to the choir brother! These touchy-feely Hapkido guys always like to take their problems out on us kickers... Go figure ??!!! My reason for studying a Korean Martial Art (WTF TKD) is simple. It was the only Martial Art in my little town. I was lucky enough to fall in with an old school type teacher (30+ years or experience) who I had known for years. I just never knew he taught martial arts. That's how "commercial" he is. He runs a small school, but with dedicated students, some who have been with him for 20+ years!! Although the curriculum is TKD we get doses of whatever Master Felke has learned in his own Martial arts journey. It's not all kicking in our school, and I am thankful for that. I'd love to learn Hapkido or some similar style but there just isn't a school close enough to make it realistic. I don't think I want to try for a "video black belt". So I'll stick with kicking and learn whatever my Master chooses to teach me. I'm just real sure I haven't seen the bottom of his bag of tricks yet, let alone master what I have already learned. Dave "not even a tiddly-wink badass" Weller --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest