Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:15:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #569 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Rank/Certification (Thomas Gordon) 2. Re: KMA (Stovall, Craig) 3. Re: Furuya and the Last Samurai (Jye nigma) 4. Re: Re: The Last Samurai (Barry Davis) (Jye nigma) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Something_to_think_about_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Haidong GumDo/Iaido (Frank Clay) 7. the last of the last furuya (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:21:03 -0600 (CST) From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank/Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fellow martial artists, I have found this conversation very intriguing both from an instructor’s perspective and a student’s. As an instructor looking at this, the reality is that a piece of nice card stock with my name and some rank doesn’t make me any more qualified. Nor does a hundred certificates saying I’m a xxxxx degree doesn’t make me anymore legitimate. Say I decide to test for my fifth degree in KKW, ITF, and ATA. At the end of the day, am I any more “fifth?” No, I’m just out about fifteen hundred dollars. Or am I? What about the advanced students looking for somewhere to train? Haven’t I just opened the door for many people to train at my dojang? Now there’s another argument about being dedicated to that many organizations that I won’t touch at this time – heck, I’m already long winded >From that point, as a student, it does make a lot of difference. Not a white belt student, I find many of them don’t understand ranks and such until they get about mid level. Then we “educate” them to the whole rank and certification process. Later, many of us gripe about the good education they seem to have gotten and now they are eager and border line rank hounds. Again, another discussion for another day. Baring the rank hounds, a “certified” instructor has someone to vouch for them. It’s a sense of comfort. In my day job, there is a professional licensing board that says I am legitimate. Do I need the professional licensing board to help me solve the daily problems I encounter in my career? No. Testing for my professional license was the hardest darn test I took my entire life. Passing it gave me a sense of confirmation and a means to prove (and advertise) to the world that I am genuine and valid. So, to me, from a student of martial arts, a certification tells my students (and possible future students) that I am the real deal and gives me a sense of personal validation. Getting a nod from someone with half a century in the martial arts is even more validating to both me and my students. Some people say rank is irrelevant and only for the egomaniacs. I disagree. Would I have bothered to align myself with someone if they advertised their grandmaster was a first degree....with 50+ years of experience? Not very likely. That eight, ninth, or tenth degree means they are tested and proven. Especially if they can point to a respected martial artist that tested them....you know, certified them. For me, advancing in certified ranking gives my students a way to progress. Through the certification, it opens the doors (for me and my students) to train with certain people that would not be accessible otherwise. It gives my students some sense of security knowing that someone has physically reviewed my material and gave their blessing. It gives me a sense of accomplishment (and I have a very long story of the BS I went through to get where I am). And with higher ranking, it gives me the opportunity to help the orphaned higher rank black belts. Lastly, I see millionaires and billionaires telling us that money isn’t everything. Well, they should know, after all, they have it. And, in that vain of the argument, I suppose a $500 to a working stiff like me is not nearly as important to Bill Gates. There’s a similar analogy with rank. With respect, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:26:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KMA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> OK, long post...sorry. I could write volumes, but here's my top reasons as to why TKD gets laughed at. Keep in mind I've been involved with TKD as well as other martial arts, so I've been privy to some of the mindsets that take shots at TKD. 1. It's viewed as a "kid thing" in some corners...probably because a lot of dojangs are full of nothing but kids (duh). Of course, this is by design since they've got all the energy and their parents have all the money. Most commercially viable schools have to attract a large child contingent in order to generate huge revenue, but running your school as a glorified daycare/afterschool program is not going to do much for TKD's rep as a "fighting art". For better or worse, it seems that a lot of TKD schools have mastered this market niche. Thus, you get bashed by the "I want to learn to kick ass" crowd... 2. They only tackle the guy with the ball. By this, I mean that if TKD were not the most commercially visible of the martial arts, no one would take the time to bash it. If there were a Tai Chi school on every corner in America I guess they would take some of the heat, too. Since there's not, TKD wins by default. If TKD was some fringe/underground thing, then the bashers wouldn't give it a second thought. Heck, they might even see it and say, "that's pretty cool stuff"...the same way they look at Capoeira. 3. The rank thing has gotten out of hand. I think it's safe to say that most legitimate practitioners hang their head in shame (or get pissed off) when you hear about some 3-year-old kid who just got their black belt. That's like saying some 3-year-old went to Augusta and shot par. Well hell, if a 3-year-old can really do that, then what Tiger Woods does ain't so frigging special anymore. The bottom line is that the rank has been diluted to the point where it is almost meaningless. I think it's just as goofy to see 19-year-old kids who are 125-lbs soaking wet strutting around their dojangs with their 3rd degree black belt. Somewhere along the way, the goal became "rank attainment" as opposed to the development of attributes and skill. People find this silly...including me. 4. The Pitty-Pat Syndrome. OK, I'll take some heat for this one, but I'll say it anyway. If you want respect as a striking art, you're going to have to throw some leather. It's not enough to do controlled free sparring, alone. It's like saying, "We're a grappling art", but you never roll at anything close to full speed (if at all). Now, I've been around TKD schools that still used heavy contact...but I call that "Old School TKD". But, they're scarcer than hen's teeth, nowadays. The "New School" has definitely taken over in the past two decades, and New School does NOT like to get his hair mussed. I swear to God...I've had TKD people tell me, "Yeah, we fight full contact", and then you go to their school and they're doing point sparring with Macho gear...MAYBE they allow a light touch to the head. But that's full-contact in their eyes. That's fine if you want to do that, and it's completely valid as long as you see it for what it is. But, don't come crying to me when Master Pitty-Pat (7th dan, 23 years old) gets his head washed in the urinal because he decided to stand up to the drunk in the bar, and he didn't have a clue as to how to "drop the hammer" when it counted. Hey, these things happen. It doesn't matter to me anymore because I'm beyond the "I'm an XYZ stylist" crap. However, Muay Thai, BJJ people, and wrestlers just sit back and laugh their asses off (for good reason). Words to live by: half assed reverse punches just seem to bounce off of drunks, muggers, and high-school football players. Hit hard or be laughed at...if you don't like that, take up knitting (but then you'll just be dogged by pottery freaks). Think about it like this. Technically, old style TKD and Kyokushin-kai karate are not THAT different...in fact, they're just different limbs of the same tree. But I know MMA/NHB types who give mad props to Kyokushin-kai types just because of the way they fight with contact. No, they probably wouldn't train in it themselves...but they respect the physicality of it. People who do forms all their life will not understand this point...but, oh well. 5. For something that has been marketed as a self-defense art (in more than one corner), it is woefully inadequate from a technical standpoint. People on the outside see this, and dog it to no end because of this fact. In fact, I agree. Now, I've already got a short list in mind of the people that will come back and give me umpteen reasons why TKD is the ultimate form of self-defense. To keep it brief...pure TKD has no realistic approach to modern day weaponry or personal protective devices, there is absolutely no realistic approach to the standing clinch (where most fights begin), and anybody teaching ground fighting in their TKD school has borrowed from some other art...it AINT'T there. 'Nuff said (there's that Marvel phrase again). Here' another...FLAME ON!!! 6. Finally, the "It's So Obvious it Transcends Words" syndrome. I don't know any black belts in BJJ that haven't been through friggin WARS on the mat, both in the school and in competition. I could say the same thing about most Judo players...especially international players. I don't know any legitimate Muay Thai folks that don't have MONSTER cardio capacity, and are just ON POINT when it comes to the ability to fight with their hands and feet (not to mention those knees and elbows). Bottom line is this...there's a LOT of martial traditions out there in which there is just no room for posers. TKD seems to have put a sign on the door...Posers Welcome!!! I love TKD for what it is...Lord knows I love it. But, Gosh-dammit I meet too many people like the following... "Hi, I'm Mary Sue Homemaker. I'm a 43-year-old mother of three. I took up TKD about four years ago because I needed something to help firm up my butt, and one of my girlfriends in my Bunko group told me about TKD. So, here I am four years later. I'm a 3rd degree black belt, I know 35 forms, and I can manage about 5 push-ups before my body starts shaking uncontrollably. Yes, I know I need to work on my strength and conditioning. In fact, the other night we had a hardcore workout session. We did 50 kicks in class...on BOTH LEGS. And that was after the warm-up. Whew, I had to go home and lay in the Jacuzzi for over an hour. I almost got 6 push-ups that night, but my contact lens fell out and I had to stop and look for it. When I'm not learning a new one-step or helping someone with their choreography for their new musical form, I teach the Tuesday night women's self-defense class. I'm a certified Combat Assault Tactics (C.A.T.) instructor through our TKD federation. I took a 12-hour certification course to be CAT certified, and over the same weekend I was certified to teach bastardized Escrima and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Anyway, I teach women like myself how to protect themselves against violent assaults in modern urban environments...y'know, like when someone grabs your purse strings or digs their finger into your chest. We have a lot of tactics at our disposal, but I prefer wrist locks using a Kubotan...and kicks to the nuts. I'm also a competitor. I'm proud to say that I am the reigning world champion in our federation for both sparring and forms. Last year at the annual tournament, I placed first in both categories for my division...43-year-old Protestant females born between June and September, weighing more than 123 lbs but less than 137 lbs, and between 5 ft 3 inches and 5 ft 5 inches. I hope more than one person shows up for my division next year, but hey, I'm competitive like that. My husband says I have the eye of the tiger...LOOKOUT GIRLFRIENDS!!! Next year I hope to do weapons, but I don't know if I want to compete in Korean double sticks, or Korean 3-sectional staff (or Korean rope dart, for that matter). I need to make up my mind because the seminar where you learn the traditional form takes place next month. I hope to also be certified to be an instructor in TaeKwonKickarobicz...but I need to work on my conditioning." Now, I've met Mary Sue on numerous occasions. Some of you have probably met Mary Sue. Hell, some of your probably ARE Mary Sue. Here's my point...I don't blame Mary Sue. Mary Sue showed up, paid her dues, followed the rules, and is now on her way to becoming a career McPoser. The problem is that TKD got sold down the river a LONG time ago. Part of the selling process was to make TKD an all-inclusive recreational activity for the whole smiling family...wheeeeeeee!!! This means no black eyes and bloody lips. That's fine. The only problem is that those black eyes and bloody lips is what kept the posers out. Hell, all of these Hapkido people crying about Hackworth...as my Jewish friends would say, "You should HAVE such problems". For every Hackworth in Hapkido, there's a thousand Steve Urkels in TKD. Now, is this true of ALL TKD in America? Absolutely not. Some are still doing that "Old School" thing that I was talking about...sweating, working, fighting (at least a little), and GROWING through something that is truly challenging. And then there's the paper chasers. Beware the paper chasers my friends. They don't want to really kick ass and take names...they want to be CERTIFIED to kick ass and take names...preferably by someone else that was certified a long time ago. For what it's worth...opinions vary. <<>> Hell, you want the truth? Because it was what was available...same as 90% of the people out there (unless they're lying). I guess if I had been born in Antwerp, Germany I'd be sitting here posting on the Ving Tsun mailing list, and filtering IT though my later experiences in KALI, JKD and BJJ. Who knows? It's like I tell my friends who are hardcore fundamentalist Christians..."Just think...if you'd been born in Iran you'd have made a great Muslim fundamentalist". Craig Stovall Recognized: World Head of Family Sokeship Council Grandmaster of Smartass-Ryu - 10th Dan CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:44:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Furuya and the Last Samurai To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was wondering somethign about aikido. Is Aikido phsyically demanding? Like for instance, one must be in or should be in good shape to do TKD. Is the same true for aikido? Because not being funny, but Furuya is quite large. Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:51:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The Last Samurai (Barry Davis) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think what people are forgetting is creative freedom. I'm not sure if the movie is supposed to be based on a true story, or even an actual true story. If it was an actual account of something in history (time piece) then yes I can see why he bad mouthed it. *I did the same for a movie called Paid In Full...which was basically a movie about some NY drug dealers in the eighties. I found myself doing the same as the Rev and bad mouthing the movie because of the terrible props and lingo and other things. simply because I remember a lot about the 80s. So perhaps the same thing is going on with him. Now if it is based loosely on actual events then there still is no need to go off on the movie....because really, it's just a movie. It's either going to be right or wrong. Jye Yuribeast@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/16/2003 2:44:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: the first paragraph he states that he hasn't seen the movie and then he writes several paragraphs explaining why it is fake and not realistic? Hi: Since I have yet to see the movie, I will of course reserve judgment until that point. However, it appears to me that some folks are not quite getting the message that Furuya Sensei is trying to convey. While he has admitted to not seeing the movie, he did say he viewed various documentaries and other articles detailing, and showing, historical facts about certain aspects of Japanese history that Furuya Sensei appears to be quite an expert on. In other words, you don't have to watch a 2 hour movie to confirm the photos of the props and armor shown in the documentaries were indeed the same inaccurate replicas used throughout the movie. Furuya Sensei was shown videos of the armor, swords, and swordwork used throughout the movie, and in his opinion, found a number of historical inaccuracies. What's so disingenuous about that? Sincerely, Barry _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:13:52 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Something_to_think_about_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Danny: "......I just want to give you something to think about. Don't mean this to be telling you what you should do, but just to give you another way to look at things......" You are, of course, quite right. Nobody died and left me in the role of St John the Baptist--- the voice of one crying in the wilderness. If the events of the last 18 monthes have demonstrated nothing to me, it is that whatever shortcomings and injuries that take place in the KMA things will continue as they are because thats the way people want them--- nothing more and nothing less. My take on things was that if one presented enough information that perhaps folks might consider that we need not routinely have to deal with Hackworths if we really didn't want to. The fallacy in that thinking is that one must really want to. In the last few weeks there has been some pretty damning truth come to light about how things were conducted by the Hapkido contingent from down Florida way. I suspect that if ANYTHING would have gotten people to sit-up and take notice about the direction that the Hapkido arts had taken, THAT would have been it. As it is nothing has really changed, and even chubby wannabee is back to shooting his mouth off, blaming everyone but himself for the pass things have come to. So I sit and read your post and figure that maybe you might just be right. If people want things a particular way, who am I to dump on their party? Hackworth, or somebody like him, will be back and a year from now folks will be shooting posts back and forth, pro and con about how awful it is THAT situation is going down, and bellyaching about how terrible it is. Everybody needs a hobby. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:20:24 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Haidong GumDo/Iaido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, I was taught that Dae Han Gumdo is more along the lines of Kendo/Kenjutsu/Iaido and Haidong Gumdo was more related to traditional, perhaps even indigenous Korean technique. Can you elaborate? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:57:00 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] the last of the last furuya Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't think a lot of us are saying we don't think the good reverend knows what he is talking about... it stems from saying you haven't seen something and then tearing in to it with this huge critical analysis... that's MY point.. sure he says he has seen some photo's etc... but that is NOT like seeing the movie. Go see the movie and then give us the huge diatribe,, until then I see your analysis as less than stellar or valid... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest