Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:39:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #570 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Haidong GumDo/Iaido (Ray Terry) 2. Re: The God of Tonghak (fwd) (Ray Terry) 3. RE: Furuya and the Last Samurai (Ali Alnasser) 4. (no subject) (Joseph Lumpkin) 5. Harmony Wushu............ (George Peters) 6. Re: Re: KMA (Dante James) 7. Iaido vs HDGD - my 20 won (A. Boyd) 8. Re: Certificate & Recognition (Dewitt, Garrett) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Haidong GumDo/Iaido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:20:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I was taught that Dae Han Gumdo is more along the lines of > Kendo/Kenjutsu/Iaido and Haidong Gumdo was more related to traditional, > perhaps even indigenous Korean technique. Can you elaborate? Yes, I believe that Daehan Gumdo is essentially Korean Kendo, but Iaido isn't similar to Kendo. At least I didn't understand it that way. Anthony??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:24:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The God of Tonghak (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fowdarding. Of possible interest... ================================================================== I'm glad Tim Lee brought up the question of Pak Illo's use of the term Haneunim way back in the middle of the Chosun dynasty. I discussed Pak's use of that term in an article I published well over a decade ago. (That article, "Felicitous Fallacy: James Gale and the Creation of Korean Monotheism," appeared in a conference volume from a linguistics conference at the University of Toronto and therefore has not been seen by very many people.) In that article, I argued that Pak, an orthodox Neo-Confucian, used that term as a synonym for Ch'eon, as Neo-Confucians use that term. As such, it resembles the use of haneul in the Song of Flying Dragons. In other words, it does not refer to an indigenous Korean deity but instead is simply a vernacular term for a Neo-Confucian concept imported from China. By the way, the site where Tim Lee found that reference to Pak Illo, hananim.com, is an interesting site. It is not a Christian site. Rather, it appears to be run by people who are either members of or sympathetic to Taejong-gyo, the Tan'gun religion. I say that because several times that site mentions the scriptures of Taejong-gyo, including the Ch'eonbugyeong, a short text which believers claim is the world's oldest scripture. The point of that site appears to be to prove that Koreans don't need Christians to teach them about Hananim, since they have known about, and worshipped, Hananim ever since the days of Tan'gun Choson. However, to support their claim that Koreans have an ancient tradition of monotheism, that site quotes Underwood, Gale, and Hulbert! If anyone is interested in reading more about the claim that ancient Koreans were not only monotheists, but also believed in a Trinitarian God, see Sung-Deuk Oak's article in Vol 5, no. 1 of Acta Koreana (January, 2002). That article is entitled "North American Missionaries' Understanding of the Tan'gun and Kija Myths of Korea, 1884-1934." An Hosang, one-time leader of Taejong-gyo, has provided an English-language introduction to Taejong-gyo's trinitarian theology. It is available in vol 3,no. 3 of the Korean Journal, and also as an appendix to his Korean-language work "Baedal.Dongi kyeolye ui han yet yeoksa" A recent argument that trinitarian theology has long been a part of Korean tradition is Cho Chayong's Samsin Min'go, which came out in 1995. Don Baker Director, Centre for Korean Research Associate Professor, Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z2 CANADA --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:27:03 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Furuya and the Last Samurai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye : I was wondering somethign about aikido. Is Aikido phsyically demanding? Like for instance, one must be in or should be in good shape to do TKD. Is the same true for aikido? Because not being funny, but Furuya is quite large. Me: From my elementry knowledge of Aikido, I believe its as physical demanding as much as hapkido. Also, it would depend on what your instructor teaches as well. I've taken some Aikido classes and its as much demanding as Hapkido. A lot of techniques, etc. Maybe, he's got some kind of medical condition. There's a lot of Hapkido practitioners that are big. Not to mention any names. :) Ali Alnasser www.ushankido.org [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Lumpkin" To: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:42:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Thank you for your advice. I have considered it. I would have liked to keep everything low key. I must, as head of our little family, take responsibly for the decision to seek the approval from the KHF through Dr Hackworth. I must also take responsibility for agreeing to join the NHA. Before the truth was told it seemed like the correct move. (Thinking it was indeed an arm of the KHF.) Life is not tidy and most of the time major decisions in life are based on insufficient data. Dr Hackworth is correct when he said we were "puckered up" in that we were glad to be there in FL for what we thought was a pivotal point in Hapkido... And he was correct. It was - just not as he expected. Now with more of the truth exposed we have announced our disassociation with the NHA. This week an article appears in TKD Times to the contrary and states that three Shinsei Hapkidoists are state reps for the NHA. It was, as you put it, for our good name that we joined the NHA and thought we had joined the KHF. Now, it is for our good name that we break with the NHA. So, my friend, you are correct. The TKD Times article must be corrected. I have contacted Carol Hart and arranged to place a small piece in the editorial section. She said it was the best she could do at this time. I hope she will print it as promised. I noticed Shinsei has reached target status for Dr. Hackworth. That is a shame since we tried to keep a low profile during this transition. It is very ironic that the contacts afforded us by Dr Hackworth's meeting in FL with Master Bae and Master Oh have allowed us to reach our intended goals. Daryl has been on the phone with Master Bae today. They are trying to make arrangements to clear up some things. It looks like Shinsei has membership. This is good. There is some justice left. I still wait to see how far justice flies and how sure her aim. In my opinion, although I am glad we now have "real" membership, the trip was soiled, the status of the KHF has been questioned, and the journey was not worth it. I wish we had met Master Cyrus before all of this began. If it were not for my pursuit of "perfect finish" I would not have continued to push for KHF membership after the truth was told, however, I am a type "A" and fairly goal driven, so here we are. Now that this is behind us, with the exception of some sniping and damage control, we will apply ourselves to the greater goal and with the help of Master Cyrus (who one can actually get on the phone, work with, and is available...) we will do well. I continue to rely on "those who have come before" so thank you all for your input. Joseph Lumpkin Shinsei Hapkido --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:23:25 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Harmony Wushu............ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: When, and where is this event to transpire? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger — learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dante James" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KMA Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:16:42 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Stovall, I just want to thank you for Mary Sue. After I stopped laughing, which was quite a while, I tried to think of just how many Mary Sue's that I knew. I couldn't get an answer because I started laughing too much again. Peace Dante Dante J. James, Esq. www.denverata.com Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:26 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KMA > <<>> > > > > OK, long post...sorry. I could write volumes, but here's my top reasons as > to why TKD gets laughed at. Keep in mind I've been involved with TKD as > well as other martial arts, so I've been privy to some of the mindsets that > take shots at TKD. > > > > 1. It's viewed as a "kid thing" in some corners...probably because a > lot of dojangs are full of nothing but kids (duh). Of course, this is by > design since they've got all the energy and their parents have all the > money. Most commercially viable schools have to attract a large child > contingent in order to generate huge revenue, but running your school as a > glorified daycare/afterschool program is not going to do much for TKD's rep > as a "fighting art". For better or worse, it seems that a lot of TKD > schools have mastered this market niche. Thus, you get bashed by the "I > want to learn to kick ass" crowd... > > > > 2. They only tackle the guy with the ball. By this, I mean that if > TKD were not the most commercially visible of the martial arts, no one would > take the time to bash it. If there were a Tai Chi school on every corner in > America I guess they would take some of the heat, too. Since there's not, > TKD wins by default. If TKD was some fringe/underground thing, then the > bashers wouldn't give it a second thought. Heck, they might even see it and > say, "that's pretty cool stuff"...the same way they look at Capoeira. > > > > 3. The rank thing has gotten out of hand. I think it's safe to say > that most legitimate practitioners hang their head in shame (or get pissed > off) when you hear about some 3-year-old kid who just got their black belt. > That's like saying some 3-year-old went to Augusta and shot par. Well hell, > if a 3-year-old can really do that, then what Tiger Woods does ain't so > frigging special anymore. The bottom line is that the rank has been diluted > to the point where it is almost meaningless. I think it's just as goofy to > see 19-year-old kids who are 125-lbs soaking wet strutting around their > dojangs with their 3rd degree black belt. Somewhere along the way, the goal > became "rank attainment" as opposed to the development of attributes and > skill. People find this silly...including me. > > > > 4. The Pitty-Pat Syndrome. OK, I'll take some heat for this one, but > I'll say it anyway. If you want respect as a striking art, you're going to > have to throw some leather. It's not enough to do controlled free sparring, > alone. It's like saying, "We're a grappling art", but you never roll at > anything close to full speed (if at all). Now, I've been around TKD schools > that still used heavy contact...but I call that "Old School TKD". But, > they're scarcer than hen's teeth, nowadays. The "New School" has definitely > taken over in the past two decades, and New School does NOT like to get his > hair mussed. I swear to God...I've had TKD people tell me, "Yeah, we fight > full contact", and then you go to their school and they're doing point > sparring with Macho gear...MAYBE they allow a light touch to the head. But > that's full-contact in their eyes. That's fine if you want to do that, and > it's completely valid as long as you see it for what it is. But, don't come > crying to me when Master Pitty-Pat (7th dan, 23 years old) gets his head > washed in the urinal because he decided to stand up to the drunk in the bar, > and he didn't have a clue as to how to "drop the hammer" when it counted. > Hey, these things happen. It doesn't matter to me anymore because I'm > beyond the "I'm an XYZ stylist" crap. However, Muay Thai, BJJ people, and > wrestlers just sit back and laugh their asses off (for good reason). Words > to live by: half assed reverse punches just seem to bounce off of drunks, > muggers, and high-school football players. Hit hard or be laughed at...if > you don't like that, take up knitting (but then you'll just be dogged by > pottery freaks). Think about it like this. Technically, old style TKD and > Kyokushin-kai karate are not THAT different...in fact, they're just > different limbs of the same tree. But I know MMA/NHB types who give mad > props to Kyokushin-kai types just because of the way they fight with > contact. No, they probably wouldn't train in it themselves...but they > respect the physicality of it. People who do forms all their life will not > understand this point...but, oh well. > > > > 5. For something that has been marketed as a self-defense art (in > more than one corner), it is woefully inadequate from a technical > standpoint. People on the outside see this, and dog it to no end because of > this fact. In fact, I agree. Now, I've already got a short list in mind of > the people that will come back and give me umpteen reasons why TKD is the > ultimate form of self-defense. To keep it brief...pure TKD has no realistic > approach to modern day weaponry or personal protective devices, there is > absolutely no realistic approach to the standing clinch (where most fights > begin), and anybody teaching ground fighting in their TKD school has > borrowed from some other art...it AINT'T there. 'Nuff said (there's that > Marvel phrase again). Here' another...FLAME ON!!! > > > > 6. Finally, the "It's So Obvious it Transcends Words" syndrome. I > don't know any black belts in BJJ that haven't been through friggin WARS on > the mat, both in the school and in competition. I could say the same thing > about most Judo players...especially international players. I don't know > any legitimate Muay Thai folks that don't have MONSTER cardio capacity, and > are just ON POINT when it comes to the ability to fight with their hands and > feet (not to mention those knees and elbows). Bottom line is this...there's > a LOT of martial traditions out there in which there is just no room for > posers. TKD seems to have put a sign on the door...Posers Welcome!!! I > love TKD for what it is...Lord knows I love it. But, Gosh-dammit I meet too > many people like the following... > > > > "Hi, I'm Mary Sue Homemaker. I'm a 43-year-old mother of three. I took up > TKD about four years ago because I needed something to help firm up my butt, > and one of my girlfriends in my Bunko group told me about TKD. So, here I > am four years later. I'm a 3rd degree black belt, I know 35 forms, and I > can manage about 5 push-ups before my body starts shaking uncontrollably. > Yes, I know I need to work on my strength and conditioning. In fact, the > other night we had a hardcore workout session. We did 50 kicks in > class...on BOTH LEGS. And that was after the warm-up. Whew, I had to go > home and lay in the Jacuzzi for over an hour. I almost got 6 push-ups that > night, but my contact lens fell out and I had to stop and look for it. When > I'm not learning a new one-step or helping someone with their choreography > for their new musical form, I teach the Tuesday night women's self-defense > class. I'm a certified Combat Assault Tactics (C.A.T.) instructor through > our TKD federation. I took a 12-hour certification course to be CAT > certified, and over the same weekend I was certified to teach bastardized > Escrima and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Anyway, I teach women like myself how to > protect themselves against violent assaults in modern urban > environments...y'know, like when someone grabs your purse strings or digs > their finger into your chest. We have a lot of tactics at our disposal, but > I prefer wrist locks using a Kubotan...and kicks to the nuts. I'm also a > competitor. I'm proud to say that I am the reigning world champion in our > federation for both sparring and forms. Last year at the annual tournament, > I placed first in both categories for my division...43-year-old Protestant > females born between June and September, weighing more than 123 lbs but less > than 137 lbs, and between 5 ft 3 inches and 5 ft 5 inches. I hope more than > one person shows up for my division next year, but hey, I'm competitive like > that. My husband says I have the eye of the tiger...LOOKOUT GIRLFRIENDS!!! > Next year I hope to do weapons, but I don't know if I want to compete in > Korean double sticks, or Korean 3-sectional staff (or Korean rope dart, for > that matter). I need to make up my mind because the seminar where you learn > the traditional form takes place next month. I hope to also be certified to > be an instructor in TaeKwonKickarobicz...but I need to work on my > conditioning." > > > > Now, I've met Mary Sue on numerous occasions. Some of you have probably met > Mary Sue. Hell, some of your probably ARE Mary Sue. Here's my point...I > don't blame Mary Sue. Mary Sue showed up, paid her dues, followed the > rules, and is now on her way to becoming a career McPoser. The problem is > that TKD got sold down the river a LONG time ago. Part of the selling > process was to make TKD an all-inclusive recreational activity for the whole > smiling family...wheeeeeeee!!! This means no black eyes and bloody lips. > That's fine. The only problem is that those black eyes and bloody lips is > what kept the posers out. Hell, all of these Hapkido people crying about > Hackworth...as my Jewish friends would say, "You should HAVE such problems". > For every Hackworth in Hapkido, there's a thousand Steve Urkels in TKD. > > > > Now, is this true of ALL TKD in America? Absolutely not. Some are still > doing that "Old School" thing that I was talking about...sweating, working, > fighting (at least a little), and GROWING through something that is truly > challenging. And then there's the paper chasers. Beware the paper chasers > my friends. They don't want to really kick ass and take names...they want > to be CERTIFIED to kick ass and take names...preferably by someone else that > was certified a long time ago. For what it's worth...opinions vary. > > > > << Arts? (as opposed to Japanese, Chinese, Filipino etc.)>>> > > > > Hell, you want the truth? Because it was what was available...same as 90% > of the people out there (unless they're lying). I guess if I had been born > in Antwerp, Germany I'd be sitting here posting on the Ving Tsun mailing > list, and filtering IT though my later experiences in KALI, JKD and BJJ. > Who knows? It's like I tell my friends who are hardcore fundamentalist > Christians..."Just think...if you'd been born in Iran you'd have made a > great Muslim fundamentalist". > > > > Craig Stovall > > Recognized: World Head of Family Sokeship Council > > Grandmaster of Smartass-Ryu - 10th Dan > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information > intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If > this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure > whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please > immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy > any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of > this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this > communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal > privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 03:05:45 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Iaido vs HDGD - my 20 won Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray asked about Iaido and Haidong Gumdo... In my experience, there is so much variation from place to place that it gets hard to tell what is or is not taught in an art. Also, I know an awful lot more about Haidong Gumdo than I do about schools of Iaido. I do have limited experience with Iaido, but I would never list it on my "martial arts resume." Please remember that when reading my comments. If I were to compare the two arts in general, I would state that they both focus on the use of real blades, employ forms and drills of various lengths, and provide training in cutting. If I were to contrast them, I would state that they have a different focus in terms of material. Iaido seems to focus on attacking/defending from the draw, including seated/kneeling practice. Each step seems to be very detailed and refined. Great formality and respect for the sword is encouraged. The pace of execution appears measured and distinct. Haidong Gumdo focuses on the melee and pre-existing action. Emphasis is placed on using footwork and stances to negate disadvantageous terrain characteristics and maximize power generation. Forms and sparring practice include armed and unarmed techniques. The sword is regarded as a lethal tool. The pace of execution is fast and fluid. There are lots of other differences, (such as cutting material), but from my standpoint I feel that these are the major differences most likely to be encountered by people anywhere in the world. I'm really looking forward to read what others have to say about this question. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:17:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Certificate & Recognition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Timmerman wrote: "I see them as a token of appreciation for the many hours of studying that go into teaching/learning the required material to earn the certificate". Good day Saja Nim. The "old time" training was just to much fun, even on the brain fatigued days Sir. Recognition? My student who accompanied me to the Soo (pain city) for this training, PSN Keppers, was a bit surprised by the huge friendly welcome we received once in your dojang. The warm verbal "hello" and "welcome home" comments were surprising to her. What did tip her curiosity was the "questionable smiles" we,(especially me) received from Mr. Lorne Keatley, Mr. Janisse and Mr. Fisher. When she asked me about "those questionable smiles," I merely told her, "just get ready for some really good fun." Days later on the way back to Brainerd, PSN Keppers mentioned something to me about, "there being something wrong with me for driving to the Soo for this type of beating, I mean training" and she now knows exactly what those "questionable smiles were all about." She told me, "they couldn't wait to get you on the mat." I told her, "correct, but did you notice the RECOGNITION?" "Forget certificates and all of that fun stuff, their smiles and salivation just to get me, us on the mat is recognition enough." As Grandmaster J.R. West mentioned, "join, train and learn." This is exactly what is wrong with me, I want that knowledge. Respectfully Submitted Master DeWitt "old school Chung Do Kwan practitioner." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest