Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:04:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #2 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Delema: Loyalty to your school (Thomas Gordon) 2. Re: student creeds (bmac2) 3. RE: Re: Mr Hackworth (John Johnson) 4. RE: Delema: Loyalty to your school (Master Mark Seidel) 5. (no subject) (Keith Shaw) 6. Re:Student Creed (Manuel Maldonado) 7. Student Creed (Charles Richards) 8. Split Loyalty (Charles Richards) 9. Never too old (Rudy Timmerman) 10. student creeds (Hope this helps) (Jason E. Thomas ) 11. Re: Re: Mr Hackworth (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Delema: Loyalty to your school Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:39:39 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Shillieto, Many commercial schools cater to color belts and really don't have an adult retention program in place. Been there so I know what you're going through. When I faced this, I started driving about an hour away so I could train in traditional ju-jitsu and not be a conflict of interest for our taekwondo school. That lasted 18 months. Eventually I left the taekwondo school for lack of instruction .... among other things. Look at it this way, you'll be a much better instructor having first hand experience of what it feels like to be stagnant. So, if it were me, I would cross train for a while and see if things got better. If they didn't get better and the instructor wasn't receptive to my dilemma, I would fade out. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: JShillieto@aol.com [mailto:JShillieto@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:47 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Delema: Loyalty to your school I have a question (which I'm sure has been hashed over many times before) but has been eating at me for many weeks now. What if your club no longer provides for your needs but being loyal you can't bring yourself to leave? I think I know the answer already but am interested in others opinions. I have been involved with my club for eight years and recently tested for 2nd Dan. My club may fit in to what has been described here as a Mcdojang. We cater to youngsters and civilian type adults (most of whom view Taekwondo as just another weekly activity--like a kids piano lesson). We do promote respect, etc. and try to provide the basics but there is a lack of athleticism (we do no conditioning for example and very little developmental stretching - we work forms mostly. Classes are only an hour long and much of the time there is little room in the dojang for independent practice). The real void has become apparent as a black belt. I don't receive the training that I feel I need at this point, but I also don't feel qualified to criticise. I certainly don't feel qualified to instruct others at this point. Its almost as if our club awards us a belt rank first in order to motivate us to then go back and work to earn it, if that makes any sense. I'm willing to put in the work certainly, but without guidance its tough. I'm now thinking of doubling up with another school in Hapkido. I think I can learn things that I can take back to my TKD club. Any thoughts out there? John _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:01:29 -0600 From: "bmac2" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] student creeds Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Mark, Our student creed is listed on the web site, or you can use the one from Winnie the Pooh. "I can be more then I am, I can do more then I think I can and I am smarter then I think I am" LOL www.braeswoodmartialart.com Kat ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: tntcombatives@comcast.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 01:07:54 +0000 >Greetings All, > I was thinking of adding a student creed to my children's class. Rather than re-inventing the wheel, would some of you esteemed DDers be willing to provide examples that you use? I'm looking for something without large/complicated words for use by 6- 10 year olds....any info would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks in advance, >-- >Mark Gajdostik >TNT-Martial Arts >503-887-9351 >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr Hackworth Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:13:04 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Clay, I don't know much about the other certifictes or the video tapes, but I believe I saw the stone plaque you mentioned. Kevin Houston sent me photos of the certificates he was claiming to be his official letters of appointment. I saw a photo of a stone plaque which was a "Kam-sa" certificate, or "thank you certificate". It was from a Master Kim, Jung-song, and was dated January 1995. I don't know any master by this name (keep in mind that means nothing since there are hundreds of masters in Korea), but these plaques are not awarded through the KHF. This one was probably given to him by the master. I have also received similar plaques from my instructor and fellow students. They were given to me last summer before I left Seoul to move to Busan. They are easily attainable and, again, have nothing to do the KHF. Copies of the KHF official documents have been posted on the KHF web site. Also, Mr. Hackworth is a recognized 6th dan under the KHF. He has also been given a "Letter of Appointment", which simply states he can open his own school under the KHF. This letter is what he told many people was his US representative appointment letter because of the poorly translated English at the bottom. He may have received more certificiates than these, but I cannot say which ones without certainty. I hope this clarifies things a little. John A. Johnson _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet access. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Delema: Loyalty to your school Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:22:57 -0500 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At your level, you should definitely be training in some close quarter art like Hapkido; TKD is a distance art. Loyalty goes both way the head of the school should recognize your needs as well; have you spoken to him or her about your needs? Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: JShillieto@aol.com [mailto:JShillieto@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 11:47 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Delema: Loyalty to your school I have a question (which I'm sure has been hashed over many times before) but has been eating at me for many weeks now. What if your club no longer provides for your needs but being loyal you can't bring yourself to leave? I think I know the answer already but am interested in others opinions. I have been involved with my club for eight years and recently tested for 2nd Dan. My club may fit in to what has been described here as a Mcdojang. We cater to youngsters and civilian type adults (most of whom view Taekwondo as just another weekly activity--like a kids piano lesson). We do promote respect, etc. and try to provide the basics but there is a lack of athleticism (we do no conditioning for example and very little developmental stretching - we work forms mostly. Classes are only an hour long and much of the time there is little room in the dojang for independent practice). The real void has become apparent as a black belt. I don't receive the training that I feel I need at this point, but I also don't feel qualified to criticise. I certainly don't feel qualified to instruct others at this point. Its almost as if our club awards us a belt rank first in order to motivate us to then go back and work to earn it, if that makes any sense. I'm willing to put in the work certainly, but without guidance its tough. I'm now thinking of doubling up with another school in Hapkido. I think I can learn things that I can take back to my TKD club. Any thoughts out there? John --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Keith Shaw" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 09:19:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John, I would encourage you to explore other styles whether it be through doubling up at another dojang, or through videos, books and seminars. Tournaments are also a good place to meet others and trade ideas and even have those new friends train with you at your school or theirs (as long as the Kwan Chang Nim is open to it). My view is that as martial artists, we owe it to ourselves to explore and learn from other styles and arts. It makes us better students and teachers. And it is not disloyal to our original or primary school in my view...the learning and training is what keeps me going! Keith Shaw -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 08:49:41 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Student Creed Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark I've always found this one to be very helpful: Tenants of Tae Kwon-Do  Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, self control, Indomitable Spirit.   Tae Kwon-Do Student Oath  I shall observe the tenants of Tae Kwon-Do,  I shall respect all instructors and seniors,  I shall never misuse Tae Kwon-Do, I shall be a champion of freddom and justice,  I shall strive to build a more peaceful world. Maldonado Song Seng. http://devoted.to/Taekwondo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Expand your wine savvy — and get some great new recipes — at MSN Wine. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Student Creed Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark Said " I was thinking of adding a student creed to my children's class. Rather than re-inventing the wheel, would some of you esteemed DDers be willing to provide examples that you use? I'm looking for something without large/complicated words for use by 6-10 year olds....any info would be greatly appreciated." Paraphrasing as it's been over a decade, but... Never fight to achieve selfish ends But to develop might for right Jhoon Rhee Institute or My modification of TSD(TKD) MDK 5 codes 1. Loyalty to country 2. Loyalty to family 3. Trust and Brotherhood among friends 4. Courage, never to retreat in battle 5. Justice, never to take a life without cause My 8-10 year olds learn it in a week or two just hearing it at every bow in and bow out. My 5-7 year olds all can recite this in the first month... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:49:47 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Split Loyalty Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John, Just a couple of thoughts, having left an international org. after a lot of prayer, reflection, etc... 1. Have you had this converstion (at a calm time) with your master/chief instructor, clearly and respectfully explaining your needs and desires? 2. Traditionaly (?) one seeks a blessing to train outside the primary dojang. Many color belts are surprised when their master says no or it's not a good idea. All I can say is IMHO you need a very strong and stable trunk before you go sprouting a bunch of branches. Then you have to decide do you want your martial arts to look like a live oak or a redwood. 3. There are many good sources for conditioning programs and that can be a fun and challenging cross training with rewards coming back to your martial arts training. Most martial arts dojang (not private)classes are either/both repetative and/or learning intensive. Everyone must know the material and not need much correction to have a cardio or conditioning class. 4. Seems to be a trend of the 45 minute to 1 hour class to cut the 30 minute warm up to say 5 to 10 minutes of light static stretching. Can you get there early and is there space to "condition" and stretch before class? Having a strong sense of loyalty and feeling that your needs are not being met is a tough situation. In my case, I allowed my loyalty to cause me to endure an additional year of something that wasn't working for me. It won't be an easy path to resolve, but certainly worth pursuing in a respectful seek first to understnd and then to be understood dialouge. Good Luck, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 02:56:50 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Never too old Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings all: I hope everyone had a great holiday season, and I sincerely wish everyone a very healthy New Year. I was made aware of a posting on one of the other lists, and I feel that I need to clear up some minor errors to keep things straight. Jeremy wrote: > I didn't even like driving from Downers Grove to Aurora after GM > Timmerman's last seminar which is only a 20 minute drive. Hello Jeremy: What's up with that??? I drove to Chicago on Friday (11 hours), flew to Houston and did a one day seminar on Saturday, flew back to Chicago on Sunday to do a benefit seminar there (the one you attended) for a good friend, and then I drove back to Canada (another 11 hours) in order to get my partner Lorne back in time for work... all in the same weekend. Piece of cake:) In that same thread, someone asked if I were the same person who trained in Kuk Sool, and my friend Jere answered that nicely; however, he also said that I was in my mid-seventies:( Now I know that I don't look as pretty as I used to, but Jere you have just added ten years to my life. At this point in my life every year is too fast as it is, and mid-sixties is bad enough. Just the same, you can expect me on the mat in Jackson for JRs 30th anniversary by the time I reach my mid-seventies. Hope Jeremy won't be too tired to get there and join me on the mat:) Talking about thirty year anniversaries, I am happy to share with you the fact that 2004 is the 30th anniversary of the year I quit my real job and opened my own school. I'll be celebrating all year, and I expect to share a toast (or two) with the folks in Jackson. It was the best thing I ever did for myself. Plans for a good ole party/dance are in the works, and it should be sometime in April when the roads are a bit better for visitors. I'd welcome any DD visitors who are up to the drive and some free training. I'll announce the actual date SAP. BTW, I plan to drive to Jackson; after all, it is just a mere 20 hours or so... a nice little jaunt. Heck, in my younger days (around mid-fifty), I would drive 56 hours to join my GM for his birthday party in San Francisco. I would leave the Sault, and I would not stop until I reached North Platte or Cheyenne. After one night sleep, I would drive to Reno, pull a few handles on the slots there, and then drive the rest of the way to San Francisco to do some training or visiting and drive back home the day after the party. JR, it seems they just don't make them like they used to:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jason E. Thomas " To: "The Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] student creeds (Hope this helps) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 10:28:11 -0600 Organization: North Austin Tae Kwon Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark, TKD: Student Creed: (Jhoon Rhee I believe) To build ourselves physically and mentally. To build friendship with one another, and to be a strong group. Never to fight to achieve selfish ends, but to develop might for right. Student Oath: I shall observe the tenets of Tae Kwon-Do. I shall respect the instructor and seniors. I shall never misuse Tae Kwon-Do. I shall be a champion of freedom and justice. I shall build a more peaceful world. The Shotokan Dojo Kun is: Seek Perfection of Character Be Faithful Endeavor Respect Others Refrain from Violent Behavior Tukong Musool: (Instructor) Three times! (Class) Patience! (Instructor) Three times! (Class) Consider! (Instructor) Three times! (Class) Forgive! (Everyone) Kiap! Kiap! Kiap! Hope this helps! Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com > -----Original Message----- > From: tntcombatives@comcast.net [mailto:tntcombatives@comcast.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:08 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] student creeds > > Greetings All, > I was thinking of adding a student creed to my children's class. > Rather than re-inventing the wheel, would some of you esteemed DDers be > willing to provide examples that you use? I'm looking for something > without large/complicated words for use by 6-10 year olds....any info > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > -- > Mark Gajdostik > TNT-Martial Arts > 503-887-9351 > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr Hackworth To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 08:52:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Mr. Hackworth is a real black belt. I have not seen many of his techniques but > what I have seen is decent. As far as being a high ranking TKD black belt... I > know he was certified by Korea Taekwondo ChungDoKwan. I saw his stone > certificate, but I'm thinking it only said 5th dan. But what good is this? The only TKD org in S. Korea handing out recognized Dan certs is the Kukkiwon. From what I have been told, he is not Kukkiwon certified. That data may be incorrect, but if accurate he was not a TKDer during his time in Korea. Seems rather difficult since he claims to the the 4 time Gold Medal winner of the Korean National TKD championsip... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest