Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 07:30:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #59 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Origins (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Master Gommels (luke rose) 3. Let's Have Some Fun (Lois Knorr) 4. young founders and sport - part 2 (Brian Beach) 5. Thank you (George Peters) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Which_Ones=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Weapons Training (Charles Richards) 8. RE: Pan Gon Song (Hagness, Chris R.) 9. RE: young founders and sport - part 2 (Rick Clark) 10. Re: Thank you (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:40:05 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Origins Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Gawd knows that somewhere in > your background you are probably related to Hamel and we could build a > case for you being descended from one of the first Dutchmen to master > all > of the extant Korean martial arts before escaping to Japan where he > imparted his knowledge to the Japanese Emperor. Hello Bruce: Are you perhaps telling me my ancestors were a bit adventurous when spreading "goodwill":) FWIW, I am just looking through some of my old information on European combative arts, and there is clear evidence that some Hollanders were quite adept at swordsmanship. When you look at the old maps (naming of places by the Dutch), it can be seen that Dutchmen did get around. IMHO, this would have given them lots of opportunity to "share" ideas with other combatants. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:16:49 -0800 (PST) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Gommels Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank Clay, Thanks for your view of Fred Gommels. I was a student of his while he was working with Hackworth. I became unsure of his backing and laid off with my training with Fred. I've had a lot of negative encounters in the martial art world. I became scared and ran off. However, I never quit my training. I now wish I never lost my relationship with Fred. He is the one of two professional martial artists that I have meant who I have ever considered to be honorable. I have always had nothing but good feelings about Fred. So, recently I contacted him and it made me feel great! He has made his intentions clear about his new contact with GM Song and I trust them. It has been a long time since I have had reliable backing and I'm very excited. It looks like I'll finally be able to test for my third dan this May. Even though I have not been able to further my rank I'm sure Master Gommels will be impressed with my skill advancements. Can't wait to show him. Enjoying the journey, Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 00:07:58 -0500 (EST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Let's Have Some Fun Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good evening Bruce, It couldn't happen to a better role model! Let's start spreading the "true" history of the Dutch connection Laughin' Lois ...we could build a case for you being descended from one of the first Dutchmen to master all of the extant Korean martial arts before escaping to Japan where he imparted his knowledge to the Japanese Emperor. As we all know that same information was disseminated by imperial decree and is the foundation for all Japanese MA we know today. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 01:10:38 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] young founders and sport - part 2 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 25¢ Hi Rick, Hapkido, Escrima, Ryu Te are some that come to mind. As for technique legality, I think that you are confusing legality with control. To borrow a phrase from Judo the key is keeping "mutual welfare and benefit" in mind. I can only speak to actual practice in Hapkido. In our sparing classes lower belts use techniques that they have control over so it ends up looking like TKD sparing. As people progress joint locks sweeps,throws etc are blended in. Do we actually strike each other in the throat or a full elbow to head of course not. Do we make enough contact to let each other know we are there - yes. (my wife was oh so pleased with my black eye for our wedding, note: face blocking - bad technique) If I can throw or sweep you its time to test your nakbup - as a white belt you learned how to fall and that is just as important as learning how to throw. We're all there to learn and grow not disable each other. Now am I in the bash martial sport camp definitely not. I went to school for Art and one of the exercises was only using a specific technique or color pallet. It forced you to find a solution without relying on things that you knew that you could make work. It was frustrating at times but broadened your view. I played Judo for a short while and loved it. (had to stop going because it is held on a gov. campus and now access is limited as threat levels rise and fall) But some of the situations that I found my self in mat waza where in hapkido a small joint manipulation or a trachea grab would have served nicely, it was illegal. A bonus to the limitation was the legal techniques improved greatly. I had to be patient and work for position. To paraphrase Lao Tzu , "The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon". Its best not to get caught up in where the knowledge comes from. Brian P.S. If you take that finger and stick in someone's eye .. now you got something! :) On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 09:32 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > Can you give me an example of any martial art today that is truly a > martial > art that you can practice with another person? It seems to me there > must be > some things that are "illegal" to practice with your partner or risk > serious > injury to them. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:49:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thank you Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Most Esteemed Membership, Thank you so much for your kindness in helping me with my decisions, and opening my eyes to other points of view. You have all given me much to consider. On another note regarding the recent discussions on sports and arts: when I first started in TSD, it was explained to me that some practictioners wanted a sport for competition and broke away to form TKD as GM Hwang Kee did not want TSD used for competitive purposes. This isn't here-say, I have heard this more than once from some of the older masters, although I have never asked our GM, who is a direct student of Hwang Kee. If I get a chance, I'll ask him. Please do not stick pins in your portly effigal voodo doll or tender multi-generational curses, I'm only conveying what I have been told. Just wondering what your version is. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Keep up with high-tech trends here at "Hook'd on Technology." http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:23:40 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Which_Ones=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ralph: ".....Again I do apologize,but I do like hearing your veiws. .........." Many thanks for your post. Along these lines, then, my offer (and encouragement) still stands. I don't think we have to all become research librarians when we use these Nets. I just think that the quality of what gets passed around in the way of information improve dramatically. Recently, there was a post on SFI citing a particular quote from SOURCES OF KOREAN CIVILIZATION by Lee. I decided to pull Lee off the shelf to read the whole citation in context, as sometimes things mean something different when a person teases out just one small section. As it turned out I couldn't find the particular quote and wrote back for clarification. Had the contributor not said where he got the info from I might well have started passing the information around without much thought, right? As I say, we don't have to include bibliographies with every post. I just think it helps people who want to dig deeper on particular subjects. Let me know if I can help. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:28:28 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Weapons Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Jump. In the case of eskrima, not all eskrimas are taught alike. Some styles teach blade oriented techniques using a stick. It contributes to a longer life for your training partner. Others teach that a stick is just a stick, nothing more. IMO, one is more likely to develop blade skills w/o blade training by using the first approach than using the second. " Thank you Ray. I now remember the folks in seminars I've been to explaining that the orientation of the fist represents the orientation of the blade, wheras in dan bong seminars it has been taught as a "stick." And an excellent point about re-useable partners. So switching to another post... IMHO, If you can't do something because it violates the core values of that particular system, then I'd argue you are practicing that art's martial sport. If you can't do something because it allows your training partner to keep training then that's common sense. For example, what little I know about Hapkido, and Juijitsu, it is universally considered bad manners to manipulate your partners joints to the point that the tendons actually rip off the bones and the bones become misplaced, or to leave your partner in a circle fall with only enough momentum to land on their head, and so on..... Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Hagness, Chris R." To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Pan Gon Song Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:53:48 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank, Ray, others, Couldn't agree with you more about Fred Gommels, good heart and very solid art. GM Song is highly energetic and a good instructor despite the language barrier. From what I hear, GM Song only has ambitions for promoting and conducting legitimate training in, and connections between, the US and Korea. In 6 years, I haven't seen an ounce of dishonesty, misrepresentation, or bad attitude from either. As for Simmudo, you can check the website at www.simmudo.com - it's mainly an organization that provides a connection to legitimate practitioners and supports/organizes training seminars and Korea trips. It's a lot of work, with very little for compensation. They do conduct black belt testings and have a (comparatively short) curriculum which is required for testing, but the ranking is redundant with your primary art. IMO, the testing and ranking is a nice byproduct of a well-designed training seminar. The training quality of the seminars and the seminar fee structure are such that it just makes sense to become a Simmudo member. The testings conclude a week-long training seminar, and allow members to go through the procedure together. Certainly nobody is promoted above their normal dan rankings, and quite the opposite may be true. The association officials are not chosen by rank; they are contact people for a given area of the world, and I believe, but am not certain, that they volunteer for the positions. FYI, there is another seminar with GM Song coming up on May 17-23. Chris Hagness --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] young founders and sport - part 2 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:07:17 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce, > Hi Rick, > Hapkido, Escrima, Ryu Te are some that come to mind. As for technique > legality, I think that you are confusing legality with control. No, I am not confusing legality with control. I have been involved with a bit of Hapkido and Modern Arnis, I have not heard of Ryu Te. When you (or I) use the term "legal" I am sure we don't mean "against federal or state law" but rather against the rules set by a particular school for given techniques and their application. In Judo for example we can throw an individual with great speed and they can be thrown with a great deal of force. As Tori you "control" your technique so as to reduce the probability of injury to Uki. In joint locks you control the amount of force you apply so as not to break the joint of your opponent. You have rules to protect your opponent, and you use control to protect them as well. Legal comes into play when you set rules for scoring some type of point so you can win a match or competition. Can you have a competition in Hapkido or Escrima/Arnis? > Now am I in the bash martial sport camp definitely not. I still don't understand what, in your mind, differentiates a martial sport from a martial art. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Thank you To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:00:19 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > On another note regarding the recent discussions on sports and arts: > when I first started in TSD, it was explained to me that some practictioners > wanted a sport for competition and broke away to form TKD as GM Hwang Kee > did not want TSD used for competitive purposes. I heard this too, back in the day. But it appears to not be entirely accurate. Hwang Kee was involved in the early movement to sport, but he wanted to be in charge. It seems that, egos being what they are, both Hwang Kee and Gen. Choi wanted to be "large and in charge". Perhaps(?) the other kwan leaders were happy in playing along. When it developed that Hwang Kee wasn't going to be running things, he split off to form a group that he could lead. As one of Hwang Kee's early students put it, Hwang Kee would rather be the biggest fish is a small pond instead of just another big fish in a big pond. Gen. Choi was in charge for a short time, but he refused to step down and had to be forced out. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest