Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:28:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #60 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Congratulate me and more... (Sheree Goldstein) 2. Re: young founders and sport - part 2 (Ray Terry) 3. Re: Congratulate me and more... (bmac2) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Just_Having_Fun?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Having_Fun?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. RE: young founders and sport - part 2 (Rick Clark) 7. sport -part 3 (Brian Beach) 8. Martial Sport vs. Martial Art (Ray Terry) 9. sparring (freddie bishop) 10. George's Interest in Weapons (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 11. Question for the Digest (FirstPe315@aol.com) 12. RE: Martial Sport vs. Martial Art (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:17:29 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Sheree Goldstein Subject: [The_Dojang] Congratulate me and more... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am mostly a lurker on this list, though I've posted a couple of times. Please congratulate me, I am a newly minted TKD first dan, as of yesterday! But, I also have advice for all the dojo/dojang owners. When we do a black belt test, it's at a full weekend of seminars, where all our affiliated schools gather at a camp. This past Wednesday, two days before this much anticipated weekend, our dojang burned to the ground. Fortunately, some of our schools are within a half hour's drive from our location, so we can still train. Also, the school owner was already looking for new locations (landlord problems) and is currently negotiating a new lease. Unfortunately, though he had sufficient liability insurance (the fire was at 6am and no one was hurt), he had neither business interruption insurance NOR property (contents) insurance. He lost all his mats, all his equipment, three computers, our entire attendance system (not only did he not have a current backup, but if he did, it probably would have been on-site. Take your prior week's backup HOME!), he had just restocked the school's uniform inventory, I could go on and on. I'm sure that the schools will get together and lend him their oldest equipment and we'll get by once we have our new space. We'll train without mats for a while probably, but hopefully we will continue. Please don't let this happen to your school. Thanks, Sheree (no, I don't sell insurance) Goldstein, (Proud to write for the first time) TKD 1st Dan --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] young founders and sport - part 2 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:21:13 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Can you have a competition in Hapkido or Escrima/Arnis? Yes. Or course, WEKAF (World Eskrima Arnis Kali Federation) has been holding competitions for several years now. And in Hapkido we have the World Hapkido Games Federation (are they still in operation?). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Arnis makes debut in Manila SEA Games By Marc Anthony Reyes Inquirer News Service http://www.inq7.net/spo/2004/jan/29/spo_3-1.htm ARNIS, one of the country's indigenous sports, will be making its debut when the Southeast Asian Games returns to the country for the third time next year. The native martial art, which involves fighting between two players swinging two rattan sticks, received unanimous approval from the Philippine Olympic Committee general assembly on Tuesday. The other 21 events in the final list of the "priority sports" that will be presented to the SEA Games Federation for approval during its meeting here on March 5 are archery, athletics, aquatics (swimming, diving, water polo), billiards, boxing, basketball, baseball, bowling, chess, dancesport, golf, gymnastics, equestrian, fencing, judo, rowing, softball, taekwondo, triathlon, wrestling, wushu and traditional boat race. "We are very grateful that they considered our sport for the SEA Games," said Jose Dion Diaz, president of the Indigenous Games and Sports Savers Association of the Philippines. "This will serve as springboard for the launching of arnis in the global arena." Football, badminton and table tennis, which are regular events in previous SEAG, are expected to make it into the roster of sports during the SEAG Federation meeting, where 10 to 12 events are expected to be added to the 22 "priority sports." Dancesport, an event where organizers hope to deliver more gold medals for the country, will also be making its maiden appearance in the biennial meet. Golf and bowling, which produced five gold medals during the 2001 Kuala Lumpur edition, will be making a comeback next year after being taken out of the roster in Vietnam last year. Officials stressed that the priority sports were chosen based on their gold medal potential for the host country. However, the Philippines can put in no more than 20 medal events for each discipline. The ruling was based on the new SEAG guideline which limits the host country from padding the number of medals to more than five percent of the total golds. POC estimates there would be at least 400 gold medals that will be at stake in 2005. Also left out were volleyball, karatedo, shooting, board sailing, weightlifting, bodybuilding and squash, events where the country traditionally don't do well. "If other countries push for their inclusion then they just might make it to the final list of events," said POC secretary-general Romy Riba. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:03:10 -0600 From: "bmac2" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Congratulate me and more... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net CONGRATULATION SHEREE!!!!!!!! and THANK YOU for your insight in relating this story. These are truly things that some of us do not think about until they happen to us or someone else. I for one appreciate you for relaying this story. Kat ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Sheree Goldstein Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:17:29 -0500 >I am mostly a lurker on this list, though I've posted a couple of times. >Please congratulate me, I am a newly minted TKD first dan, as of yesterday! > >But, I also have advice for all the dojo/dojang owners. > >When we do a black belt test, it's at a full weekend of seminars, where all >our affiliated schools gather at a camp. >This past Wednesday, two days before this much anticipated weekend, our >dojang burned to the ground. >Fortunately, some of our schools are within a half hour's drive from our >location, so we can still train. Also, the school owner was already >looking for new locations (landlord problems) and is currently negotiating >a new lease. > >Unfortunately, though he had sufficient liability insurance (the fire was >at 6am and no one was hurt), he had neither business interruption insurance >NOR property (contents) insurance. >He lost all his mats, all his equipment, three computers, our entire >attendance system (not only did he not have a current backup, but if he >did, it probably would have been on-site. Take your prior week's backup >HOME!), he had just restocked the school's uniform inventory, I could go >on and on. > >I'm sure that the schools will get together and lend him their oldest >equipment and we'll get by once we have our new space. We'll train without >mats for a while probably, but hopefully we will continue. > >Please don't let this happen to your school. > >Thanks, >Sheree (no, I don't sell insurance) Goldstein, >(Proud to write for the first time) TKD 1st Dan >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:04:55 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Just_Having_Fun?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: "....Are you perhaps telling me my ancestors were a bit adventurous when spreading "goodwill":) ...." Of course, my original comment was tongue-in-cheek, but there is the actual historical side to what you say. When Hamel and his shipmates wrecked on the coast of Korea in the 1600-s they were taken to a village and held under close arrest. There was a Dutchman who had come even earlier to Korea (another shipwreck?) who had been serving the king as a supervisor of ship-building and introducing some of the Dutch ship- building methods, and served as an interpreter for the situation. Now we already know that the Portugese and the Dutch were instrumental in bringing firearms to Japan and Korea, and, of course, the Japanese were already using them when they invaded Korea in 1592. There was also an article in JAMA about the origins of the sai and the jitte as relating to the European daggers used by the Portugese and Spanish in the Phillipines and SE Asia. I share all of this just to point out that while my original comment was meant in jest there are more than a few cases where westerners might have introduced things to the Koreans/Japanese as well. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:23:14 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Having_Fun?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Lois: ".....It couldn't happen to a better role model! Let's start spreading the "true" history of the Dutch connection...." Its only fair that we make sure that the truth gets out. It is, for instance, a little known fact that the term "kuk sool won" is actually a corruption of the Dutch rendering for an address in the Red Light district of Amsterdam. I also have it on good account that kim-chi was actually introduced to the Koreans by the Dutch who, having no other gifts to present when they wrecked on Korean shores, fished out the spoiled vegetables from the sea-water and presented it as an exotic foodstuff from Europe. Amazing, but true!!! :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] young founders and sport - part 2 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Folks, > From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > > Can you have a competition in Hapkido or Escrima/Arnis? > > Yes. > > Or course, WEKAF (World Eskrima Arnis Kali Federation) has been holding > competitions for several years now. And in Hapkido we have the > World Hapkido Games Federation (are they still in operation?). Ok, as I thought there is competition in Arnis/Escrima and Hapkido. Going back to the question what makes a martial art or a martial sport? Rick Clark "It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep be" Virgil www.ao-denkou.kai.org --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:13:29 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] sport -part 3 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rick, On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 10:30 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > > No, I am not confusing legality with control. I have been involved > with a > bit of Hapkido and Modern Arnis, I have not heard of Ryu Te. Ryu Te is Taika Seiyu Oyata's public art referred to a RyuKyu Kempo until the 90's. You hold a 8th dan in RyuKyu Kempo don't you? RyuKyu Kempo is very generic term though, it's probably a different branch. > > When you (or I) use the term "legal" I am sure we don't mean "against > federal or state law" but rather against the rules set by a particular > school for given techniques and their application. Yes, lets leave the courts out of it. > > In Judo for example we can throw an individual with great speed and > they can > be thrown with a great deal of force. As Tori you "control" your > technique > so as to reduce the probability of injury to Uki. In joint locks you > control the amount of force you apply so as not to break the joint of > your > opponent. > > You have rules to protect your opponent, and you use control to > protect them > as well. > > Legal comes into play when you set rules for scoring some type of > point so > you can win a match or competition. If that where legality comes in, why ask , as you did in your first post? >> "It seems to me there must be some things that are "illegal" to >> practice with your partner or risk serious injury to them." Thats why I thought you were confusing legality and control. > > Can you have a competition in Hapkido or Escrima/Arnis? >> Now am I in the bash martial sport camp definitely not. > > I still don't understand what, in your mind, differentiates a martial > sport > from a martial art. > > Rick Clark Ok I think I see where you are driving this bus. Your view is " you can be a martial art but have competitions where techniques are limited for the safety of all parties involved. So where is the line?" Is that about right? Here's where I differentiate the two. Limiting your technique, as practice, to keep in line with the competition aspect. Judo never teaches bending a finger back to help facilitate escape from a choke. It is found in other JuJitsu styles, I'm sure it was a technique known to Kano but he choose not to include it in order to have safer competitions and practice. Another example - He did include leg locks in the kata but you never see them in randori. It's a known tech but not practiced. BJJ and Sambo, both sporting, seem to use them in competitions with relative safety, so maybe they aren't such deadly techniques. So... if you have limited your technique choice * , with purpose, you have moved into the realm of sport. (*techniques consistent with the philosophy of the art, to avoid silly arguments like "no flying sidekicks in Aikido - must be a sport then - huh" ) Brian - who is very tired of typing "techniques" --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:55:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Sport vs. Martial Art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Or course, WEKAF (World Eskrima Arnis Kali Federation) has been holding > > competitions for several years now. And in Hapkido we have the > > World Hapkido Games Federation (are they still in operation?). > > Ok, as I thought there is competition in Arnis/Escrima and Hapkido. > > Going back to the question what makes a martial art or a martial sport? Its focus, the way that it is predominately taught. e.g., Kukki-Taekwondo is predominately taught (esp in Korea) as a sport. Its primary focus is preparing for, and doing well at, competition. Same for Kodokan Judo. The primary focus of Hapkido and/or Eskrima is not generally for competition, save that which might occur in a dark alley. IMO Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:06:20 -0800 (PST) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My son and I have recently began training in WTF/USTU style tae kwon do. Last year my son was training at a dojang affiliated with the KATU organization. What advice can anyone give to aid me in sparring success. I have found that my taller opponents have a much larger advantage over me, I'm 5 feet tall, they including the instructor are all over 6 feet tall. My sons' former instructor is my size but I just can't afford him. Adding to my height disadvantage is my stiff body. Where can I find information specifically dealing with tactics and a good flexibility program or any other help you all think I need. Sincerly Fred __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:08:44 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] George's Interest in Weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George, I just thought I would throw my $0.02 worth in. I don't see a problem in studying weapons and adding them to your practice. I also don't see a problem with going elsewhere to learn them if necessary. A lot of instructors don't like that, but I think in many cases it may have to do with fear they may loose a student. Now on the other side. I don't think every gup or low dan needs to do this, because there is still plenty to work on within Tang Soo Do. A lot of students think once they have done something on a test and passed, it should be good enough period. And then, if they aren't learning new techniques fast enough, they become bored. I would feel better about most people branching out after they reach sam dan. Now with that being said, my cirriculum includes bong, dan gum and jang gum. I also teach some nunchaku, sai and yawara to some students. I know it is not Korean, and I always make this clear to the students. I don't see a problem(Bruce, I know you probably will). I also teach some basic ground work from my wrestling experience, along with throws. If you teach, just make sure you distinguish between Tang Soo Do and not Tang Soo Do. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 11 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:33:36 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Question for the Digest Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Has anybody heard of the "Corporation Korean Hapkido Federation" in Korea. Supposedly affiliated (loosely) with Yong-In University. Curious what you have heard about it if anything. Respectfully, Jeff --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Martial Sport vs. Martial Art Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:39:38 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > > > Or course, WEKAF (World Eskrima Arnis Kali Federation) has been > holding > > > competitions for several years now. And in Hapkido we have the > > > World Hapkido Games Federation (are they still in operation?). > > > > Ok, as I thought there is competition in Arnis/Escrima and Hapkido. > > > > Going back to the question what makes a martial art or a martial sport? > > Its focus, the way that it is predominately taught. > > e.g., Kukki-Taekwondo is predominately taught (esp in Korea) as a sport. > Its primary focus is preparing for, and doing well at, competition. Same > for Kodokan Judo. OK, I can buy into this somewhat. BUT, Judo for example has Kime-no-Kata and Goshin-jitsu which are self-defense based. I know from personal experience we practiced Judo from the point of view of a competitive sport but it was secondary. As we did not attend competitions very much (perhaps once a year and then it was just for fun). We worked on randori and self-defense applications. I should guess that there were a lot of clubs like ours back in the old days. Yes today there are a lot of Judo clubs and I would guess competition plays a larger role. But does that make it a sport and not a martial art? Or does the focus of the individual or instructors in a particular club make it a sport. OR can you say "Judo is a martial sport not a martial art"? I think there are a lot of Judoka that would disagree with this later proposition. As far as the KKW, I really don't have much experience with that so I don't want to put my foot in my mouth. But once again I would suspect the individual club, instructor, or student might have differing views on their system. My background in TKD comes from the 60's and while we did practice free sparing and did compete, I never considered it to be a martial sport, but as a martial art. We put a lot of emphasis on self-defense back then, and we did punch to the face, nor did we change that as the more modern form of TKD disallowed punches to the head. > > The primary focus of Hapkido and/or Eskrima is not generally for > competition, save that which might occur in a dark alley. But then there are some schools that have competition, correct? So if some styles have those who participate in their art as a sport then would all who practice that art be considered to be a sport? Or is this an individual assessment made by the person who is practicing? I really hope I am not beating a dead horse, but the assertion that Judo is a martial sport is something that just did not agree with. Yes, it does have elements of a sport, and many do use it as a sport. But is it more than a sport? I think so. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > IMO > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest