Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:10:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #61 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: sport -part 3 (Rick Clark) 2. FW: [The_Dojang]Judo/Yudo - Martial Sport vs. Martial Art (Bernard Maginnity) 3. RE: Martial Sport vs. Martial Art (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 4. Re: Martial Sport vs. Martial Art (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Question for the Digest (Ray Terry) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Weapons_stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. RE: FW: [The_Dojang]Judo/Yudo - Martial Sport vs. Martial Art (Rick Clark) 8. Re: Congratulate me and more... (luke rose) 9. 75 Down Blocks (Ray Terry) 10. Re: congratulate me (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 11. Re: sparring (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 12. Congratulations (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] sport -part 3 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:58:30 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi > Ryu Te is Taika Seiyu Oyata's public art referred to a RyuKyu Kempo > until the 90's. You hold a 8th dan in RyuKyu Kempo don't you? RyuKyu > Kempo is very generic term though, it's probably a different branch. I have not been affiliate with Oyata Sensei, however a number of my students have attended his seminars in the past. All have spoken highly of him. > > In Judo for example we can throw an individual with great speed and > > they can > > be thrown with a great deal of force. As Tori you "control" your > > technique > > so as to reduce the probability of injury to Uki. In joint locks you > > control the amount of force you apply so as not to break the joint of > > your > > opponent. > > > > You have rules to protect your opponent, and you use control to > > protect them > > as well. > > > > Legal comes into play when you set rules for scoring some type of > > point so > > you can win a match or competition. > > If that where legality comes in, why ask , as you did in your first > post? I think in my post it was rather open, trying to find out what others think rather than put my view forward to color the response. > > >> "It seems to me there must be some things that are "illegal" to > >> practice with your partner or risk serious injury to them." > > Thats why I thought you were confusing legality and control. Nope, in the sense I see a technique as "legal" or not is a point gaining or losing rule. In Judo for example a leg scissor is an "illegal" throw for competition but it is a technique that is practiced in the dojo. > > > > > Can you have a competition in Hapkido or Escrima/Arnis? > >> Now am I in the bash martial sport camp definitely not. > > > > I still don't understand what, in your mind, differentiates a martial > > sport > > from a martial art. > > > > Rick Clark > > > Ok I think I see where you are driving this bus. Your view is " you > can be a martial art but have competitions where techniques are > limited for the safety of all parties involved. So where is the line?" > Is that about right? > > Here's where I differentiate the two. Limiting your technique, as > practice, to keep in line with the competition aspect. Judo never > teaches bending a finger back to help facilitate escape from a choke. > It is found in other JuJitsu styles, I'm sure it was a technique known > to Kano but he choose not to include it in order to have safer > competitions and practice. Ok this is a clear example. You would learn how to bend a finger in a Judo class for self-defense but you would not use it in competition. To go one step further Judo does teach kicks and punches in their syllabus, but it is not something that is used in competition. Yet it is found in the Kata. > > Another example - He did include leg locks in the kata but you never > see them in randori. It's a known tech but not practiced. BJJ and > Sambo, both sporting, seem to use them in competitions with relative > safety, so maybe they aren't such deadly techniques. We are getting at the same thing here, in a way. Judo has changed since the 1960's and it's inclusion in the Olympics. Just as TKD has changed as it gained admittance into the Olympics. BUT that does not make Judo as a whole a martial sport - at least in MHO. > > So... if you have limited your technique choice * , with purpose, you > have moved into the realm of sport. But then the problem I see with this is no matter which martial art you practice you have limited your techniques in some respect due to the stylistic nature of the modern arts. Consider all of the various responses to an attack to the face with a punch. There are many systems of martial arts and they have various responses (you can think of hundreds of them). But of the empty hand styles of martial arts do you consider to strike the arm with a weapon, or a weapon of opportunity? If you do that could you be stepping outside the realm of the art you are practicing? For example in what I think of as old school TKD we practiced as a sport, self-defense, physical, and mental development. We did not practice the use of weapons (other than a knife) as part of the syllabus of TKD. Yet we knew of the weapons of China and Okinawa but they were not part of TKD. So were we as limited as in Judo that does not use a finger lock as a release? > > (*techniques consistent with the philosophy of the art, to avoid silly > arguments like "no flying sidekicks in Aikido - must be a sport then - > huh" ) I have heard that Aikido does not use kicks, yet I have a video of Shioda Sensei dropping Uki with a kick to the Spleen point just above the ankle bone on the inside of the leg. > > Brian - who is very tired of typing "techniques" Hummm Brian is the technique a sport or self-defense? :-) Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:26:10 +1100 From: "Bernard Maginnity" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] FW: [The_Dojang]Judo/Yudo - Martial Sport vs. Martial Art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can someone help me out, and excuse my ignorance for asking but, wasn't Kano's Judo originally a lot broader in its technique base and not so sport oriented? >From my recollections it had leg locks, finger techniques etc as are seen in Korean Yudo (refer to Dr Kimm). And wasn't Korean Yudo recognised a few years ago by some governing body in Japan to be upholding the traditional Judo techniques and not the sport? I would appreciate if someone could clear this up for me, especially if I am way off track. Kind regards Bernie Maginnity NOTICE The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. Mission Australia has implemented anti-virus software, and whilst all care is taken, it is the recipient's responsibility to ensure that any attachments are scanned for viruses prior to use. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Martial Sport vs. Martial Art Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:56:21 -0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net please bear in mind that mankind has been competing in combative sports since records began. the Spartan men trained nearly as soon as they could walk. and of course the original Olympics are a dead give-away. all the best warriors came to the central games to see who could wrestle or box best. or throw the discus or javelin furthest. in the case of the gladiators the crowds may have thought of it as sport, but for the competitors I'm sure it wasn't! just imagine how hard they had to train and there mental focus. I have played chess for a long time and had the chance to play at a high standard. some people even call it sport. I have been doing TKD for five months now. Chatarunga is the original name for chess which means game of war. it is in my opinion a martial art like any other.. one mans sport is another man's art. e.g. Muhammad Ali = artist. I cannot think of another with such grace but there are, I'm sure those who will see that in many ways the practitioner will create art. train hard stay sharp. you may need it some day. I know that I have used my chess skills in so many ways! -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: 09 February 2004 21:55 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Sport vs. Martial Art > > Or course, WEKAF (World Eskrima Arnis Kali Federation) has been holding > > competitions for several years now. And in Hapkido we have the > > World Hapkido Games Federation (are they still in operation?). > > Ok, as I thought there is competition in Arnis/Escrima and Hapkido. > > Going back to the question what makes a martial art or a martial sport? Its focus, the way that it is predominately taught. e.g., Kukki-Taekwondo is predominately taught (esp in Korea) as a sport. Its primary focus is preparing for, and doing well at, competition. Same for Kodokan Judo. The primary focus of Hapkido and/or Eskrima is not generally for competition, save that which might occur in a dark alley. IMO Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the number given, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Sport vs. Martial Art To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:21:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > OK, I can buy into this somewhat. BUT, Judo for example has Kime-no-Kata > and Goshin-jitsu which are self-defense based. I know from personal > experience we practiced Judo from the point of view of a competitive sport > but it was secondary. As we did not attend competitions very much (perhaps > once a year and then it was just for fun). We worked on randori and > self-defense applications. I should guess that there were a lot of clubs > like ours back in the old days. Yes today there are a lot of Judo clubs and > I would guess competition plays a larger role. But does that make it a > sport and not a martial art? Or does the focus of the individual or > instructors in a particular club make it a sport. OR can you say "Judo is a > martial sport not a martial art"? In the case of Judo and Kukki-Taekwondo (aka Korean Taekwondo) it probably comes down to politics. Both are organized as sports and are thought of as sports in Japan and Korea, respectively. High school wrestling experience can really help someone that finds themself in a self-defense situation, but wrestling is still a sport. Bottom line to me... sport training comes in very handy when the feces hits the oscillator. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Question for the Digest To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:10:41 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Has anybody heard of the "Corporation Korean Hapkido Federation" in Korea. > Supposedly affiliated (loosely) with Yong-In University. I don't know much about them, but their URL is http://www.koreahapkido.tv. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:35:53 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Weapons_stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Danny: "...... I know it is not Korean, and I always make this clear to the students. I don't see a problem(Bruce, I know you probably will)....." Nope. Not from me. Not as long as there is that little disclaimer you slipped in there. My comments are reserved for people who "overlook" making things clear to the students and either represent foreign material as Korean or make like it doesn't matter one way or the other. For my part, THEN we have a problem. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] FW: [The_Dojang]Judo/Yudo - Martial Sport vs. Martial Art Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:46:28 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bernie, > From: Bernard Maginnity [mailto:MaginnityB@missionaustralia.com.au] > > Can someone help me out, and excuse my ignorance for asking but, wasn't > Kano's Judo originally a lot broader in its technique base and not so > sport oriented? I would agree that this is the case. Consider that the Kodokan gained it's reputation as the top martial art by beating Ju-jitsu folks at a tournament organized by the Police. I would imagine there were rules for the tournament, but I can't recall ever reading what they were. Kano had a ringer in the Kodokan group (can't recall his name of the top of my head) who won the tie breaker with a technique called Yama-arashi. If my memory is correct he was from a Daito-Ryu school. I am rather confident that the techniques used at that match, as a part of Kodokan Judo, are not the same techniques you might find in common use today. > > From my recollections it had leg locks, finger techniques etc as are > seen in Korean Yudo (refer to Dr Kimm). And wasn't Korean Yudo > recognised a few years ago by some governing body in Japan to be > upholding the traditional Judo techniques and not the sport? I really don't know about the history of Yudo, but I have assumed over the years that Yudo was the Korean pronunciation of Judo, having been taught to the Koreans during the occupation. > > I would appreciate if someone could clear this up for me, especially if > I am way off track. I think there has been an evolution of Judo over the years, just as there has been an evolution of TKD into the KKW version of the art. Just as there are those who do not follow the KKW version of TKD I would expect there are Judo groups out there that have not followed the more modern version. > Kind regards > > Bernie Maginnity Rick Clark "It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep be" Virgil www.ao-denkou.kai.org --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Congratulate me and more... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Sheree, I loved to hear that you recieved your first dan on the eighth. A HUGE congradulations! I'm happy that you are excited. Going through the colored belts was an adventure but after the black belt it is a whole new world. Enjoy exploring it! I'm also a school owner and your info was well appreciated. Thank you for sharring. Sincerly, Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:38:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] 75 Down Blocks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Rick Clark > "It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep be" > Virgil > www.ao-denkou.kai.org Just a quick mention that Rick is the author of the recent book 75 Down Blocks, Refining Karte Technique. Tuttle Publishing, 2003. An interesting look at different ways to employ the down block movement. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:30:39 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: congratulate me Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I am mostly a lurker on this list, though I've posted a couple of times. Please congratulate me, I am a newly minted TKD first dan, as of yesterday!" congrats, sheree... feels wonderful, doesnt it? :) thanks for the advice. certainly good stuff. y'know, we had a school burn to the ground round here a few months ago. tragic. considering what many school owners make, that could really put 'em outta business if they're not insured. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:44:21 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "What advice can anyone give to aid me in sparring success. I have found that my taller opponents have a much larger advantage over me, I'm 5 feet tall, they including the instructor are all over 6 feet tall." oh, goody...one for me ;). greetings from another five footer and change. tall folk, as funny looking as they are, would be writhing on the floor in pain if shin kicks were legal. alas, this is not a legal technique in the sport end of our art. so, we vertically challenged folk, as beautiful as we are, must challenge our heathen goliath opponents by doing the following: -choke 'em up. if you're in close, they can't lift those big meaty ham hocks to kick at you. -move in and out of range. if you stay in their kicking range, they can kick you senseless. get in. do your business. get out. -avoid being linear. small folk can often have an agility advantage. use it. make them move around by using 45 degree angle attacks, whether following the angled steps with straight kicks or back kicks. -find really nicely padded headgear...or learn to block your head or keep it out of harm's way. -have fun. take care, melinda (who has probably offended all folks in the nose bleed section ;)) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:53:55 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Congratulations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sheree writes: > Please congratulate me, I am a newly minted TKD first dan, as of > yesterday! Hello Sheree. congratulations on your promotion, and I hope you will stay out of the lurking mode:) I am sorry to hear about your Instructor's loss. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest