Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 05:56:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #62 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Welcome (Charles Richards) 2. Competition (Rudy Timmerman) 3. bruce lee (Eddie Urbistondo) 4. The Dutch connection. (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Re: bruce lee (Ray Terry) 6. Hapkido Sport (J.R. West) 7. grapevine-klaas (Brian Beach) 8. sport vs art (Brian Beach) 9. Having Fun (Lois Knorr) 10. RE: sparring (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 11. Re: Sparring (freddie bishop) (luke rose) 12. RE: 75 Down Blocks (Rick Clark) 13. RE: Re: Weapons stuff (Rick Clark) 14. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Art_vs_sport?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:55:11 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Sheree (no, I don't sell insurance) Goldstein, (Proud to write for the first time) TKD 1st Dan" Welcome out of lurk mode. Keep up the good work. I'll be looking forward to the day when you have a VERY soft gray belt :-) You give some pretty wise advise. Right now the contents value inside my school is less than the deductable would be, and attendance and other computer stuff is at the house, but it wouldn't hurt to take a copy of my backup CD to the dayjob office once a month, yes:-) Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:57:43 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Competition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > And in Hapkido we have the > World Hapkido Games Federation (are they still in operation?). I am not sure about the WHGF, but I do know that GM Seo has a bi-annual international Hap Ki Do competition in Korea. Last time out, I truly enjoyed it, and my student Lorne (also a DDer) brought home a bronze. There is an event planned for April of this year. Interested folks could contact KJN Sara Seo for more info. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:06:56 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] bruce lee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Lee learned about 60% of the Wing Chun. In most traditional chinese martial arts, the only way to learn the higher levels of a system is to become an "enter the gate student". The only students that learn all of their Master's knowledge are the ones being accepted as disciples. Bruce Lee was not taught any of the higher levels. Because of that, he then incorporated Judo, fencing, Taekwondo kicks, Western boxing and his existing knowledge of Wing Chun. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:07:49 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Dutch connection. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > When Hamel and his shipmates > wrecked on the coast of Korea in the 1600-s they were taken to a > village > and held under close arrest. There was a Dutchman who had come even > earlier to Korea (another shipwreck?) Hello Bruce: Seems like they sailed boats as well as I drive:) Don't know anything about the RL district in Amsterdam, but I had my first paper route in the one in The Hague as a youngster. You might say I seen "the light" at an early age:) All kidding aside, thanks for the info on Hamel. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] bruce lee To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:12:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Bruce Lee learned about 60% of the Wing Chun. He learned the first two WC sets, but not the third set (Bil Jee). After Bil Jee comes the 100 wooden dummy techniques, leg training, stick set and knife set. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:15:25 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While at the DaeHan KiDoHwe in Seoul in 2000, my students and I were being lectured on the "rules" of a Hapkido competition. To see how well we understood these rules, the Master In charge asked me to pick two of my students out of the crowd to entertain everyone. I chose Dr. Tavassoli, 4th dan and Matt Hodges, 3rd dan, and after about 30 seconds the "contest" was stopped because our host was afraid that one of these two would kill the other. Believe me when I say that Hapkido, as I teach it, is not very suitable for competitive events, but I think that the individual instructor makes more of a difference than the style in whether or not the art that they teach is a sport or not....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:20:37 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] grapevine-klaas Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Somewhere during the late sixties/early seventies the president of a > big company in Korea (Daewoo?) wanted to do business with an Arab > prince. It was hard to actually get in touch, but because one of the > bodyguards was a Korean hapkido practioner he did get in touch with > them, and managed to make a lot of money. The bodyguard was Cho Sung Ho. He was in Sudan. The company was Daewoo. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:58:25 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] sport vs art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 10:10 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > But then the problem I see with this is no matter which martial art you > practice you have limited your techniques in some respect due to the > stylistic nature of the modern arts. Consider all of the various > responses > to an attack to the face with a punch. There are many systems of > martial > arts and they have various responses (you can think of hundreds of > them). > But of the empty hand styles of martial arts do you consider to strike > the > arm with a weapon, or a weapon of opportunity? If you do that could > you be > stepping outside the realm of the art you are practicing? > > For example in what I think of as old school TKD we practiced as a > sport, > self-defense, physical, and mental development. We did not practice > the use > of weapons (other than a knife) as part of the syllabus of TKD. Yet > we knew > of the weapons of China and Okinawa but they were not part of TKD. So > were > we as limited as in Judo that does not use a finger lock as a release? grrr- typing technique again I think its in the context of the art - TKD has kicks but low kicks are not used as the art is in its current form. Its muddy water to be sure. The confusion lies (imho) in the fact that the "Do" arts were derived from the "juitsu" arts and the sports from both. So, you are bound to have some residual techniques. Also we are talking about art not science. Art is open to interpretation. So for sport, there is a cross over at some point. "we are aware of these techniques, but for the sake of competition we choose not practice them as part of our preparation" It's a narrower focus. Western fencing for example, there were/are techniques, grappling for example, that are not part of the sport as we know it today. So as a concession you could say Judo and TKD are in process of evolving into the sport realm. Brian - "if the damn thing won't get up, beat it some more" :) --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:02:03 -0500 (EST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Having Fun Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce said: "Its only fair that we make sure that the truth gets out. It is, for instance, a little known fact that the term "kuk sool won" is actually a corruption of the Dutch rendering for an address in the Red Light district of Amsterdam..." Well Rudy, Should we spread the "whole" truth -- or just letting sleeping ... er ... "ladies" lie? :D Laughing Lois --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 10 From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] sparring Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:06:01 -0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have found pilates a very good way to lengthen muscle and gain flexibility and balance. ballet dancers use the method. I do the stretching at home and during the class as it fits in and is very similar to the callistetics that we do I hope this helps. Innae! -----Original Message----- From: freddie bishop [mailto:mauler681@yahoo.com] Sent: 09 February 2004 22:06 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] sparring My son and I have recently began training in WTF/USTU style tae kwon do. Last year my son was training at a dojang affiliated with the KATU organization. What advice can anyone give to aid me in sparring success. I have found that my taller opponents have a much larger advantage over me, I'm 5 feet tall, they including the instructor are all over 6 feet tall. My sons' former instructor is my size but I just can't afford him. Adding to my height disadvantage is my stiff body. Where can I find information specifically dealing with tactics and a good flexibility program or any other help you all think I need. Sincerly Fred __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the number given, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:52:35 -0800 (PST) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sparring (freddie bishop) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Freddie, I have trained in W.T.F. sparring for a few years. I'm at least ten or eleven inches taller than you. However, I had a student of mine that was about your height. He was excellent at jumping and flying kicks. He was a real challenge for me. He was also quite flexible. IMHO, you are going to need flexibility and timing. No matter how fast or powerful a person is, if you are ahead in the timing area you will win. A technique that I often used with people who where stronger and bigger than me was what I called "jamming". When I could read that he or she was coming in an offensive movement I would step in and not using my arms (like a push or shove) but just the body he would bump in to me and get them off balance. Then, I would take advantage and take the offensive. Learn to read your opponent and draw them out to do what you want them to do. It is like a game of chess. It is all in the head. That is the beautiful part of sport training. It makes you strategically think instead of react with survival intuition. I hope this doesn't offend all the "sport to martial art" talk thats been on the site as of late. As someone else already said try using a lot of lateral movement. Work on foot-work and superior balance in that foot-work. If you can't beat them, out class them in there weak points. Even more than they out class you in yours. I have a lot of other ideas. If you want more just ask. I'd be happy to share them with you. Keep looking up but keep your chin down(HA, HA) Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 75 Down Blocks Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:39:26 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > Just a quick mention that Rick is the author of the recent book 75 Down > Blocks, Refining Karte Technique. Tuttle Publishing, 2003. > > An interesting look at different ways to employ the down block movement. Thanks for the plug Ray :-) The book's concept was bit funny; I was teaching and going over various applications in a class. One of my students had noticed that a number of the techniques were from the "down block", and asked how many applications I had for that technique. I told him I did not really know so we started to go through the applications and keeping track. At one point I joked I should write a book "101 down blocks" (thinking of Disney's 101 Dalmatians). While I was talking to my editor at Tuttle about my other book "Pressure Point Fighting" I was joking about the title and much to my surprise he thought it was a good idea. Anyway I drew up a proposal and it was accepted, but we settled on 75 applications. There are a couple of examples on my web site from the book, as well as a few articles I have written. I believe on www.Amazon.com there have a few pages of my books available for people to look at as well. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Weapons stuff Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:58:06 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] > Dear Danny: > > "...... I know it is not Korean, and I always make this clear to the > students. I don't see a problem(Bruce, I know you probably will)....." > > Nope. Not from me. Not as long as there is that little disclaimer you > slipped in there. My comments are reserved for people who "overlook" > making things clear to the students and either represent foreign material > as Korean or make like it doesn't matter one way or the other. For my > part, THEN we have a problem. FWIW. > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce I am curious about this. At what point in time do techniques become Korean? >From all available information it seems early TKD was a Korean version of Shotokan Karate. Clearly the forms of the early Kwan were those taught by Gichin Funakoshi. Later the Koreans evolved several different sets of forms to give them more of a Korean feel. Hapkido is said to have been derived in large part from Daito-Ryu and I believe Tang Soo Do. So when does the foreign material become that of the host country? Rick Clark "It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep be" Virgil www.ao-denkou.kai.org --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:29:58 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Art_vs_sport?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick: ".....But then the problem I see with this is no matter which martial art you practice you have limited your techniques in some respect due to the stylistic nature of the modern arts. Consider all of the various responses to an attack to the face with a punch. ..........." To my way of thinking ANYTIME one moderates their technique in deference to the safety of a partner that person has stepped from combat into sport. As I teach my students, conflicts are rarely fights but more often "challenges" in which noone really intends to do damage. There are times in negotiating with a violent threat that the negotiator will appeal the the general position of most human beings that "you dodn't really want to hurt anyone, do you?". A sport encourages a conflict for a duration so as to identify the competence of one person compared to another. In a true fight one seeks to end the fight by whatever means as quickly as possible. There is also the matter of "total commitment" wherein what might have been a "challenge" actually slips across the line into a "fight". You will know such occasions for the reports afterwards. Such lines as "it took five guys to hold him down" or "I don't remember anything--- all I saw was red" or "the guy came at me like a freight train" are characteristic of actual fights. As regards training, we must, out of respect for our partners show some restraint in our practice. The trick is to work as closely to pushing the edge of the reality envelope as possible. To this end partners learn "breakfalls in order to go-with the technique and allow the person executing the technique to put as much authority into it as possible. There will always be that bit of restraint though (as well there should be) and the common wisdom is that the adrenalin rush of combat will cancel this retraint out. Who knows? Maybe--- maybe not. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest