Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:47:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #63 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Master Gommels (Dewitt, Garrett) 2. RE: Re:Art vs sport (Rick Clark) 3. RE: sport vs art (Rick Clark) 4. Re: (Michael Whalen) 5. Re: Question for the Digest (ABurrese@aol.com) 6. System vs Art vs Sport (Michael Rowe) 7. Truth (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Re: sparring (PhilosTheoryB@aol.com) 9. Re: System vs Art vs Sport (Jeremy Anderson) 10. Re: Hapkido Sport (DPRYGA) 11. Martial Sport vs. Martial Art - Part One (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:33:19 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Gommels Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Frank Clay wrote: A word on Pan Gong Song... He was originally Mi Yi's teacher, and Fred Gommels was a KMAIA member. Once Fred and Song both figured out what was going on, they jetted. Fred is a good man, and served as the principal of a Christian school. They do not come much more conservative or honorable. Pan Gong Song disowned the Hackworth's. I also know Master Fred Gommels and Grandmaster Pan Gon Song. I have known Master Gommels and have been able to train with him for several years now. It never concerned me about Master Gommels "backing." When I first met Master Gommels, I knew intuitively that he was NOT happy with the KMAIA. Whatever his reasons, they are his own and although he and I have conversed on these issues, I have never crossed the line into Master Gommels' personal life or concerns about the KMAIA. Master Gommels and Grandmaster Pan Gon Song have always been up front, honest, men of integrity and great character. Master Clay said it all, "They do not come much more conservative or honorable." Thank You Master Garrett DeWitt DE WITTS MARTIAL ARTS Korean Chung Do Kwan NKMAA Member Kong Shin Bup(TM) Hap Ki Do --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Art vs sport Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:59:05 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce, > From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] > Dear Rick: > > ".....But then the problem I see with this is no matter which martial art > you > practice you have limited your techniques in some respect due to the > stylistic nature of the modern arts. Consider all of the various > responses > to an attack to the face with a punch. ..........." > > To my way of thinking ANYTIME one moderates their technique in deference > to the safety of a partner that person has stepped from combat into sport. Ok a new term has been added to the mix, you have now added combat. I think the original question was something like: "what differentiates martial arts from a martial sport". I should expect even 400 years ago instructors were teaching students to moderate a technique during practice so as not to require vast numbers of students that would take time to recover from injury due to the application of techniques. > Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] sport vs art Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Brian, > From: Brian Beach [mailto:brian.beach@verizon.net] > grrr- typing technique again :-) That's the problem with being on a mailing list and responding to a post or posting a question :-) > > I think its in the context of the art - TKD has kicks but low kicks are > not used as the art is in its current form. Emmmmmmm - that may not be completely correct. In particular schools or perhaps in KKW, or perhaps various associations low kicks may not be used a lot, or even taught. But I am sure there are TKD people out there that do practice and teach low kicks. > Its muddy water to be sure. > The confusion lies (imho) in the fact that the "Do" arts were derived > from the "juitsu" arts and the sports from both. Ok no problem here about the "Do" arts coming from the "Jitsu" stuff as a 'general' statement. But if you go by the party line - Tae Kwon Do was developed from Tae Kyun, Kwon Bup, Tang Soo . . . . . so I guess strictly speaking these are not "Jitsu" as "Jitsu" is Japanese in origin. And if you chose to believe that TKD came from these roots then the "Do" in TKD did not come from "Jitsu". I know this gets to be word games but in a way being a bit more precise can make a topic a bit less muddied. > So, you are bound to > have some residual techniques. Also we are talking about art not > science. Art is open to interpretation. So for sport, there is a cross > over at some point. "we are aware of these techniques, but for the sake > of competition we choose not practice them as part of our preparation" Once again I get back to a point I made a few posts back. All of the modern arts at least as far as I can see make some kind of decision on the body of techniques that will be used in the art. All of the arts make a conscious decision to control techniques to avoid injury in practice. I really don't know of any style that does not do so. > It's a narrower focus. Western fencing for example, there were/are > techniques, grappling for example, that are not part of the sport as we > know it today. So as a concession you could say Judo and TKD are in > process of evolving into the sport realm. Perhaps you might say that some aspects of Judo and TKD are developing more sporting aspects. But to say that Judo or TKD is a martial sport and it is not a martial art may be argued by some in those arts. > > Brian - "if the damn thing won't get up, beat it some more" :) Rick Clark www.ao-denko-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:03:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >It is, for instance, a little known fact that the term "kuk sool won" is >actually a corruption of the Dutch rendering for an address in the Red >Light district of Amsterdam..." WOW, that's what I like about the DD. You learn something interesting and new every day. After serious thought (and consulting extensively with my psychic) I know now that I must make this journey to find the roots of my art and learn some new techniques. Yes, it could get a little dirty and possibly painful at times but feel that I am capable of the exhausting task at hand. Will send pic's. micheal whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:16:54 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Question for the Digest Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Has anybody heard of the "Corporation Korean Hapkido Federation" in Korea. > Supposedly affiliated (loosely) with Yong-In University. >>I don't know much about them, but their URL is >>http://www.koreahapkido.tv. This is the federation I will be affiliated with. As many know, I have rank from the KHF with GM Oh Se-lim president. However, I will now be getting rank under this newer federation rather than the KHF I have been under. There is one primary reason for this. My instructors in Korea have changed to this new organization. So before someone can say, this organization is sub standard, etc. as some in the MA communities like to do, note that my instructors are 7th and 4th dan under the KHF and now have changed. The president of this newer KHF is also president of a Chiropractic organization in Korea. Kwanjangnim Kim, 7th dan KHF, has also been a chiropractor for many years (as I've posted about him before, so he has know GM Park a long time too) There were various reasons that they changed organizations, and therefore I will follow my instructors and receive the rank they give me, no matter what the organization. As I have said many times, to me, HKD and MA in general is about people, not about certificates or organizations. One reason organizations are important in Korea is to be recognized by the government. Someone who wants to be a police officer for instance, needs to have rank from one of the recognized organizations. This new KHF is recognized, so dan rank from there will be the same as the others that are recognized for such activities and occupations. I think my instructor said there were five organizations now out of many more that have that recognition, not just one. As I learn more, I will let people know more. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:52:48 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] System vs Art vs Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just my opinion: If the object is to survive then it is a system If the object is to win then it is a sport If the object is to improve overall life then it is an art. Michael Rowe "In the middle of a difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein mp_rowe@cox.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:00:25 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Truth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lois writes > Should we spread the "whole" truth -- or just letting sleeping ... er > ... "ladies" lie? :D I think the last option is the best (at my age:). Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:13:43 -0500 From: PhilosTheoryB@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a middleweight senior competitor at the national level and i know what you mean because I am 5'11 and i fight people who are usual 6'3 6'4.You have to learn how to cut off the sides of the rings.If you try to fight an taller opponent head on,they will cut kick you,or ax kick you and knock you down.I throw alot of nadabans because a spin confuses a taller guy.My friend Arnell is very good at throwing varies spins to get his offensive tactics across.I like to do side step and double.That way,if you hit with the wrong side,or his back side the double will hit his open side.Either way you have to be able to move diagonally.We shorter guys have to be able to take what we can get.Also,us have to use a tallers guys cockiness against him.For instance,if you break his distance hes gonna have it in his head he can kick you.So what I do,I step in on purpose,bait him and let him miss,and double the hell out of him.Or just take the one.A score is a score.Also,work on hitting him just above the belt.You want the quickest distance to score and that is basically the quickest.Fast kicks at angle are good 2.But,only if you can hit and get out of the way which you can do by throwing ur shoulder the direction of the leg you kicked with if that makes sense.You absolutely need ring management.No if ands or buts,its a definete for small frys like us. I hope this helps. Brian --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:17:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] System vs Art vs Sport To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well put. I usually make the distinction between "sport," "practical," and "artistic" martial arts. But despite the different labels, our distinctions seem to be the same. And I'd like to add that the three objects are not mutually exclusive. Reducing taekwondo or judo or any other art is a falacy. I've trained with sport taekwondo schools and practical taekwondo schools. I've trained with sport judo schools and artistic judo schools. And all this training improves my martial art. Saying any martial art is "just a sport" seems to indicate a prejudice towards that art and says more about the person speaking than the art itself. By the way, I don't think I've ever introduced myself. My name is Jeremy Anderson and I've been training in various martial arts (mostly taekwondo, but also plenty of judo, some hapkido and weaponry) for only twelve years now. Jeremy Anderson. --- Michael Rowe wrote: > Just my opinion: > > If the object is to survive then it is a system > > If the object is to win then it is a sport > > If the object is to improve overall life then it is an art. > > Michael Rowe > "In the middle of a difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein > mp_rowe@cox.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:11:31 -0600 From: DPRYGA To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net on 2/10/04 7:56 AM, Master West wrote: > Hapkido Sport > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > While at the DaeHan KiDoHwe in Seoul in 2000, my students and I were being > lectured on the "rules" of a Hapkido competition. To see how well we > understood these rules, the Master In charge asked me to pick two of my > students out of the crowd to entertain everyone. I chose Dr. Tavassoli, 4th > dan and Matt Hodges, 3rd dan, and after about 30 seconds the "contest" was > stopped because our host was afraid that one of these two would kill the > other. Believe me when I say that Hapkido, as I teach it, is not very > suitable for competitive events, but I think that the individual instructor > makes more of a difference than the style in whether or not the art that they > teach is a sport or not....J. R. West www.hapkido.com I can remember this like it was yesterday.... mainly the looks on our hosts faces (:o)..... it was classic. On another matter, we have scheduled a Hapkido clinic with Master West and crew here in Wisconsin for May 1, 2004. This year we guarantee all the Bratwurst, cheesecurds and Hapkido you can stand. Feel free to contact myself or Master West for any details..........Dave Pryga www.cwmai.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:04:13 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Sport vs. Martial Art - Part One Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Warning: rant to follow. There's much wisdom in this very short paragraph of Ray's. Unfortunately, most people who read it will ignore it. It all goes back to that "aliveness" thing that I preach about from time-to-time, and aliveness is too bitter a pill for most to swallow (per my experience). It's much easier to throw around my cooperative buddies all the time under the premise that if they didn't "go with it" they would have broken 15 bones and ruptured 2 major organs due to my "dangerous technique". Whatever... I know people love to divide martial activity into "sport" camps, and "art" camps. Per my own personal experience, it is an artificial distinction most often used as a strawman for those who want to push the "superiority" of their particular approach. The divide doesn't really exist (they are mostly one and the same, although most won't allow themselves to believe it). IMHO, "sport" (at its higher levels) embodies the very characteristics that supposedly only exist within the field of "art" (peak experience, adaptive creativity, self-expression, synthesis of methods, etc.) On the other side of the coin, "art" is at its most spectacular peak when brought into being by those things that can most often be found within the realm of "sport" (the crucible of competition, the necessity to meet or exceed objective standards, overcoming resistance, problem solving, cooperative effort, etc.). Personally, my present day martial activities lean toward those things that most folks in the martial arts community would define as "sport". You won't find me pretending to eagle-claw my over-cooperative "opponent" to death as they strike a dramatic pose in response to their easily countered, half-assed attack. Neither will you find me wasting my hours debating the relative merits of "thrusting vs slashing", or some such eternal subject of mental masturbation favored by those who long to be something that they have neither the ability or societal permission to become (read: some black-clad, knife-wielding, urban commando). At any rate, "sport" is a good thing, IMHO. No matter how much the "killa karate commandos" want to look down their nose at it, there is a value to the activity that transcends the physical techniques that are being employed. For me, it's not an argument of "eye gouges" versus "side kicks", or "breaking someone's neck" versus "tapping them with an arm bar". The heart of the question is this...what kind of a crucible do you want to place yourself in? Do you really think you're going to find yourself (much less better yourself) in the antiseptic atmosphere of 100% cooperative engagement? What "art" will you find (much less create) when the outcome is never in doubt (Jimmy grabs my sleeve, Jimmy goes flying, repeat, go home). These are simple questions, but their answers lie under VERY complex layers of context, utility, and personal psychology. It's an interesting debate, and one that I could talk about for a long time. Instead, I'll share my experience, and describe some of those things that I've observed and experienced from "martial sport" that transcend and carry over to activities far beyond the mat. This is the crucible that I have found. But, that will have to wait for part 2... CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest