Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:56:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #65 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Sad News (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Sport vs. Martial Art (Klaas Barends) 3. AAU Rules and Regs (Farral, Kim) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Art_vs_Sport?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Quests (rich hodder) 6. Re: Master Gommels (Dewitt, Garrett) 7. Certification (Frank Clay) 8. Definition of Sport (Stovall, Craig) 9. As Morphous said (Dennis McHenry) 10. Les Connard-Florida Seminar (michael tomlinson) 11. Forms - The holy grail (=?iso-8859-1?q?SlaneSavage?=) 12. RE: Forms - The holy grail (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:49:55 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sad News Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just received a message from Master Sara Seo that the eldest uncle, GM Seo In Suk, passed away a few days ago. He was a fine martial artist and a great gentleman to me. I offer my most profound condolences to the Seo family. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:36:53 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sport vs. Martial Art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > What got me on this thread was the assertion that Judo was a sport not a > martial art (I forget who posted that). That was me, and I did it on purpose. The purpose was to get a discussing going about when does a martial art turn into a sport (and maybe vice versa). My guess would be that you can train Judo (and Taekwon-do, karate, etc.) both as a sport and as a martial art. However you often see the (and I think this is most visible in Judo) that the martial arts side doesn't get any attention. Thus turning Judo into a sport for about 99% of the time. -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:01:01 -0500 From: "Farral, Kim" To: "Dojang " Subject: [The_Dojang] AAU Rules and Regs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung... I have been reviewing he Rules and Regulations for AAU Sparring...Could someone please explain to me the significance of Red and ONLY Red Hand and Foot Safety Gear?...I was unaware that colour had any influence on scoring or the outcome of a match...but it does force people who already have equipment of their choice and liking to purchase MORE equipment NOT of their choice or liking... Why no padding under or around the chin on headgear?...Does that offer TOO much protection? If anyone has any logical and rational explanations...I would be happy to read them... Pil Seung... Kim G. Farral Staff Mechanical Engineer ITT Industries 1919 West Cook Road P.O. Box 3700 Ft. Wayne, Indiana 46801-3700 Phone: (260) 451-6868 Fax: (260) 451-6206 Mobile: (260) 740-7134 ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:16:01 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Art_vs_Sport?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick: "....... When I was in Korea back in 1969 and 1970 the Hapkido I encountered did not have any competition that I was aware of, but it may have been there. So because there is a sport element in Hapkido is it a martial art or is it a sport? From my experience I would class Hapkido as a martial art......" Yes--- good call. The Hapkido arts ARE martial arts. That doesn't mean that people won't bend them to a particular application as a sport, commercial venture, child day-care, whatever,. More correctly the Hapkido arts are a Mu-Do or a "martial way" in which a variety of activities are bound together by common biomechanics, philosophies and goals. CAN these activities be varied into sport applications? Well, there are always people making the effort. I have seen folks doing Kumdo with foam bats, and there are a few folks who have "Hapkido Tournaments." For my part putting lipstick on a pig won't make her a beauty pageant contestant no matter how hard one tries. There is, however, the motivation. Putting on a successful competition is a cheap way to make money, so there is always the pressure to move in the direction of competition. Furthermore, most folks do not have the strength of character or dedication to train for its own sake without some external reinforcement such as attaining rank, winning a trophy or garnering the regard of their peers or the public.( In a way, LEO-s and security people are lucky in this respect in that at least they have external motivation to train hard, knowing that they have a higher probability of using what they learn. The typical civilian practitioner must reach inside to find the dedication to train hard and regular even knowing it is unlikely that they will ever need to use their skills against an actual attack.) FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:36:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Quests Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me thinks that George and Michael have been snared by the Grail Light. Hopefully Sir Galahad will not be there to "save" them. Carry on......;) RichGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:46:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Gommels Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luke wrote: "I agree with all your opinions except one. The "backing" issue. I have my own school and in younger years I followed blindly." Thank you Luke for your post. Perhaps I myself need to clarify. I have not ever needed the backing of certification from Master Gommels. I have the connections to get the Korean credentials if need be. I was responding to the absolute positives (character/integrity and just plain honesty) which I have observed during my visits to Master Gommels' school in Rochester, MN. As you stated Luke, "being burned." I too have walked down this path. I and my students did get burned at least twice by some pretty big "fish" out there within the Korean martial arts. I promptly ended those relationships, no second chances. Your students are very fortunate to have an instructor who is as conscientious as you are and I wish you the very best in your future relationship with Master Gommels. Respectfully Master Garrett DeWitt DE WITT MARTIAL ARTS NKMAA Member Brainerd, MN. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:47:38 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luke, You said: "As a professional in the arts I feel I need to know where my certification comes from. When a student looks at my certification on the wall, which new students often do, I need to be confident of that certification and what it stands for. I will never blindly follow again! " I disagree. As a long-time teacher, I can tell you the majority of people could care less. They are by far more concerned about what you can do for them, than they are that your certificate comes from the Kinko-wan, Conman-wan or whatever. WE are the ones who typically give two shakes, and IMHO that is how people like Mr. Hackworth are able to put forth the misinformation they do. If it not the general public they deceive... it is us, because we think, for whatever reason, that Korean certification is the Holy Grail. Certification is just that... it is supposed to be a method of quality control and we have moved from that. It is now a numbers game typically, and a method of lining one's pocketbooks. This is not to say that that is always the case, so please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I am saying pretty much what Master Han, Bong Soo impressed upon me the other day. He asked why I wanted a Korean certificate. I explained that I had been conditioned to believe it was important by my associates of the time, and that that is why I pursued it. Formerly, all I had ever received was Kwan certification. He went on to say that I don't need any certificate from Korea and that Quality is by far the most important thing. Sounds like very good advice to me. Just consider it for a second. Why do we send our money overseas? What do they REALLY do for us? It is a perceived intangible asset. In reality, particularly in lieu of the scandals over seas, and the blatant manner in which they have shown that, in many cases, we have become a cash-cow. Are there not talented Masters here? Frank --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:33:58 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Definition of Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I would take a wee bit of exception to that definition, especially as it relates to most competitive outlets of combat athletics (or martial sports, or combat sports, or whatever). In full-contact striking activities, most grappling activities, and all NHB activities there is no way (other than good matchmaking) to intentionally prolong the outcome of the match. A boxer can knock out his opponent in the opening seconds, a wrestler can take his opening suplex straight into a winning pin, and a NHB match can end with either a flash knockout or sudden submission. The match can end at any time, and quite suddenly...thus the drama and the tension. No, I've yet to see the "sport" where eye-gouging, nose biting, and nard slapping were allowed, but there is plenty of "danger" present in most combat sports. Now, in football both teams have to play for 60 minutes regardless if one team runs up 24 points in the 1st quarter. In martial sports...no, it can end as suddenly and decisively as any street fight, IMHO. The "protraction" that you speak of is only partially a result of the rules (although they do play a role). Most often it is because you are talking about similarly trained athletes who have been matched up due to congruent levels of ability and experience. PLUS, most participants in combat athletics have undergone tremendous levels of physical, mental, and emotional conditioning (something I'll touch on in Part Deux of my rant) that is specific to their activity, and this allows them to run head-long into each for a much longer period of time compared to the two drunks down at Joe's Pool Hall who are trying to resolve the eternal question, "Which one of us this night will receive the tender caresses of Maggie the Barfly". Just offering another take on the "sport" thing. More to come... CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:33:13 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dennis McHenry Subject: [The_Dojang] As Morphous said Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "tim walker" Timo <> 'I thought it was the dormouse, and he said, "Feed your head." Same same. Master Mac is probably right:)' Nope, I was wrong. I can't believe I wrote that- he said "Free your mind". I tell my students that all the time, I don't know why I wrote 'expand'. Same thing I guess :-) Mac (losing my mind) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:03:00 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Les Connard-Florida Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have the rare opportunity Monday Febuary the 16th of having Master Les Connard of Southern California along with two of his black belts visit my Dojang in Daytona Beach Florida and hold a 3 to 4 hour seminar. Master Connard is a 6th Dan with the Jang Mu Hapkido Organization under Grandmaster Chong S. Kim. I met Master Connard 3 years ago in Orlando and he was kind enough to show me and a couple of my guys the basics of Jang Mu Hapkido and it was awesome. Master Connard is a great teacher and Hapkidoist who has put his money where his mouth is. He won the WKO Full Contact tournament in Los Angeles 8 years in a row in the heavyweight division! He has also written numerous articles on Hapkido for Black Belt Magazine. He owns a Jang Mu Hapkido Dojang in Monrovia California just outside of Los Angeles. His teaching, techniques and articulation on how and why his techniques work are simply incredible. Needless to say me and my bunch are stoked to have Master Connard visit and teach. If anyone is in the area and would like to attend Monday Feb. 16th just contact me by email and we can set something up. It will be at Millers Martial Arts in Ormond Beach Florida... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:49:43 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?SlaneSavage?= To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms - The holy grail Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a Tang Soo Do person, this is something that has vexed me for some time, your opinions would be greatly appreciated. When I first started learning TSD and our forms, initially I was taught the basics of the form (e.g. low block, step forward and mid section punch, turn etc). As I progressed I was encouraged to constantly refine the basics and improve my understanding of the movements (stance, breathing, movement, visualisation etc). As time passed I was encouraged to continually practice and improve the actual execution of the forms, to question the applications which were sometimes used to help me originally visualise and perform the basic movements with some meaning (rather than some weird variation on line dancing!!). I assume (from a position of some ignorance) that the masters of the various forms which we practise today, originally developed the forms to contain actual combat effective techniques within each particular movement in the form. I have read several books in which the authors offer different interpretations of the applications, some of which "feel" more appropriate than others. Apologies for dragging on, now to my dilemma, what were the original applications that the original Masters intended when they developed these forms, is this the holy grail we should be seeking or should we concentrate on trying to learn how we as individuals can best apply these techniques today. Best Regards Slane --------------------------------- BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Forms - The holy grail Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:35:39 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Slane, > I have read several books in which the authors offer different > interpretations of the applications, some of which "feel" more appropriate > than others. > > Apologies for dragging on, now to my dilemma, what were the original > applications that the original Masters intended when they developed these > forms, is this the holy grail we should be seeking or should we > concentrate on trying to learn how we as individuals can best apply these > techniques today. > > Best Regards > > Slane As one of the authors of books on applications the one thing I have discovered, at least to my satisfaction, is that we will never know for sure what the "original master" had in mind when they created the form. The best we can do is to understand the applications in a way that will make sense to us in our current situation. I have some articles posted on my web site that have been previously published in some magazines that may be of interest to you. Rick Clark "It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep be" Virgil www.ao-denkou.kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest