Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:03:06 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #66 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Sport vs. Martial Art (Rick Clark) 2. Fulbright Korea Executive Director Position (fwd) (Ray Terry) 3. AAU Headgear requirements (Wilson, Byron) 4. Re: Les Connard - Florida Seminar (ABurrese@aol.com) 5. Journey (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Re: Master Clay (Dewitt, Garrett) 7. Art vs. Sport (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 8. Mudo (Stovall, Craig) 9. Certificates or lying your @&& off (joseph lumpkin) 10. RE: Art vs. Sport (Rick Clark) 11. Forms - The holy grail (Bobby Whittemore) 12. sparring (Richard Tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Sport vs. Martial Art Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:42:56 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Klass, > From: Klaas Barends [mailto:barends@opurk.nl] > > What got me on this thread was the assertion that Judo was a sport not a > > martial art (I forget who posted that). > > That was me, and I did it on purpose. You are as bad as me I hate to say. :-) > > The purpose was to get a discussing going about when does a martial art > turn into a sport (and maybe vice versa). > > My guess would be that you can train Judo (and Taekwon-do, karate, etc.) > both as a sport and as a martial art. > However you often see the (and I think this is most visible in Judo) that > the martial arts side doesn't get any attention. Thus turning Judo into > a sport for about 99% of the time. Unfortunately I tend to agree with you. I saw this begin to happen when Judo became part of the Olympics. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:55:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Fulbright Korea Executive Director Position (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... To all Koreanists: I am writing to remind you that the Fulbright Executive Director position in Korea is open for applications, as announced on this list a month ago. While a number of applications have come in, there is still time to apply by the February 20 deadline. Please pass on this information to anyone whom you think might be good for the Fulbright position, particularly AAS people or international education people or ex-Peace Corps people or retired diplomatic people who might not be subscribers to this list. While the Fulbright program in Korea has grown in the past six years, so has the staff available to administer the program. More important, while the Executive Director is retiring, the Deputy Director, Mrs. Jai Ok Shim, is not, and her 27 years of Fulbright experience will be available to support the new administration. We hope you will help Fulbright Korea to recruit the right person for this important job. Thank you. Horace H. Underwood Executive Director "pro tem" ---------------------------- FULBRIGHT KOREA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR'S POSITION The Korean-American Educational Commission (KAEC) Applications are invited for the Executive Director's position at the Korean-American Educational Commission (KAEC) in Seoul, Korea. The KAEC, or Fulbright Commission, is a non-profit binational educational commission responsible for administering the Fulbright Academic Exchange Program in Korea, which includes grant and nongrant programs, an educational advising service, and an educational testing unit. Candidates should have considerable administrative experience in education or related fields, plus extensive familiarity with the procedures of both American and Korean universities. The Executive Director's position requires an individual with strong fiscal and personnel capabilities in addition to excellent oral and written communication skills in English. A working knowledge of Korean is desirable. Previous public relations and outreach experience is also a positive. Experience with computer systems, multi/bilateral organizations and educational testing is highly desirable. The Executive Director must be able to interact effectively with Korean and American academics and government officials. The responsibilities of the Executive Director include supervision of a fifty–person staff in Seoul, as well as preparation of program and budget plans and reports. The Executive Director reports to a ten-member binational Board of Directors, which oversees all KAEC activities. The Executive Director must be able to direct the implementation of an international academic exchange program in a manner that ensures that KAEC fulfills the intent and purpose of Fulbright legislation and which responds to changing needs and opportunities. Travel within Korea and occasionally abroad is required. A two-year renewable contract will be offered beginning July 2004. Salary plus benefits. For more information see the Fulbright Web site (English home page): http://www.fulbright.or.kr Letters of application accompanied by résumés and postmarked not later than February 20, 2004, should be addressed to: Search Chairman, KAEC Board c/o Deputy Public Affairs Officer (DPAO) U.S. Embassy Seoul, Unit 15550 APO AP 96205-5550 Fax: (82-2) 794-2889 E-mail: gilmerpg@state.gov or from Korea DPAO Public Affairs Section U.S. Embassy Seoul 32 Sejongno Jongno-gu, Seoul 110-710 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:14:18 -0500 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] AAU Headgear requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am an AAU certified referee so maybe I can answer from some experience. There is a great emphasis from the AAU on not having a multitude of uniforms, patches, color of headgear and other "inconsistencies" relating to uniform and equipment. From my experience, given no direction, people will show up to participate in sparring, forms, and other competitions in everything from blue jeans to grand master uniforms, regardless of rank, others safety and appropriateness. I believe that the standardization of colors is just that, the AAU doesn't want eagles, skulls and crossed bones,etc on headgear. It (standardization) does give the participants and audience a sense of professionalism or, at least, the desire to present a unified activity. I had to replace all of my black gear but, if you don't want to compete by the standards, choose not to compete. Cost me over $100.00. As to the headgear having extended protection under the chin, I have no information as to how that rule was formulated. Go to the AAU web site and contact Mr. Rick Blair. He is the Senior Referee and has always been very will to discuss rules and their application. By the way, Kim, you might want to go to the web site anyway. I understand that the rules are updated to more closely conform to WTF regulation. It is worth a check, anyway Byron Wilson TKD Student Byron Wilson [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:14:19 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Les Connard - Florida Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike, That's great you got to work out with Les Connard down there. I know before you have said good things about him, and I have heard others speak very highly of him, as well as having read some of his articles. He is someone I look forward to meeting and training with too. Wish FL was not so far from MT. :-) Looking forward to meeting you face to face one of these days too. Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:20:50 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Journey Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mel writes: > i remember being drug through the streets with a hand over my > eyes although i could still see well enough to know something was > awry. i > suppose i can now say that i actually have visited the birthplace of > KSW and have > been studying KMAs since i was five. wow! Bruce, see what you started:) Now you have Mel, and George and Michael all going on pilgrimages to Amsterdam, while we ALL know that the real roots of Korean arts lie in the Tibetan Gopher tossing that JR brought back at great risks to his personal safety. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:22:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Clay Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Frank Clay wrote: I am saying pretty much what Master Han, Bong Soo impressed upon me the other day. He asked why I wanted a Korean certificate. I explained that I had been conditioned to believe it was important by my associates of the time, and that that is why I pursued it. Formerly, all I had ever received was Kwan certification. He went on to say that I don't need any certificate from Korea and that Quality is by far the most important thing. Sounds like very good advice to me. Exceedingly well stated Master Clay. When I began training with GM Rudy Timmerman and the NKMAA about four years ago, he too stated words very, very close to what GM Han said. I do NOT have my certificates hanging anywhere in my dojang. If the students wish to see them, I shall bring them in or they can contact Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman and check up on me. My most precious certificate came directly from the NKMAA and Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman, a Dutchman. If all goes well for me, next November I hope to receive/obtain the First Dahn Black Belt Kong Shin Bup (TM) Hap Ki Do rank certificate from this same Grandmaster, Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman. "Quality is by far the most important thing." Regards Master Garrett DeWitt DE WITT MARTIAL ARTS NKMAA Member Brainerd, MN. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:26:21 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Art vs. Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Rick Clark: You make several interesting points about art vs. sport and thank you for sharing your comments with the DD. There have been many excellent points made on the DD about this topic. For example, both you and J. R. West made the point about it being up to the instructor of the school more than the system, which I fully agree with. I believe one of the most important points to consider is the origin of all martial "sport", including the western ones such as boxing and wrestling, are based on some ancient fighting systems. As a result, many of the techniques can be effective in self-defense. Ray made this point about wrestling and I concur. I also believe western boxers and KKW (WTF) TKDers can do very well in street fights with their sparing skills. You stated "If I were to be forced to pick out a system that is more sport than martial art I would have to pick KKW TKD" IMHO, KKW TKD (WTF) is more on the art side than sport because it includes forms, breaking demonstrations and various other drills such as one step sparing. It clearly has a sport side, which gets lots of exposure because it is in the Olympic. I do not believe that reduces the art side of it at all. I also believe most people in KKW TKD are in it for self-defense and not sport. Sometime ago, the DD referenced a paper on the history of martial arts which claims the Greek Olympic in about 650 BC included fighting matches where the participants used punches, kicks, joint locks, throws and various other techniques which are very common in many of today's martial arts systems. What does this mean? I believe it just mean that from the beginning many martial artists like to compete with their fighting skills, but in a legal way without seriously injuring others. I believe the sport side can be a benefit to the art side by improving the effectiveness technique. Having said all this, I also believe if one only focuses on the sport side then they will loss out on the benefits of the art side. Cheers John --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:35:03 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mudo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Now THAT would be an interesting subject for an essay. Take a shot at it!!! Here's my questions... 1. What are the "common bio-mechanics" that bind together wrist locks, and spinning back kicks...both found in the Hapkido arts...both as different as night and day. I could name a dozen other examples, but you get my drift. 2. What are the underlying goals and philosophies? Who defines this? Is it as simple as, "I kill, you dead", or would it fill the Encyclopedia Britannica and address a multitude of issues ranging from personal development, to upholding one's piece of the whole social contract (far beyond mere fighting)? The reason I ask is because it seems that the early Hapkido people were VERY eclectic in their approach to martial art development. They seemed to be saying, "Does this appear to have merit in a physical altercation...yes, I think it does...in it goes". And when I say "eclectic", I mean that in a good way...it denotes a willingness to think outside the box, blend methods, and create something that is greater than the sum of its parts. I'm hearing more and more people on this list (even YOU Bruce) saying that Hapkido is basically about survival. The guys that put Hapkido together were pretty young when all of this was going on, yes? Do you REALLY think they had one eye on a kinesiology textbook to make sure that the core movements of the art all adhered to the same motor recruitment patterns? In my VERY honest opinion, I think it's us Westerners who pine away for some super-duper underlying principles that can be used to "tie it all together", and in turn create this illusion that certain martial arts fit neatly into a framework of objective logic and ancient knowdledge. All the better if those principles can be even casually linked to some nebulous concept of martial chivalry, and/or caste driven codes of conduct ("Hey, Park...watch me make this round eye jump through hoops, and scrape the floor"). Some people (not me) could look at Hapkido and say, "Boy, what a hodge-podge". Would that assessment be too far from the mark? I dunno...it's not fair for me to say. I personally have no problem taking joint-manipulation theory and technique from the Daito-ryu school, and putting that into a syllabus right next to pugilistic and grappling concepts from Korean, Chinese and Japanese martial arts (and evidently, other people didn't have a problem either). The only merit that means anything to me these days (pertaining to the physical art) is whether or not you can really do what you SAY you can do (don't urinate on my leg, and tell me it's raining). I don't care where it comes from...can a human being actually pull this off under real conditions...that's all that matters for me. Without underlying combative truth, we're just dancing (but dancing ain't a bad hobby). Now, the Jerry Lewis spit-takes start happening for me when big, fancy ideas like "common biomechanics and philosophies" start getting thrown around a little bit too liberally. I think we're giving those young guys from back in the day a LITTLE bit too much credit. Or maybe not...I dunno...you tell me. Food for thought... CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "joseph lumpkin" To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:49:59 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Certificates or lying your @&& off Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank - I very much agree with all you have said about rank certs. It is all about us and our training and abilities and not the papers. But, let me be the devil's advocate (ironic for a Christian org to use that term...or maybe not). Those of you who know me will know I am down to earth and simply think we should be honest and not put on some pretense. I have my faith, try to do what is best for the group and think others should do the same. But lately keeping things in line is like trying to herd cats. Here is a problem senario for you: Billy Bob took karate a few years back when he was young and got...let's say a yellow belt. Now he wants to teach. He wants to power, glory, ego boost, or money...hahahaha. Worse yet, he wants to do it in a church or community center setting. Billy Bob sends his money to any number of groups. Let's say he sends it to the USMA and gets a Sokeship paper or a 6th dan or some such thing. He takes the paper to the church or community center and the board, knowing only what the paper says and that he is listed on the site, grants him permission to teach. He is knows enough to get them started in exercise and the first few moves but is clueless after that. Kids get hurt. When they have to depend on the art to save or protect themselves it is useless. We have this going on right now. The USMA posts people who have asked Mr Porter to teach Judo at seminars right along side those who have bought rank. All are considered members. Some have bought rank and some have worked thier tails off. A few are actual students when he was really teaching and was doing it right. There is no way to tell who is what. (I have been trying to get my name removed from that site for years because of this.) Now, let me give you another quick but true story. Several times I have seen those who were just fine being a 4th dan go nuts when given a 5th or 6th. It becomes like a drug and they start to buy rank...more and more rank. We recently had a few of our own fall to this sickness. They began to buy, trade, cross rank... all of which we do not allow in Shinsei Kwon. After warning them, we had to show them the door. They could not seem to stop. Now, on the suface (prima facia) it seems this supports your point, but if certificates are not the answer and not having rank / training is not the answer and proof of this training in the form of certificates is not the answer, what is? We have a website that lists all black belts in good standing in the Kwan. I think all systems should have this system, but how is one to know what site is a "USMA type" and who is for real if you are a new comer or you do not know the game? We run the Karate for Christ ministry and have no way to police the wantabes exept to send out emails making poeple aware it is wrong to lie about rank, buy it, list false rank, trade rank....well, duh! We have the capacity to police Shinsei and we do so as well as we can. Many teachers do not care. As much as I hate to say it..being a Repulican who hates gov't in anyone's business... maybe we need a national board of grading or style acceptance. Possibly an olympic type body. Then again, maybe they should come work with me as a bounty hunter and if they can play for real they can teach... What say you? Joseph Lumpkin Shinsei Hapkido Karate for Christ _________________________________________________________________ Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Art vs. Sport Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:54:48 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi John, > Hello Rick Clark: > You make several interesting points about art vs. sport and thank you > for sharing your comments with the DD. There have been many excellent > points made > I also believe western boxers and KKW (WTF) > TKDers can do very well in street fights with their sparing skills. Any training will give a person an advantage over an unskilled individual in a self-defense situation. So I would expect that a KKW school would produce individuals that have improved skills in self-defense than an untrained individual. I would point out - as others have - that punches to the face can be very surprising to individuals that do not practice against such attacks. I would lump into this low kicks and kicks to the groin. > You stated "If I were to be forced to pick out a system that is more sport > than martial art I would have to pick KKW TKD" > IMHO, KKW TKD (WTF) is more on the art side than sport because it > includes forms, breaking demonstrations and various other drills such as > one step sparing. It clearly has a sport side, which gets lots of > exposure because it is in the Olympic. >From my experience with KKW, I would have to differ, and understand I am using a broad brush to paint the KKW as more in the sport side. Let me ask this of folks in KKW side. If you were to draw up a lesson plan and chart the amount of time spent on sport or competition related activities would there be a greater or lesser amount of time spent on sport or self-defense? My gut feeling is that you would probably have more time spent on the sport side. Sure there would be technique that could be overlapped between both but I still think more time would be spent on the sport side. > I also believe most people in KKW TKD are in it for self-defense and not > sport. I think you may be right. In my experience the vast majority of people begin taking any martial art (or martial sport) for self-defense. > John --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:55:23 -0800 (PST) From: Bobby Whittemore To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms - The holy grail Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Slane, >what were the original >applications that the original Masters intended... In my current view, I'm thinking that forms teach and ingrain fundamental Principles. The application of those principles will depend upon the particulars of the self-defense situation one finds oneself in. Take a look at Rick's book "75 Down Blocks", and you will get a good idea of how powerful and robust a single fundamental principle (the down block) is, and how many different applications spring from this principle, depending on the unfolding dynamic of the situation. So, in my opinion, to concentrate on the original applications, or to visualize one application only for a movement is to miss the point. As you point out, visualizing a particular application helps in the early stages of learning the form and the principles the form teaches, but as we mature in our practice, we can begin to gain more understanding of the greater possibilities of application offered by the principles contained in the form. Perhaps that's the holy grail. Bobby Whittemore Richmond Virginia USA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:09:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Any ideas for sparing drills for side moving or steping out there? Thanks, sandy. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest