Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:50:06 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #68 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Limp_Wrist_Technique=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_The_Dutch_Connection?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. Seminars (Todd Miller) 4. RE: Art vs. Sport (Rick Clark) 5. Gophers and Moles (Rudy Timmerman) 6. RE: The Dutch connection (Thomas Gordon) 7. Certification and the world with it (luke rose) 8. I know that I know the answer to this. (Edward) 9. pilgrimage (George Peters) 10. The Dutch Connection (Barrie Restall) 11. George's question on Sip Soo (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 12. Sip Soo (Charles Richards) 13. Grandmaster Lim in Chicago (International Hapkido USA) 14. Forms Applications again (Charles Richards) 15. TKD/Arnis/Hapkido Techniques posted online from North Austin TKD Seminar in November. (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 16. A very personal thought (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:14:54 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Limp_Wrist_Technique=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear George: ".....A question for the DD members: In the hyung Sip Soo, what is the "limp wristed move" immediately prior to the first knife hand block for?..." Are you very sure its a "limp wrist" and not a high wrist strike? There is also the hand application common to Praying Mantis styles of Chinese Boxing in which the wrist is tightly flexed with the fingers adducted. This movement is observed as both a finger strike as well as a snaring or trapping movement. I have no idea if any of this is of any help. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:19:28 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_The_Dutch_Connection?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....“Beware of large Floridian rodents. Regardless of the nasty Oriental habit to keep them around as pets, these critters WILL leave a nasty odor on anyone even remotely in touch with them.” Hopefully this clears up any misconceptions:)...." Absolutely. How canny of those Dutch to recognize those critters for what they truly are--- er--- were. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:44:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All the info is on the AHA website. GM Lim, Hyun Soo 9th Dan HKD, 8th Dan KHD, 3/20/04 11:00 - 3:00 3/27/04 12:00 - 4:00 3/28/04 12:00 - 4:00 I believe the cost is $75.00 per seminar. Take care Todd Miller --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Art vs. Sport Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:16:06 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dave, OK you said "nice dialog going, keep it up !!" Sometimes you get what you ask for :-) > Mr. Clark asked : > > Let me ask this of folks in KKW side. If you were to draw up a > > lesson plan and chart the amount of time spent on sport or competition > > related activities would there be a greater or lesser amount of time > > spent on sport or self-defense? > > My answer is a resounding Self Defense! Just last night my teacher > asked the black belts in attendance to pair off and demonstrate 2 > self defense techniques. You gave the example of what went on at your club. But my question would be, is this a common event in your club? Or is it the exception? > We are constantly admonished to keep our "hands up, guard > your head". We are told that even though a punch to the face is > "illegal" in a tournament we should not develop the bad habit of arms > at the side (like you see so often in tourny TKD fighters). And one > might easily find our Master's fist near our nose as a reminder. > "illegal"... sure, In a tournament setting, but in our Dojang, you'd > best watch your noggin. It seems to me from our statement that you are admonished to keep your hands up, unlike "tourney TKD fighters" your school is somewhat different in the curriculum than other clubs. If so then perhaps your club is not indicative of other TKD clubs. If so then perhaps your answer (above) only represents your club and not that of other KKW schools? > > Just a couple cents worth, nice dialog going, keep it up !! > > have a groovy day, > > dave weller Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:17:39 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Gophers and Moles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > You are playing this all wrong!! :-) I stand corrected Bruce, and I'll now go hide my head in one of them thar mole holes Mel talked about. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] The Dutch connection Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:35:58 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chief Master Timmerman, I got a kick out of the (justly) bashing that the large and in charge Florida fella gets. But hey now, not all of us Florida boys are rodents. I have heard of a south-central Floridian rodent but he's the exception. Well, him and the "Great Pretender, Jack Stern" http://www.ohiotkd.net/taekwondoreporter/page5.htm & http://www.cnn.com/US/9612/04/medal.without.honor/ I'm the northwest corner of Florida - some refer to us as "LA" (Lower Alabama). Warm regards, Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: Rudy Timmerman [mailto:kwanjang@sympatico.ca] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 1:09 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Dutch connection Hello Bruce: To further clarify the Dutch connection with the dreaded Tibetan Gophers, it should be noted that this connection is a direct result of the Dutchmen's zest for trade with the East. The value of the Tibetan critter was such that the Dutch wanted to bring it to back Europe, where the art of Gopher tossing was fast becoming popular in the 1400s. Not wanting to outright purchase the critters, the Dutch tried to trade them for a lesser known rather large breed of Floridian rat. However, the whole thing collapsed when it was found out that the Floridian rodents had a nasty habit of digging large holes for themselves where they eventually drowned in their own excrement. Needless to say, even the Orientals were not particularly interested in having many of these large rodents, and they just kept one around as a pet. The rest of the world had no problems recognizing the uselessness of large rodents with a nasty habit of digging holes for themselves they could not get out of, and they simply left the Floridian rodent to drown in his own excrement hoping it would not cause too much of a stink. Dutchmen, known for their aptitude to quickly "smell a rat", were some of the first to abandon trade. Sad for their failure to rid the US of its nasty rodent problem, they pulled back to that infamous district in Amsterdam to pursue more pleasurable activities and that is where the Dutch connection ends. However, before leaving, the early traders left behind one important document for future historians: "Beware of large Floridian rodents. Regardless of the nasty Oriental habit to keep them around as pets, these critters WILL leave a nasty odor on anyone even remotely in touch with them." Hopefully this clears up any misconceptions:) Sincerely, Rudy _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:06:26 -0800 (PST) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Certification and the world with it Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, Quality is the undisputed champion in my book! In my heart, I wish no one would have to even have certificates. However I'm pretty sure the world doesn't work that way. Or at least not any part I've been in.IMHO, If people were first true to themselves they could then be true to others. Instead we have checks and balances to keep people in line. My heart once again says "the heck with certificates I'll just train my butt off and make respectful contacts with others". Because of having a business I have to consider what my clients and peers in the business think. Sometimes I let myself dream. I dream I'm only a student or independently wealthy. That would solve my immediate problem. If anyone has a few thoughts of clarity or inspiration I could use them. I have learned many things already from being on this web-site. I very much enjoy it. Thank you ALL. Mind racing, heart pumping, soul torn, Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:12:55 -0800 From: Edward To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] I know that I know the answer to this. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I promised myself I would not let this sort of silliness take my time, but then again I cannot help myself. I was watching stuff over at the Budoseek, and when ever somethingbad comes up about a guy in Fla there are always plenty of warnings about the rules et al. Heck half the post there are "read the sticky note". But recently some man from Fla has been posting again and saying things that are clearly against their rules and yet the moderators seems to encourage his conversations. It all is really like a train wreck or a reality TV show. It is terrible and soul draining and dumb and I can't not got over and start reading. Are there any Danjun breathing exercises to help me focus on avoiding this silliness. Sincerely Edward Peters Kyosahnim --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:56:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] pilgrimage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sirs: And Lo, let the great Tibetian Gopher be our standard to point us to the hallowed place of our beginnings where we shall receive enlightenment beyond the normal ken. I implore you brethern, let us go not by ones and twos ,traveling at chance, but let us band together in this great crusade so that all might benefit from the ensuing escasty of our findings. May the Great Gopher's paw point you the way! Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your online time. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Barrie Restall" To: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:41:01 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Dutch Connection Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy, In the interests of historical accuracy I have to point out that it was not Tibetan Gophers that were the subject of the Dutch trade, but Mongolian Marmots that migrated to Tibet at the end of the last Ice Age (Mammalian Migrations: Phineas Q. Diddlethorpe, 1872 pp 45-50). These creatures are still part of the diet of the nomadic shepherds in the Ural-Altai area from whence the Korean peoples emanated (Anthropological Observations in the Altai Region; Otto von Snaddlebatch 1987 pp 146- 202). Hope this clears that up. Regards, Barrie Restall --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:59:52 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] George's question on Sip Soo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George, Never heard it discribed like that, but the most common interpretation is you are either grasping and removing an opponent's hand from your right shoulder/chest or locking it to your shoulder chest to complete a wrist flex/lock and an elbow lock or break with the soo do. But the shil ki interpretation varies with the hand the attacker grabs with. And yes, students should find applications themselves in forms. Tang Soo!!! Danny Dunn <<<<<<<< A question for the DD members: In the hyung Sip Soo, what is the "limp wristed move" immediately prior to the first knife hand block for? Respectfully, George Peters>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:46:25 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sip Soo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George asks "A question for the DD members: In the hyung Sip Soo, what is the "limp wristed move" immediately prior to the first knife hand block for?" I like the rear hand inside (push) parry On a more hidden level could be counter grabbing a lapel grab And I'm sure 100 others based on instructor preference.... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "International Hapkido USA" To: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:17:26 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grandmaster Lim in Chicago Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All, This is a very Quick Post about the Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo Seminar in Chicago on March 20, 2004. The Seminar will take place at the Renaissance Hotel, Northbrook, from 11 AM - 3 PM. Grandmaster Lim will be teaching the entire seminar. The cost is only $75!! The seminar is being hosted by the American Hapkido Association, but this is a totally non-political event - wear your uniform, bring a smile and be ready to train hard. I am coordinating the event (because I live in Chicago) and will be happy to assist anyone in the Registration Process or finding hotel, transport information, etc. I was trying to do an online registration, but I am a better martial artist than IT guy, so email and attachments will have to do for the moment. Please feel free to contact me at: intlhapkidousa@msn.com for details, I will respond within, lets say, 12 hours of your request. This will be a great day of training with one of Hapkido's greatest teachers. I look forward to hearing from many of you to register... Sincerely, Kevin Sogor Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msncom --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:27:20 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms Applications again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Apologies for dragging on, now to my dilemma, what were the original applications that the original Masters intended when they developed these forms, is this the holy grail we should be seeking or should we concentrate on trying to learn how we as individuals can best apply these techniques today." Dear Slane, Welcome to the path. Here's the short version of what I learned to date. 1. Joint Manipulations (Tuite/Kwan je sul) and Pain Compliance (Kyushu, Kupso) Points work together and augment each other. 2. In Kup so (PCP), the arm points are learned first as they "set up" other points. 3. In Kwan Je Sul, the fingers require the least effort to get a good lock, but the wrists are easier to intercept and only require moderate effort, but more grip strength. 4. Manipulating the large joints (elbow, shoulder) usually requires a pain compliance and or a small joint lock preceeding to help with leverage. 5. Linear striking PCP's are usually easier to "see" in the form. 6. Joint manipulations require a little deeper look. 7. A joint manipulation combined with a PCP strike and/or multiple PCP strikes require a deeper look at the form, often a deeper understanding of anatomy and Oriental (5 element) Medicine. 8. Some of the inner folds of the onion require you to go back in time as to how the pattern was taught, and not how it has been modernized or standardized. 9. All of the above will require a lot of hands on qualified instruction to be proficient at. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: "The Dojang" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:34:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD/Arnis/Hapkido Techniques posted online from North Austin TKD Seminar in November. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have posted several technique videos on our site from our last seminar on 11/15/03. There are Arnis, TKD, Tukong Moosul, and Hapkido Techniques listed. Each video is about 5-25 seconds. Please feel free to look at them, comment, download share etc. You can find the videos at the following link: http://www.natkd.com/seminar_techniques.htm There are currently 17 techniques documented (listed below). I'll put more up over the next few days: 1. Seminar Picture Slide Show -- Several pictures set to music 2. Seminar Trailer -- Various videos from the seminar set music. 3. Arnis Choke Technique 4. Arnis Wrist Lock 5. Arnis Disarm Technique 6. Applications for the 1st Three Moves of Chon-Ji/Kicho Hyung Il Bu 7. Alternate Chon-Ji Applications 8. Hapkido Center Lock 9. Hapkido Center Lock 2 10. Hapkdio Counter to Punch 11. Hapkido Center Lock to Arm Bar 12. Hapkido Ki Strikes 13. Hapkido Leg Lock 14. Hapkido Hammer Lock 15. Hapkido Arm Bar from a Back Choke 16. Hapkido S-Lock to Arm Bar 17. Hapkido Arm Bar from Double Wrist Grab Regards, Jason --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] A very personal thought Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From the KHF website... A very personal thought a little more about Master Hackworth Writer : Sung Book Bae(yesb279@hanmail.net) As you know, I know the BBS characteristic, too. Nobody can be safe here. Many people have come here with benevolence, and have gone with hurt. We are practicing martial arts. My understanding "the art" is that "We call it art, because it is different from others." No martial artist can be the same. Only I expect some martial arts ethics here. And I am one of a few who support the positive roles of the BBS. I have posted a very personal thought here. Because of my poor English ability, some could not be expressed properly as what I intended, and some could be misunderstood. Please forgive me, if there is anybody who was hurt by my writing. I don't have any bit of intention to advocate Master Hackworth nor reprimand him here on this BBS personally. Just I think he is very shrewd. I don't know the better word for him. He issued lots of certificates using anything he could use. And he let people pay that. Majority of people here don't expect martial art certificates, specially the Dan(Black belt) certificate, unless they practice a certain amount of period at a certain Dojang(school) under a certain master's guide. People here don't imagine they can get some Dan certificates only if they participate some seminars for just 2 or 3 days. Of course there are many seminars here, too. But, not for the Dan certificate. So, people here think people there do same things as them. When we receive Dan certificates which are issued by many masters of outside of Korea for transfer or higher promotion, many times we are embarrassed by them. Many of those certificates are very high ranking, like 5th, 6th even 8th or 9th Dan. How you could react in that situation? I can not tell those are real or fake, as those are issued by their systems. What I can do is just to say whether those are the KHF's or not. That is why I have posted requirements for the KHF Dan and samples here this web. And we don't understand the calling "Grand Master". What is different from "Master"? Anything great meaning? In the KHF, we don't use that calling. We use "Sa Bum", meaning "Master". Sometimes, we use "Kwan Jang", meaning "School Owner". You will never hear traditional martial artists or people using other calling except "Sa Bum", master, expressing respect. Of course lying is a different matter. If Master Hackworth lied people there, he should be brought to your court there by them. Frankly speaking, I have not heard anything about that matter directly from him. When President Oh and his retinue, including me, went to Master Hackworth Dojang, we didn't know who were there. Before and after that event, I asked him so many times the list of people who came there, and still I haven't got that. I think he wants to be a middle man for many reasons. And that is why the KHF couldn't send any thank message to the participants. President Oh and his retinue were there to test Dan rank, not for any seminar. That was why we left there early and didn't show up there. And we thought people there were trained under KHF masters and expected people wear the KHF uniform. Master Choi Suk Hwan, a young master, was invited there by Master Hackworth privately. The KHF didn't give him any official authority except a private teaching as a master. We thought he was helping people who were preparing the Dan test. So, we had not prepared any certificate for that event except thank letters. Master Cushing and other masters who were there, please understand the situation. Master Duque, we thought you were one of Hackworth's junior master back then. Please excuse our misunderstanding. Actually, President Oh and his retinue were deeply impressed by your Hapkido demonstration. And that gave them good impression about Master Hackworth, too, as they thought you are trained under him. And from around that event organized by Master Hackworth, the KHF has become to get interested in international matters, and activities of Master Hackworth have become known to public. After that event, I know, he lost lots of things he established for long time, nonetheless good ways or bad ways. And the KHF lost lots of its honor in dealing with him. Consequently, the KHF has given him one more chance to recover his faith or something like that, submitting tamely to unfavorable reputation. Unfortunately, lots of embarrassing things are reported till now, and I'm checking those things to report my seniors. And when I say Roman Empire, it is her first thousand years story, from Romulus to Julius Caesar, in her two thousand years history. Please excuse my ignorance. Sung Book Bae --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest