Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:17:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #82 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. trash talking (Kevin Luttrell) 2. Martial Art Names (Michael Rowe) 3. Bruce's Hapkido Theory (FirstPe315@aol.com) 4. Re: Starting school stories (luke rose) 5. The Bruce Sims Manifesto (Stovall, Craig) 6. TGT- origin story - Viet Nam (Brian Beach) 7. Re: Bruce (Dr. Daryl Covington) 8. Jye Nigma (George Peters) 9. Looking for a taekwondoist (Grant D. Watson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:12:50 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] trash talking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I learn quite alot from this list. I enjoy reading all the posts, and the insight of all the experienced and talented martial artists on the list. I seldom post, but when I do have something to say I try to say it. Why is it, that martial artists see to have the hardest time getting along between themselves? I have practiced a long time and never really been able to figure this out. You would think, since most martial arts history involves training to put "self" aside that it would be the opposite. I just want other's opinion on this question... Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at http://www.geocities.com/taekwondoks/ or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up to e on Events: ="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:24:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Art Names Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In the realm of self-defense many people still in America believe that the Asian world has the lock on the best unarmed defensive skills. Because of this many would rather practice something with an Asian name such as: Karate-Do (The way of the Empty Hand - Japanese in Origin) Kong Soo Do (The way of the Empty Hand - Korean in Origin) Tae Kwon Do (The way of Hand and Foot - Korean in Origin) Aikido (The way of Coordination of Spirit - Japanese in Origin) Hapkido (The way of Coordinated Power - Korean in Origin) Tai Chi Ch'uan (Grand Ultimate Fist - Chinese in Origin) Taeguek Kwon (Grand Ultimate Fist - Korean in Origin) Judo (The Gentle Way - Japanese in Origin) If you have studied long and hard and have found that for some reason the art/system/way that you have practiced for the last two decades (the minimum time in my opinion to even have a grasp of what you have learned) is flawed in someway and you want to make changes and you do. What do you call it? Well if the changes you have made are cosmetic in nature (a change in the order of techniques taught, or the clothing worn, or simply a emphasis in a specific area) and a person can not tell the difference between a student of 1st Dan from your method vs the old one then you are truly still teaching the same art/system/way. Keep the name as it was, you have only put your flair of teaching into the box. If you change the basic philosophy of what you have learned changed the methods in which the techniques are taught as well as the order of learning, if you have changed the why things are done and possibly the how, and maybe even added some techniques that are very useful but were not part of what you originally learned, but have managed to maintain the core of the art/system/way then you are what is called a style of the same art/system/way (Ji Do Kwan Taekwondo vs Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo) If you have changed the entire aspect of the art that you learned (Lets say Taekwondo) and changed everything (such as removing the kicks and focus only on hand striking, brought in techniques from judo instead, and teach a philosophy of say aikido) then you can hardly recognize the core from what you started with it would be wrong to call what you do Taekwondo in any shape or form. Many Hapkido practitioners seem to get upset if Hapkido is used to describe an art that doesn't directly descend from a select group of instructors. They are allowed to be upset. But Hapkido is a term that describes a vast array of artistic expressions. GM Ji Han Jae has had a few different styles of Hapkido as he has matured in life. Hapkido is not a copyrighted term, neither is Karate, or even Taekwondo. There will always be fights over the use of terms. However you can also go the route others have taken and come up with a unique name. I have trademarked R.E.A.L. Defensive Tactics (R.E.A.L. stands for Realistic, Effective, Adaptable, and Legal) It combines that which I have learned from Combat Hapkido, Traditional Hapkido, Taekwondo, Pang Gai Noon Ryu Karate-Do, Kombatan, Arnis, Kobudo, Tactical Shooting, PPCT, CDT, etcetera-etcetera. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:19:40 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's Hapkido Theory Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce- Let me first say that I agree with a lot of what you said on this particular topic. However, I am curious as to what weapons you think are "anachronistic novelties" and why. And what weapons would you consider NOT "anachronistic novelties". And, being a Christian, I would agree with your closing analogy. Of course, I would know that it is NOT christianity so it would be irrelevant to what anybody says. Between me and you (and others here of course) we could easily determine if something was NOT Hapkido because we know Hapkido. Nonetheless, I could see how it could anger some...perhaps! Respectfully, Jeff In a message dated 2/19/2004 6:01:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > and the weapons are > almost all anachrontistic novelties. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:18:48 -0800 (PST) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Starting school stories Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dan, I'm a school owner and have had a school for about six and a half years. I've struggled with it and have had a lot of downs but, I'm finally experiencing a lot of ups. My school was sold to me by someone who had it for about five years and was moving away. I began moving into areas of a different perspective than the one who over saw and sold me the school. It created much friction for both myself and the school. In short it all fell apart and as of a year ago I'm beginning again. I'm experiencing wonderful break-throughs and I'm loving it! My advice to you if you ever decide to open your own school is to be careful of advice. IMHO, everyone has different perception and interpretation of what they are trying to convey. Make sure what ever you do is in accordance with your own integrity. Make sure you research any ideas of your own or others to a satisfactory level before applying it. I like to compare what I'm unfamiliar with to what I am familiar with. Such as trying new things in my school to a highway. No matter how well you think you now the highway there will be pot holes that you don't think should be there. Traveling to long into unfavorable conditions can cause you an accident when you probably should of taken an earlier exit. On and off ramps can lead to new avenues but make sure you have a good idea of where it goes or you can wind up in a bad part of town. That is just a brief example of how I apply this technique. I try to do this as much as possible. I have found it helps me in all areas of my life. I'm hoping this helps you in some way and I'm hoping your post on the DD will get some interesting responses. Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:59:19 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Bruce Sims Manifesto Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Is there a list of "legitimate" teachers? What makes them legitimate? Where is this magical castle that one goes to in order to be properly christened? If this cannot be objectively defined, then the advice is a bit silly? Fair enough? <<>> I dunno...good question. Maybe they're following the example of the people that "invented" Hapkido? If not for innovation and change, you wouldn't have "Hapkido" to argue about in terms of legitimacy, ownership, and "rightness". <<>> Fair enough. Would the parties in question be willing to lay out a detailed history of their training experience (not just a list of ranks and affiliations)? Then again...what the hell would that prove? Something...nothing...everything? Words like "claim" and "title" would tend to denote ownership. Who owns Hapkido? <<>> The converse of that argument could be, "Why do you choose to follow a well worn path?". You seem to be implying that yours is a nobler way. Loyalty, and strict attention to established traditions are fine and good. My problem is that if they called it "Jackyoazzup-do", then there would still be a gallery of critics that would say, "Oh that's just bastardized Hapkido and JuJutsu". But, when they call it Hapkido to give credit to the roots then it's, "Oh they're just trying to steal a name for themselves". The only "right" solution seems to be to attach oneself to a personality, and spend one's remaining days trying to ape their experience while remaining firmly entrenched under the umbrella of that personality's organization/school/social network. Is that about right? You have to give people some points for being up front about it. If they wanted to make up names, and invent some fake lineage...they wouldn't be the first. Instead, they try to be very up-front about the fact that their method is a new twist on things, and go out of their way to make this fact known. Then again...you criticize them along these lines...<<<"To my way of thinking, if one must do as much explaining as folks seem to be doing to rationalize why they are using the term "hapkido" to identify their art, something is wrong from the git.">>>. This is a classic example of, "If you're not doing things the way I do them, you're wrong.". Sorry, "Shinsei dudes"...you can't win either way. <<>> Heard it a million times. Right, wrong, or indifferent...can they make it work on the mat/pavement? Anything else is just philosophizing about things that are better tested on the mat. <<>> And they probably call you an "old fuddy duddy". Who's right? Who's wrong? Who cares? <<>> Who's the earlier contributor? We're not digging back into the H-files again are we? I'd be careful when comparing people to other personalities out there...it's not a great way to make friends. <<>> This is the old, "I can tell the difference between a Ford and a Dodge when I see them, but I couldn't describe the difference to save my life". Were the founders of Hapkido an embarrassment to the Daito-Ryu community when they started their thing? Oh, I forgot...they had mastered the entire Daito-Ryu curriculum before they struck out. <<>> Recurring theme alert!!! Again, who's on the "legit list"? What's the "right way" of doing things? Where is the ultimate tome of knowledge that correctly defines the "legitimate" martial experience in terms of learning/practicing/teaching? Were the founders of Hapkido doing things "the right way"? According to your definition...hell no. But, if we pledge undying allegiance to the well-worn path of those that came before us, we will be "doing the right thing" regardless of the fact that what we're doing is actually the opposite of what the people we're supposedly following were doing. And should our students strike out and do their own thing, they will have unknowingly stumbled upon the path of those that came before "those that came before". Huhh!?!?!?!?!? <<< I DO know that I have spent an awful lot of time advocating for an art to which I owe much. In fact, way too much time to have entrepeneurs as yourself come along and think that they can bask in the same regard as legit practitioners just by mouthing the same words and saying the same things.>>> Those are pretty strong words. In fact, I'd say it's downright condescending. And while we're all having a little fun here being BRUTALLY HONEST, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be a tad bit more respectful in your observations if you were standing face-to-face with these people. Not to imply that you would be intimidated, or that they would use the opportunity that physical proximity affords to wring someone's neck. No, it's just that sitting behind these keyboards tends to whittle away at the common courtesies that we usually extend to our fellow citizens. Instead of pot-shotting everything that comes along that might be cross-ways to the way YOU do things, why don't you update that website of yours with the Bruce Sims Manifesto? I would expect it to contain all of the rules and guidelines that these heartless renegades should be following in order to be considered "legitimate" in the world of "established martial arts" (Read: anything that's more than 100 years old...OOPS, that excludes Hapkido). That way, people can look over the Manifesto (assuming they care), and determine if what they're doing is right, good, and legitimate. I imagine it will save everybody a lot of typing (ok, just you). CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:27:39 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TGT- origin story - Viet Nam Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master West, I know you said only practitioners that you were aware of, but please allow me to engage in a little bragging on my Grandmaster. GM Kim Jin Pal was assigned to Viet Nam in 1965 as ROK CID (Bi Dul Gi Bu Dea - Please forgive the spelling - the translation has something to do with carrier pigeons) He was the one that started the classes in Nha Trang. He left Cho Sung Ho as the head instructor. Han Bong Soo was only there a couple of weeks to give demonstrations. GM Kim also had the main (and I believe only) Hapkido studio in Viet Nam. Photos at http://www.jinpalhapkidodc.com/vn.html . The "color" photo is at Nha Trang. In the demo picture GM Han Bong Soo is seated at the far right . Brian Beach On Tuesday, February 17, 2004, at 04:38 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > I mentioned that I only > knew of three Hapkido practitioners attached to or working for the > Korean > army, Kim-Jung-soo, Baek, Nam-guk in the central highlands and Han, > Bong-soo > in Nha Trang on the coast, --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:29:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, When you are using self defence in the law enforcement world, as most of our practitioners do, practicing things that are "warty" or "not real proficient doesn't make real good sense. As for "taking techniques", we have been integrating this thing with a combined experience of 60+ years, its not a haphazard conglomeration., and it all centers around HKDs Principles. As for your comments on Christianity, are not baptist, Methodists, Penticostals, all Christians? a few differences, but we rally around the centrality of the cross of Christ Jesus. We don't blend what doesn't fit the theory of HKD, just as one can't be a CHRISTIAN without the "CHRIST". --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:37:51 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jye Nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Why do your star drills have six points and mine have eight? NOT trying to be funny, just wondering if there is a difference or a reason or even if I should be thinking at all........... Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:17:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Grant D. Watson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Looking for a taekwondoist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A few months ago I ordered a 1965 copy of Maj. Gen. Choi's _Taekwon-Do_, through an online used-book site, from a store in Wyoming. When my book arrived I was quite surprised to find that tucked inside were two first dan certificates -- one from Chung Do Kwan, one from the KTA -- for a Donald Gordon Sutton. They are dated September 1970. I looked online then to see if I could find someone by that name associated with Tae Kwon Do, knowing my changes were small, and I didn't find him. At my instructor's suggestion I've gone looking for him again. According to AT&T's online phonebook there is a Donald Sutton in Wyoming, but before I started making phone calls I thought I'd ask here if anybody knows him, or knows where to find contact information for him. Your help would be much appreciated. ===== Grant D. Watson, __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest