Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:21:08 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #84 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. conditioning (Eddie Urbistondo) 2. Insurance (Charles Richards) 3. RE: Starting a school (Mary Anne Young) 4. Re: Looking for a taekwondoist (masterm1) 5. Dr. Covington on HKD........... (George Peters) 6. Re: Craig on HKD (Dr. Daryl Covington) 7. Re: Korean Wrestler (Dr. Daryl Covington) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Multiple_Answers?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. insurance (Kevin Luttrell) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Help_with_phobias?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:17:05 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] conditioning Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would highly recommend using Dit Da Jow (bruise liniment) for conditioning. By using the medicine correctly, you can save the joint problems later on. Wing Lam Enterprises sells this liniment. They also sell the Mung bean hitting bags which are excellent for the body. Master Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:27:57 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Insurance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luke Wrote; "Hello, Just wanted to know if anyone has a good and fairly inexpensive insurance company for martial art schools. I'm a starving artist and don't have much money but at the present I need liability insurance. Any suggestions?" Dear Luke, Three suggestions 1. AAU Taekwondo I think $50 for a club membership , $22 per adult and $12 per youth. Just charge the AAU membership at enrollment and annual renewal, or factor your dues appropriately. 2. The Martial Arts Group provides a decent policy through Midlands Insurance 3. Francis Dean seemed to have some decent entry level prices. Good Luck, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Mary Anne Young" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:46:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Starting a school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello there! I am a long time-reader and first-time poster to the_dojang. I am a 1st dan in WTF tae kwon do and recently have started training with some ITF/Hapkido friends (location change for school has forced me away from my home club). My friends started up a branch of their home club this year and so I have first-hand experience on the trials and tribulations of starting a school! First of all I would have to say that you need not be afraid of losing money at first on your venture - after 6 months in business we are barely breaking even. I know martial arts is not (should not) be about the money, but for us at least (students all paying for our university educations) it makes a difference. Second, if you can when you start have some good friends to trains with you and help you out with things such as marketing, recruiting new students and teaching classes. Our core group of students are all good friends and it makes for a friendly atmosphere when new students come to their first class. Make sure though that you're not stealing those good friends from your old club - it doesn't pay to burn bridges. I think I'm losing my train of thought so I'll finish with one last point - don't give up! The experience that myself and my friends are having with this new school is making us appreciate more everything that our former masters did for us to keep everything moving smoothly, as well as making us all the more proud to be martial artists. Good luck with your future venture, Mary Anne Young Than Phong The Planet Martial Arts/The Peaceful Warriors Hapkido Peterborough/Guelph Ontario _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "masterm1" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Looking for a taekwondoist Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:05:26 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir At the risk of being a sensationalist please post these certs on the net with the name, rank and number blanked out. These are rare historical documents and I'm sure all Taekwondoist would enjoying seeing this piece of history. MA as the KTA no longer issues certs. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant D. Watson" To: Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 4:17 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Looking for a taekwondoist > A few months ago I ordered a 1965 copy of Maj. Gen. > Choi's _Taekwon-Do_, through an online used-book site, > from a store in Wyoming. When my book arrived I was > quite surprised to find that tucked inside were two > first dan certificates -- one from Chung Do Kwan, one > from the KTA -- for a Donald Gordon Sutton. They are > dated September 1970. > > I looked online then to see if I could find someone by > that name associated with Tae Kwon Do, knowing my > changes were small, and I didn't find him. At my > instructor's suggestion I've gone looking for him > again. According to AT&T's online phonebook there is > a Donald Sutton in Wyoming, but before I started > making phone calls I thought I'd ask here if anybody > knows him, or knows where to find contact information > for him. > > Your help would be much appreciated. > > ===== > Grant D. Watson, > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:52:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dr. Covington on HKD........... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Wheeeeeehu what ananalogy! I can see you've never been involved in any relationships between the denominations you mentioned. When I was growing up, they ongoing debate between these factions bore the brunt of many jokes in my family, and also was the cause of many hard feelings,as each group was convinced that it truely knew THE WAY. Each was convinced that the way they practiced their faith was the only true way to go to one's just rewards. Not wanting to touch the age-old debate for any reason, I will however venture to say that somehow you are certainly flailing about in the right ballpark. Both the faith and the art began as something derived from an original source, Christianity from the life , teachings and resurrection of Christ, and HKD from the lives and teaching of the original masters. Over time, folks for whatever motivation made changes in both, moving away from the original teaching some, each generation moving away a little more to suit their idea of what THEY wanted to see rather than preserve what was given from the original source. I will not be so condesending as to say that there are no extenuating circumstances, ie; genetic mutation and folks now have more appendages, or perhaps the advent of the utter destruction of evil in the world. Vouchsafeing that these will probably not occur in our generation, I will make no changes in my original art as it was taught to me in direct liniage from the founder of my art, I also make no changes in peoples faiths, given that the teachings were handed down to them by a supreme being responsible for the creation of the universe and our status in the after life and, given the nature of biblical punishment, would not want to argue with and incur the wrath of said being risking a spanking of biblical proportions. Anyway, the analogy brought back memories of being the only Methodist in a Baptist summer camp and filled me with mirth at the thought that anyone would believe that these factions fare any better than the MA's, and in my little corner of the world, probably never will. I DO believe that the best one can do with anything of these natures is to try to find out the original teachings and adhere to them as closely as one is able. NOT stumpjumping for anyone or anything guys, just trying to point out how Martial Arts really IS a mirror of life in all aspects, and I marvel at the wisdoms of all the teachings we are given in our journey. Bruce, I am disappointed that you fail to mention the true way to legit staus: Buy the magazine cover and the article in any popular pulication. Sound familiar? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Take off on a romantic weekend or a family adventure to these great U.S. locations. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 05:54:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Craig on HKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig, WHile as a Baptist Pastor I might not have chosen the same words you did (ha ha), my feelings exactly on your post on HKD. As for lineage, background, etc., we ahve gone to excessive lengths to varify it all. Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae, as well as other students of Choi (Netherlands, etc.) were contacted to verify everything, THen, it was put in print. For those SO interested in our style, they should buy our book. ALso, Our homecoming for Karate for Christ is the first weekend in April. Any and all are invited to step on the mat with us then. Marlin Sims of Kuk Sool will also be teaching along side us. Beyond that, my class has started at the same time, same night, same place for years. Finally, It is good to see that others are as opinionated as me. Thanks for your comments. daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 06:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korean Wrestler Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Supposedly they are group dedicated to practicing "sshirum sonsu", Korean wrestling, as opposed to the westernized "lesulling sonsu ", or western style of wrestling. They have, according to friends in ROK, a bing sshirum kyonggi every month those guys compete in. That's all I've heard, and haven't seen. I may have to go back and watch the replay. Korean martial arts - with ground grappling? Wonder if they call that Hapkido too - just kidding. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:51:13 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Multiple_Answers?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: There is some part of me that is quite sure that people participating in these discussions are being purposely obtuse. All the same, though, I think the non-participating folks (“lurkers”) benefit as we process though these issues. For the sake of convenience I am going to hit a couple of high spots in some of the previous comments. I don’t mean to discount anyones’ contributions. What I am hoping to do is save bandwidth and be as concise as possible. Here goes. To Ian ( who commented on Joes’ students validating what he has done): I think you are very right. I honestly believe that Joes’ students will continue his tradition both in WHAT he does and the WAY that he does it. I would not be surprised to hear a few years from now that they have likewise tasted of the martial arts and feel free to play fast and loose with the parameters of lineage, title, rank, standing and curriculum, each to fit his or her own particular agenda. To “blueknight (who commented on the Hapkido Catch-22): I am not sure why this concept needs to be seen as a “Catch-22” except by people who simply don’t want to invest themselves in doing things in the appropriate fashion. The fact is that the Mu-Do traditions go back for many generations. Currently the name given to these traditions is “Hapkido”. There are a number of variations of Hapkido and most (but not all) of the lineages go back to Choi Yong Sul. If someone wants to use the term “hapkido” and invoke the Ji lineage-- or Joo Bang Lee--- or In Hyuk Suh---etc.-- fine! But then lets stick to that particular tradition of these Mu-Do-s. If somebody wants to go back before Choi--- Ians’ CHOSON- DO goes back to 1850-s--- the MYTBTJ goes back to the 16th century---- Fine! But let them honor THOSE methods and tradtions. And if someone wants to mix and match, at least lets keep it among those methods and techniques used in the Korean martial science instead of introducing material from other cultures but still calling it “Hapkido”. Simple enough, right? To Joeseph Lumpkin (who spoke to validation in its various forms) You owe me absolutely NO explanations. Do what it is that you want to do. My question is not about WHAT you are doing but rather HOW you are doing it. If you have been in Hapkido for 32 years then my next question is why you have not developed a working relationship with a single teacher and perpetuate that particular style of Hapkido. Why start your own system? And why use the name “hapkido” if you have integrated material from other cultures? Why not invoke the name of the Japanese arts? If you like the eclectic approach and want to play fast and easy with your identifications why not just get on board with the ICHF and John Pelligrini? His criteria are relatively flexible, he has a large organization and I am sure you could keep your adiministrative standing with his organization. Take a look at Mike Rowes’ post of Feb 19th. He hits it right on the money! Why continue to invoke Oriental ranks, standing, and arts if you are not actually connected to such a tradition? Thoughts? As far as how I express myself, well, you can characterize that any way you like. To David (who asked about philosophical underpinnings to shoulder throws) : Absolutely! Kano developed Judo because the intent of such arts as Kito- ryu ju-jutsu was focused on joint-breaks. The intent of Judo is more competitive (“play-friendly”). I see a huge difference in philosophy there. A bit ago some on another Net commented that breakfalls in Hapkido tended to seem “harder” than say Aikido. Once again the philosophical underpinnings are different. As I tell my students, in Hapkido I am not interested in becoming “one” with my partner. I want to make him “one” with the floor. Once again a telling philosophical difference. In Kumdo, the concept of competitive play limits the dress (ho-gu), item (juk-to), targets and duration of play. In Kum-Bup the philosophy is about using the sword as a weapon and killing ones’ opponents any way possible then dealing with how one relates to this new-found power in their daily life. Big difference in philosophy! Last but not least-- To Jeff (on “anachronistic novelties”): I have been stopped by police just carrying my muk-guem and juk-to to class. And I don’t imagine I will see Secret Service carrying wol-do around the White House in my lifetime. certainly one can carry a cane and maybe even a dan bong within limits, but most Korean weapons are from another time and another era. The fact that weapons work and MT hand work relate to each other make it worth ones’ while to train with these, but just like any other material it takes time to become facile with the weapon and the way in which it relates to MT hand work. Most people are just too lazy to invest themselves. Give them a wol-do and they are immediately impressed with its sheer size and drama. But how many will train month in and month out to make it part of their catalog of techniques. How many will practice cutting targets with it. How about the Korean flail. Most people won’t train in this weapon. Its too large and ungainly. Most people use the Okinawan nunckukas. More timely, more dramatic, more convenient. Not that most people will take time to learn to do much more than slap them around like they know what they are doing. And what about sword? You cannot believe how many people with Kendo backgrounds are being taken into the HDGD organization and being presented as Kum-do and Kum-Bup instructors. How can they get away with that? Because the students don’t know and could care less WHAT they are being taught as long as they can swing a muk-guem (or Gawd forbid a jin guem) like a LOTR character. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:13:32 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] insurance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Luke, If you are a TKD school I would look into the AAU TKD programs insurance program. Its about $12 per Youth and $20 per Adult per year. Its the most value I have found for the $ so far. Good luck... Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at http://www.geocities.com/taekwondoks/ or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up to e on Events: ="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:25:47 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Help_with_phobias?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Craig: Your post reeks of the sort of phobic response that one finds with anyone who is apparently afraid of using their intellect or discounts anyone else who does. I don't find your questions worth responding to because you already know the answer to most of them, and your loose use of "arguing to the extreme" is used only to deride or embarrass and not to actually identify information. A good example is your reference to a list of "legitimate teachers". We would like to think that belonging to an organization would provide this but have seen that even the organization itself can betray this trust. But it is both assinine and short-sighted not to seek out the most authentic instruction one can find and bond with that source rather than bounce from art to art and whip-stitch together some vague approximation of something and call it something else. But you already know this. Likewise I find your insinuation that I somehow pontificate an idealogical Absolute affrontive both to myself personally and to the Korean traditions in general. But, then, you can do that because like "Patrick" you don't actually take a stand for anything. I think it is telling that you commonly use "whose right? whose wrong? who cares?". I think that it is also revealing that it is this very attitude that makes it possible for the events of the last two years to repeat themselves over and over again. I participate in these Nets because for every ONE person such as myself who speaks for some integrity in the arts there are a dozen or more such as yourself you are focused on rationalizing ways from tearing the structure down, of which the H-files as you call them are a stellar example. If you truely "do not care" why the energy in tearing into what I write without offering an alternative position? Guess its easier to tear things down than build something up, yes? Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest