Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:18:25 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #108 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: ADK Seminar in Chicago (brent b) 2. RE: ATA TKD (was Re: 6th dan for $15.00........) (Rick Clark) 3. 8th dan in ITF and WTF? (Christopher Spiller) 4. WTF/ITF/KKW Certs (Rick Clark) 5. motovation (Richard Tomlinson) 6. Jackson (J R Hilland) 7. Who are those wierdo's in the short pants? (L. Veuleman) 8. Re: Jackson (Ray Terry) 9. Pen and Knife Guns (Ray Terry) 10. kukkiwon certification (Eddie Urbistondo) 11. Re: 8th dan in ITF and WTF? (Donald Pillow) 12. Kicks and Certs (henry henderson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:23:05 -0800 (PST) From: brent b Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ADK Seminar in Chicago To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, There is an upcoming Rick Clark seminar in Chicago that I would like to invite anyone and everyone to attend. This is the annual Ao Denkou Kai (http://www.ao-denkou-kai.org/) winter camp. For those of you who do not know Professor Clark (who is a member of this list), he holds advanced ranks in a number of arts, including Tae Kwon Do. His insight into forms and application of forms is second to none. I met Professor Clark off of this list many years ago and my view of my martial arts has chanced drasticly since then. Please join us if you can; you will be happy that you did. Below are the details for the winter camp. For those of you in the UK who may be interested in seeing one of Professor Clarks seminars, please see his web site for his upcoming tour. 2004 Midwest Winter Camp Martial Arts Seminar March 19, 20, 21 Eola Community Center 555 S. Eola Rd, Aurora IL 60504 Pressure Points, Joint Manipulation Taiji, Qigong Grappling, Ground-fighting Rick Clark Ao Denkou Jitsu * Internationally recognized expert in the use of pressure points * Author of “75 Down Blocks” and “Pressure Point Fighting” Jimmy Tang Taiji & Qigong Dave Tester Shin Gi Tai Jujitsu Open to all martial artists regardless of style or rank. Fri 10am-6pm, Sat 9am-6pm, Sun 9am-3pm $200 for all 3 days ( for folks who cannot make all 3 days: Fri AM - $25 / Fri PM - $60 Sat AM - $30 / Sat PM - $60 Sun AM - $30 / $Sun PM - $30 ) 20% discount for groups of 5 or more from the same school. ---------------------------------------------------------------- A **TENTATIVE** schedule - subject to change without notice: * Friday * 10-12 Pressure points / kata applications * 1-3:30 Grappling / Groundfighting * 4-6 Pressure points and kata applications * Saturday * 9-11 Taiji / Qigong * 11-12:30 Pressure points / kata applications * 1:30 - 3:30 Grappling / Groundfighting * 4 - 6 Pressure points / kata applications * Sunday * 9-11 Taiji / Qigong * 11-12:30 Grappling / Groundfighting * 1:30 - 3:00 Pressure points / kata applications ---------------------------------------------------------------- Motels: Super 8 630.898.5419 This motel is the most convenient (about 1 mile from the community center). Motel 6 630.851.3600 This motel is further away (several miles), but easy to find from where we'll be, and the least expensive in the area. ----------------------------------------------------------------- For directions or additional information, contact Dave Carr, dccarr@quietdragons.com, 630.863.4895 or see http://www.quietdragons.com/srbd_events.html Thank you. Brent Balfanz Yudansha ADK Minnesota, USA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ATA TKD (was Re: 6th dan for $15.00........) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:37:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark, >Mr. Rick Clark wrote: > >[snip] >>As I remember he was teaching at the Air Force Base where Richard Reed >>was a student and eventually brought Hang Un Lee to the US and opened >>the schools in Omaha. From there they went on to found MTA and later >>ATA. >> >>At that time Lee taught the Pyung-Ahn set of forms. > >According to the official history from the ATA: > http://www.ataonline.com/about/history.asp >"The ATA had used the Chang Hun Taekwondo forms since 1969 -- and the "Pinan" >forms prior to that -- but he had noticed something missing in the forms." >I would imagine with translation, Pinan and PyungAhn are the same? There are >moves in the ATA forms that remind me of similar moves in the PyungAhn forms. A >move or two, here or there, by no means an entire segment. Just a hint, perhaps, or >maybe this was Eternal Grand Master Lee's well thought out way of holding to >tradition while still creating something new? Yes the Pyung-ahn forms are the same as Pinan and they are the same as Heian. Well when I say the same there will be small differences - just as you will find from style to style and even school to school. The Pyung-ahn forms came Japan, which got them from Okinawa via Itosu who created them. As a note Gen. Choi has all of these forms in his first book on Tae Kwon Do that was first published in the 60's as I remember. > >This all said, are we ATA folks considered among the TKD practioneers of the >world? I am not a person who believes the only Tae Kwon Do is from a WTF, ITF, or KKW certified instructor. There are many of us who started in Tae Kwon Do before there was a WTF or a KKW, I would guess there are some that predate ITF, but not many Americans I would guess. > >In the spirit, >Mark Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:02:05 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 8th dan in ITF and WTF? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Ok, I'm out of lurk mode for a minute. My TKD Grandmaster has an 8th Dan in ITF and an 8th Dan in WTF, and holds a 9th Dan in UTB TKD. He is 82 years young. George Petrotta<< Mr. Petrotta, If you don't mind me asking, who is your TKD GM? An 8th dan in both the ITF and WTF would seem pretty rare in my experience (and quite an accomplishment). I'm assuming he's a Korean national? Up until a coupole of years ago the ITF had very few 8th dans. Then there were several people in Argentina who were promoted shortly before the General passed away. Besides that there are very few who got promoted to thast rank (well, non-Koreans, anyway ;-). Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Rick Clark" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:07:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF/ITF/KKW Certs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ladies and Gentlemen: I hope you consider what I am about to write and think about it before you mail back to comment on my post. When a group or organization says "your rank is not legitimate unless it comes from our group" you have to stop a moment and think what is really being said here and what are the ulterior motives of the group? Consider for example just a few questions: 1) Who gave rank to those who were the founders of an art? 2) What was the rank of those individuals? 3) How long were they in the rank before they were promoted? 4) Do they even have rank (case in point Dr. Kim)? 5) Why is it only "their" rank is acceptable? 6) What is the benefit to the organization by being the sole outlet for rank? With regurard to Tae Kwon Do it seems clear that over the years Korea has tried to secure a hold on the issuance of black belt certificates and impress on the general public and those who practice Tae Kwon Do that a Korean certificate from there is the only "official" certificate. ITF, WTF, KKW, ATA, any certificate for that matter is truly only important if you want to use it in that organization or to participate in their "sponsored events". For the rest of us, it really does not matter what that pice of paper says a persons rank is. The real test (value of the certificate) is when they tie their belt on and step out on the floor. As a side point remember that martial arts were allowed to be taught after the liberation of Korea from Japan in 1945. Further Karate was not even introduced into Japan until 1922 (a 23 year period of time) and from 1945 till 2004 is only 59 years. Or another way to look at it is Karate has been public for about 82 years now. Not a very long time. Or, as another way to look at it, I have been involved in the marital arts since 1962 (42 years) about half the time Karate has been public. Later, Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:33:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] motovation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A great topic.... no, martial arts is not for everyone, no matter how good a school or instructor. There are those who only wish to achieve a black belt and move on. There are those who practice because their children are in your school, if the children move on some stay, some leave. I have noticed that the blue and purple ranks seem to be a deciding point of weather to continue on. There are highrt ranks and black belts who wish to only train and not assist , and those who gladly assist every moment they can. There are black belts who leave, come back and are not able to peform techniques as well because of not training for 6 months and are quickly frustrated and leave again. There are those who leave because they are unhappy or bored, usualy something they can bring up with their instructor so it can be fixed but dont, they just choose to leave.You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. But you can be the best instructor you can be. Being aware of each individual's training needs is also important so a one on one trusting relationship develops. I have loved TKD from day one and I owe it to my instructors.They never gave up on me, made me go beyound what I thought possible for me to do and have and are a constant inspiration. As I trained I became more loyal to them and my school and now run my own adult classes.... I was never asked to help clean the dojang, or assist or teach, I have just wanted to. But I am not every student. So ... as much as it is sad to loose students, if you have been your best, your techniques and spirit are pure, there will be those who will stick around and become part of the core of the school. That core becomes the role model and there are bound to be more who wish to follow. sandy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:55:29 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Dr. Kimm wanted a group picture with EVERYONE! So after that finally was done, we took a DD group picture and then a instructors group picture. Thanks for the quick post of the DD and instructors pictures. We are still looking for the group one of everybody! Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:45:44 -0800 (PST) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Who are those wierdo's in the short pants? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Digest, Instead of just saying what a great time "I" had at the seminar, I wanted to actually say my students had a wonderful time out there. My green belt Drew really enjoied the part where MI Mangum makes bending your thumb the fastest way to dirty words, and everybody in general just had a splended time. And everyone always has a blast with Master Booth, who never misses an opportunity to give everyone a hard time. Of course I mentioned to my students that my ultimate goal is to get my TKD (Kong soo do according to Master Mac) group to come to jackson as a regular event. Thats right, more of us short pant people. As long as of course JR is okay with that, no point in getting THROWN back to louisiana. :) Enjoyed meeting new friends Sexton and Thomas, and of course seeing all the old friends from last year. Charles, Bruce, and Chris L.? What the heck guys? Just kidding, hope to see you all next year. YITMA Charlie Veuleman ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jackson To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:11:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > << lined up with Dr. Kimm.>>> > > Dr. Kimm wanted a group picture with EVERYONE! So after that finally was > done, we took a DD group picture and then a instructors group picture. > Thanks for the quick post of the DD and instructors pictures. We are still > looking for the group one of everybody! It is currently available at www.hapkido.com. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:13:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Pen and Knife Guns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taken from The Law Enforcement Trainer, Jan/Feb 2004 Pen and Knife Guns Firearms disguised as other objects are neither new nor novel; however, since passage of federal firearms laws in the 1930s, they have been tightly regulated, had stiff penalties associated with their sale and possession, and not been readily available as a commercial commodity. In recent times, law enforcement has only encountered the manufacture and sale of guns disguised as pens and knives from clandestine factories. In the past, the possession of such weapons has been found to be by criminals who desired extreme concealability and non-detection during law enforcement searches. With today threat from terrorists, these types of weapons can provide a unique means of smuggling a firearm into a restricted area. These types of firearms obviously pose a danger to the safety of law enforcement officers. Due to a technical loophole in the federal law dealing with the firing position of the weapon, the Stinger Manufacturing Corporation, Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, is now manufacturing and offering for commercial sale PenGun and Knifegun Pistols. Each of these disguised weapons operates as single shot pistols, firing .22 caliber LR Rimfire or .17 HMR Rimfire ammunition. It should also be noted that the Stinger Company plans in the future on selling a "Sniper" 18" barrel for its pen gun, as well as additional calibers. Both weapons can be easily concealed in clothing apparel pockets, boots, briefcases, underneath automobile seats, mats, dashboards, and among tools or other items of like size, etc. Without close scrutiny during pat downs and other searches, an officer could easily fail to notice either firearm as a lethal weapon, thus placing him or herself in danger. In addition, because these firearms are disguised as other items (in particular the pengun), detecting such as firearms at security checkpoints, i.e. entrances to government buildings, airport gates, and similar areas requires knowledge of their existence and training in their identification. As with all firearms, caution should always be taken when attempting to unload; however, disguised weapons produce added problems by their very nature. Due to their unique configuration, extreme caution should be taken when unloading these firearms. It is recommended that only personnel familiar or trained with the weapon perform the task in a safe area. Specifications for both weapons are as follows: Stinger PenGun Pistol Caliber .22 LR Rimfire .17 HMR Rimfire (optional conversion kit) More Coming Soon! Operation Single Shot Weight (empty) 5 oz. Length, overall 5.6" (4.2" folded) Diameter 5/8" to 1/2" Tapered Barrel 2" long, six grooves, RH twist of 1 in 14" 4140 ordnance steel "Sniper" 18" Barrel Coming Soon! Receiver 303 Stainless Action Cocks on opening Safety Manual Firing Pin Block Handle 416 Stainless Finish Receiver and Handle, natural stainless. Barrel nickel plated. Limited Edition 24K Gold plate version available Case Black "Jewel Box" embossed case List price .22 LR Stainless Steel - $250 USD Source: Stingerpengun.com ------------------------------------------------ Stinger Survivor KnifeGun Caliber .22 LR &.17 HMR Blade AUS-8 Steel with Blasted Finish Handle Material Coco Bob Wood (optional materials available) Length 3.70" Width 1.09" Weight 12 Oz Holster Supplied Classification Same as Stinger Penpistol (non-NFA) Suggested Retail $375 Source: Stingerpengun.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:31:31 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] kukkiwon certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Balfanz, Don't get me wrong or the wrong assumption about certification? To me, the only certification worth a damn, is the one the instructors sign. We are just making a point to you about the situation with certificates and Taekwondo today. I have had black belts that come to me from the ATA and the USTA (United States Taekwondo Alliance not to be confused with Grand Master Richard Chun's USTA) that I have offered purple belts to (our school's belts go white -- yellow -- purple) and I was being nice. It would be great if there was an assesment test for martial artists to see if they are worthy of your rank. If that were the case, there would be a lot less Black Belts in Taekwondo today. Master Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Dingodog1@webtv.net (Donald Pillow) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:30:35 -0500 (EST) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 8th dan in ITF and WTF? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to add that Grandmaster Ju Hun Kim of Charlotte, N.C. is also recognized as 9th dan by both ITF and WTF. He has owned and operated Kim School of Tae Kwon Do continuously for about 40 years, one of the longest operating Dojangs in North and South Carolina if not the entire country. He emphasizes hands more than any Tae Kwon Do school I've ever heard of; I believe harkening back to a time alluded to by one of our recent posters and encourages juuuust enough contact. This means that if you don't as Master Kim say's "Block sir!", you will regret it. There have been episodes over the years that I've had related to me where Taekwondo practitioners have come there visiting or wishing to train there where they've left never to be heard from again, sometimes leaving their belt in the dressing room. I can attest personally that when I started there after witnessing my technique and form that he said almost inaudibly "No power, no twist". I think that that was his frank opinion as I also know that virtually every other student that came there to train, if they were WTF/sport trained also began again as a white belt. In some cases they progressed quicker but they started as white belts. I have purchased a book by Grandmaster Kang Uk Lee, from the UK that lists a Tang Soo Do lineage, worldwide and it lists a Ju Hun Kim of USA. I entered the school once wearing a Tang Soo Do sweatshirt I had and in addressing him we began a conversation where he asked me where I trained Tang Soo Do and he talked a few moments about the prevalent stances and techniques that were signatures to Tang Soo Do such as the prevalence of knife hand and back stance at lower levels. I told him my interest in TSD basically stemmed from the knowledge that TSD predated WTF/sport Taedwondo and I felt probably more practical for self defense and he said though I can't remember the exact words he used, that he was knowledgeable and capable of teaching TSD. I believe that at some point in the TKD/MDK timeline that he was a TSD practitioner. The style that Master Kim teaches is Moo Duk Kwon Tae Kwon Do.(Korean Karate) I was reading the opinions of some other Dojang digesters and it is amazing how many practitioners have very tenuous grasps of the origins, lineage and evolution of the various Korean styles they practice. I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised because in my experience these masters, in most cases, aren't very forthcoming, in some cases promoting mythcal origins that they know to be false, but good for business. I know that when I first discovered this for myself I felt betrayed. My first instructor was a personal friend of mine for years. He was technically and tactically proficient in his sport and promoting the "company policy". Perhaps he didn't know better therefore didn't recognize the contradiction to the tenets he espoused. For those who are just having their consiousness raised, it's all there for an enquiring mind to see, with a little and I mean, a little effort. There are many threads in the archives of DD addressing this, for starters. These are just my humble opinions in response to several posts recently read by myself on "the digest". I hope that everyone who reads this realizes that these are merely my perceptions and I am not characterizing GM Kim or his fine school as any "Cobra Kai" or anything; frankly I've never seen any students as consistently able, impressive or competent as at THE Kim School of Tae Kwon Do. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "henry henderson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:37:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks and Certs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mrs. lavery It depends on the way you kick. I was taught in karate that we kick with the balls of our feet on a roundhouse. In tae Kwon Do i was taught to kick with the top, which i personally prefer. I think its whatever they feel comfortable with. Just get over the fear of possibly jamming or breaking your toes, then they should be alright. Secondly, about the kukkiwon, there are alot of international and national events that ONLY take kukkiwon, Jr Olypmics any USTU event only take kukkiwon. I know alot of students who complete locally or state level with school certs. I think its good for you to have a kukkiwon cert seeing as how its well known and whats been going on now they dont care about anything else but kukkiwon or ITF. To anyone, i hear alot of talk about GM Benko and the ITA, are we to say that they arent well known organization? Or are their certificates of rank not taken at any school? I know that some schools might switch it over to kukkiwon if its first degree. Just wondering, because i will get kukkiwon, but i will have a dan ranking in ITA. Henry Henderson,II Cisco Certified Network Associate CompTIA Network + Certified _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest