Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:02:13 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #111 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hello (Master Arce) 2. Re: Hello (Ray Terry) 3. Re: Dojang Digest group photo (Ray Terry) 4. Jack Hwang 9th dan (DITTER66@aol.com) 5. New Hapkidoin (ABurrese@aol.com) 6. Round House - Ball of Foot (Bernard Maginnity) 7. RE: legitimate rank (Joey Stinson) 8. What does your rank mean in the street (Tammy & Greg Hindley) 9. Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi (andrew pratt) 10. Re: 8th dan in ITF and WTF? (Donald Pillow) 11. Re: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 8th dan in ITF and WTF? (Donald Pillow) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:08:48 -0800 (PST) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hello Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just saying Hello to the DD List.... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hello To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:10:19 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Just saying Hello to the DD List.... Mr. Arce, If you are still affiliated with that chubby GM wannabe from down Florida way then you're probably better off on some other forum. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dojang Digest group photo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:19:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > NB Ray, just a suggestion how about a DD members picture board, perhaps with > a short resume, where DD members could submit a picture of themselves (not > compulsory!!) I'd be happy to host such a beast at martialartsresource.com, but someone would have to write it (create it). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: DITTER66@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:01:54 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jack Hwang 9th dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Dojang that I train at Jack Hwang is the instructor, He is 72 years young and believes that you must earn your belt, he is very honorable and he always brings out the best in a person I think very much of him as does all of his students and instructors IM inquiring about the 9th dan, is he the Hwang that Chris was writing about? just curious. Mary in Oklahoma :-) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:13:34 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] New Hapkidoin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, Sounds like I missed a great time in Jackson. Having been there the last couple years, I know I did, but I had a pretty full weekend here. I'm now the proud father of a baby girl, who was born Monday evening. Cosette Hom Burrese. 6 pounds 15 onces. We just got home from the hospital this afternoon, and all is well. Mom and baby doing great, just real tired. Dad very proud of both of them. http://www.newbabynews.net/hospitals/com28/public/com28birthannouncement.pl?ba byID=h28-2005 Here's a link to the hospital page with a picture! Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:36:11 +1100 From: "Bernard Maginnity" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Round House - Ball of Foot Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Wendy The simplest way to think of a round house kick with the ball of the foot is to look at a correct side kick. This has the heel forced out, possibly a foot blade, and parallel to the toes. Now pull your toes back like a front kick and you have the foot position. To execute the kick all you have to do is the standard round kick motion but strike with ball of the foot instead of the top. Try standing next to a wall. Execute a turning kick to the wall and your ball of foot will connect with the wall. This gives you a feeling of how your foot should feel when you do the kick. There are a number of reasons to use this kick. Many Instructors will teach hard target, soft tool, soft target hard tool. Basically, you hurt yourself less if you punch something soft like a stomach and use a palm for example to strike bone. I hope that makes sense. The easiest way to think of ball of foot turning kick is that it is for stomach or soft areas as it provides more penetration. While top of foot is better to strike to the face. I hope some of this makes sense. Kind regards Bernie Maginnity -----Original Message----- From: wendy lavery [mailto:wensworld@netzero] Sent: Wednesday, 31 December 2003 7:00 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] I have a couple questions for ya'll :) Hello! My first question is about kukkiwon certificates.I have a 15 yr old son that just got his Black Belt,because he doesnt like to compete we got him a school certificate, with the understanding that in the future should he want to compete internationally we could then send for a kukkiwon certificate,Is this a bad idea? will you please explain?? The other question I have is a couple weeks ago ya"ll were discussing a round house using the ball of your foot rather than the top, when I asked our Ass. Instuctors {our main Instructor is still in Iraq:( } they had no idea how to help me figure it' out but now with the "standard poomse's" our forms have changes and thats one of them,so would someone PLEASE explain to me how thats done?and also what the differance in the two is? Thanks, Sorry about the long post! Wendy Lavery NOTICE The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. Mission Australia has implemented anti-virus software, and whilst all care is taken, it is the recipient's responsibility to ensure that any attachments are scanned for viruses prior to use. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joey Stinson" To: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:41:15 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: legitimate rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would have to agree with Prof. Clark here. I have heard this squabble and debate since the 1980's. I believe it all boils down to "my school is better than yours." We all know it would be boring if no drama concerning training legitimacy were taking place. Who cares where rank comes from, as long as students are learning and progressing. Children are being taught valuable life lessons, and adults are being trained to protect themselves in an actual confrontation. I have not personally heard of any assailant asking to see certification anyway. If I am satisfied with the training I am receiving, then why should I be concerned with where my certificate is coming from! Personally, I would rather my instructors signature be the one on the paper than someone in Korea I have never met. I have enough pride and respect of my instructor to trust his judgement, if I didn't, I would not train with him. Joey Stinson, 4th Dan Cumberland Martial Arts Prof. Clark wrote- I hope you consider what I am about to write and think about it before you mail back to comment on my post. When a group or organization says "your rank is not legitimate unless it comes from our group" you have to stop a moment and think what is really being said here and what are the ulterior motives of the group? Consider for example just a few questions: 1) Who gave rank to those who were the founders of an art? 2) What was the rank of those individuals? 3) How long were they in the rank before they were promoted? 4) Do they even have rank (case in point Dr. Kim)? 5) Why is it only "their" rank is acceptable? 6) What is the benefit to the organization by being the sole outlet for rank? With regurard to Tae Kwon Do it seems clear that over the years Korea has tried to secure a hold on the issuance of black belt certificates and impress on the general public and those who practice Tae Kwon Do that a Korean certificate from there is the only "official" certificate. ITF, WTF, KKW, ATA, any certificate for that matter is truly only important if you want to use it in that organization or to participate in their "sponsored events". For the rest of us, it really does not matter what that pice of paper says a persons rank is. The real test (value of the certificate) is when they tie their belt on and step out on the floor. As a side point remember that martial arts were allowed to be taught after the liberation of Korea from Japan in 1945. Further Karate was not even introduced into Japan until 1922 (a 23 year period of time) and from 1945 till 2004 is only 59 years. Or another way to look at it is Karate has been public for about 82 years now. Not a very long time. Or, as another way to look at it, I have been involved in the marital arts since 1962 (42 years) about half the time Karate has been public. Later, Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Tammy & Greg Hindley" To: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:52:03 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] What does your rank mean in the street Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all! Just some thoughts. I have been reading the DD for a few years mostly lurking. I realized years ago that if you just close your mouth and open your ears all will be revealed in time. Cream always rises to the top. Imposters eventually fade away. All I wanted to say was how overwhelmed I am now when I come home from a day of carpentry or a day of bail enforcement. Both sides of the scale, both extremes and the reason I get fuddled is because of the constant posturing, prove this prove that, my master is better then your master, or I've never heard of him, or they do not hold rank in our organization I see on the DD. It seems a little juvenile. OMG it is so funny sometimes how everyone has to compete in EVERYTHING. Maybe this is OUR nature as martial artists to compete so fiercely. I suppose it might be. We are different. I don't practice for anyone but myself. I know what I am and what I'm capable of when I look in the mirror alone. Rank really means nothing to anyone but you. Unfortunately too many martial artists are sucked into the ranking game. Really means nothing trust me when your scrapping on the asphalt at 3am in the middle of downtown Portland. Lots of young fighters trying to prove themselves. Anything can and did happen. Rank means nothing when you're fighting in Iraq for your life and the lives of all people. I just tell people I am new at this and lets workout. If they are worth their beans they understand. If not...nothing to stress about. I have fought for my life and the lives of others many times in my 40 young years, all across the nation. I have fought most all kinds of competitions, I have fought life. I would change nothing really about my life it has made me what I am. A Martial Artist, Soldier for GOD, father, husband and happy. I know most of you can relate and have had similar experiences. Just struck me funny today. I'm going downstairs and get on the mat with my two young sons (9 & 13). Just train. >Mr. Clark wrote: >"When a group or organization says "your rank is not legitimate unless it >comes from our group" you have to stop a moment and think what is really >being said here and what are the ulterior motives of the group? >Consider for example just a few questions: >1) Who gave rank to those who were the founders of an art? >2) What was the rank of those individuals? >3) How long were they in the rank before they were promoted? >4) Do they even have rank (case in point Dr. Kim)? >5) Why is it only "their" rank is acceptable? >6) What is the benefit to the organization by being the sole outlet for >rank?" Too many people just give in and don't question authority. Mr. Clark poses a GOOD thread and good points. Not one which you are forced to defend yourself, double check your history, prove yourself. Blah blah blah. I am sorry I missed the seminar in Jackson. I was busy with another engagement. Would love to meet so many people on the DD. Would love to get some mat time. I'm planning on the next one. Now I'm rambling. Just my 2 cents Take care Greg --__--__-- Message: 9 From: andrew pratt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:55:32 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, Jye posted a long article on the 'Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi ' > defeated. Near the end of this conflict, a Chinese military text entitled, Ki Hyu Shin Zu, authored by the Chinese military strategist and martial artist, Chuk, Kye Kwang was discovered. The text had been acquired from a slain Japanese General. This manuscript was then presented to Korean King Sun Jo (1567 - 1608). Within its pages was detailed a system of Chinese weapons and hand-to-hand combat, designed specifically for warfare. King Sun Jo was so impressed by the methods presented in this text that he invited Chinese Generals and Chinese Martial Art Masters who employed this system to visit his capital - which they did. From this contact, he ordered one of his Generals, Han Kyo, to take what he had learned from both the text and the demonstrations a! nd design a new system of battlefield combat. < This is an interesting story that I haven't heard before. Jye, do you have sources for this? I am not sure why the Korean's (properly Chosonites?) needed to acquire the manual from a slain Japanese general. After all, there were Ming soldiers in Korea for the whole 7 years of combat who were trained using this manual. Moreover, this tale just begs the question as to where the Japanese general got the manual from (since his country was at war with China as well as Korea and prior to the war there had been little contact between Japan and China for the previous one hundred years.... I am not sure that Sun Jo(sic) was ever aware of the manual or requested a demonstration of the techniques. I know that the senior wartime state councillor Yu Songnyong was aware of the book and tasked Han Kyo with obtaining a copy. Han Kyo's task was not to 'design a new system' but to introduce the Ming techniques to the Choson military corpus of techniques. Incidentally, I don't think Han Kyo was a general either. If memory serves me right he was a scholar (it's been a while, maybe I am mistaken). Regards, Andrew Pratt Project Manager Synovate Business Consulting Phone (822) 3277 9668 Fax (822) 313 4929 12th Fl. The Korea Economic Daily Building 441, Chunglim-dong, Chung-ku, Seoul, 100-791 Korea www.synovate.com The information in this e-mail may be confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us and do not copy or disclose the contents to any other person. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Dingodog1@webtv.net (Donald Pillow) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:54:26 -0500 (EST) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 8th dan in ITF and WTF? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yessir, I went back and read the letter that I responded to as well as my reply. I did not mean to imply that GM Kim was promoted to that level within the ITF or the WTF, but that he is RECOGNIZED as 9th dan by the previous administrations of each. Amongst the documents and assorted awards that he displays in his dojang is his certificate attesting to his promotion to 9th dan by Kukkiwon. I am sure that he has colleagues who chose to be affiliated to one or in some instances both of these organizations but as far as I know he has never been a member of the International Taekwon-do Federation. I believe that when the schism occurred where many Moo Duk Kwon practitioners chose to call what they practiced either MDK TKD or MDK TSD that GM Kim was here in America. I believe that initially he was in the D.C. area, sort of "apprenticeing" or getting indoctrinated to American culture with GM Jhoon Rhee before moving to the Charlotte area where he has remained. My terminology, not meant to be literally interpreted. I do know that though GM Kim teaches "traditionally", rarely employing the walking stances that WTF Taekwondo uses in many of their beginner and intermediate forms, and teaches the "Chun Gi" forms himself, he is also certified by the WTF as a trainer in their style of sparring. Master Kim, as he's normally addressed, was a member of the South Korean military and received some of his training while there. Evidently he acquired the ability to select whether he would begin to promote the style he taught as General Choi's Taekwon-Do or as something else; I previously referred to his allusions to TSD in my first letter. Obviously he found it more true to his ideals to remain independent. Over the years I'm sure he has maintained both friendships with advanced practitioners who are highly placed in Kukkiwon as one might expect and similarly ranked colleagues who chose to remain with General Choi's organization. He also has friends who chose to do as he did and fend for themselves as independents. I know that GM Kim was at some time subordinate to General Choi, whether in the army or in one of the other martial arts organizations that he headed, I'm not sure. These relationships along with his demonstrated ability, maturity(64 years old), and his continuos advocacy and promotion of Korean martial art undoubtedly contributed to his continued acknowledgement as an expert worthy of his current designation. GM Kim has never claimed to be a member of the ITF or WTF that I know of. Sorry for the confusion. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Dingodog1@webtv.net (Donald Pillow) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:08:46 -0500 (EST) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 8th dan in ITF and WTF? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, that is his website. As I've since corrected, Grandmaster Kim has not been promoted within those organizations, since he is and has always chosen to remain independent. He is acknowledged by his peers in sundry organizations as exceedingly worthy of the designation, 9th dan. My apology for any misunderstanding. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest