Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:31:07 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #116 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament (KDOA@aol.com) 2. Round kick (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Humility (Rudy Timmerman) 4. RE: Roundhouse instep/ball (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 5. RE: Scott Shaw (Stovall, Craig) 6. Kicking safely (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Kicking Trees (Randall Sexton) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Masters?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Kicking?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. Charles Sereff & General Choi (Robert Martin) 11. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Lim_Seminar_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 12. Chuck Sereff (C. Bonner) 13. Ankle surgery for Charles (Charles Richards) 14. Re: Master Terry's Comments (Dewitt, Garrett) 15. name game (Marble, Alan) 16. Re: RE: Scott Shaw (Ray Terry) 17. RE: 90% at Cho Dan? (was: KKW/ITF differences) (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: KDOA@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:50:16 EST To: policedo@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Alliance Police Department, Alliance City Schools, Marlington Local Schools, and Regina Coeli/St. Joseph Schools are sponsoring the 4th Annual Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament on May 1, 2004. All proceeds from this event are used to support area drug and positive decision making educational programs such as Students Against Destructive Decisions and Kick Drugs Out of Alliance. This event holds national and state sanctions from the Professional Karate Commission and the International TaeKwon-Do Union will take place at the newly remodeled Alliance High School. (Next to historic the Glamorgan Castle) This year’s special guests: Martial Arts Movie Star and Kickboxing Legend Don “The Dragon” Wilson and Hong Kong Movie Star and Recording Artist Sifu Vincent Lyn. Both stellar martial artists will be conducting seminars the evening before the event and will be present on the day of the tournament for autographs and photos. For more information on this event check out our website at: http://members.aol.com/kdoa2/tournament1.html or write us at KDOA@aol.com. You can, also, register on line by following this link: http://www.active.com/event_detail.cfm?event_id=1092809 Jeffrey W. Helaney Assistant Chief of Police/ KDOA Program Director C/O Alliance Police Department 470 E. Market St. Alliance, Ohio 44601 (330) 823-5532 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:59:18 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Round kick Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick writes: > Just a few thoughts on the instep roundhouse kick. When I started TKD > - you did not see an instep round house kick in the > dochang at all (at least those I was around) and you did not see > Karate types doing either. You did begin to see it in tournaments > when the > bend in the ankle could give you a couple of extra inches reach - esp. > if you had on foot pads. The advantage of a couple more inches in a > point tournament is obvious. Hello Rick: During the old days of competition (without pads and much heavier contact), the roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot (Dool Rae Cha Ki) would now and then cause injury and cause a competitor to be disqualified. Neither competitor wanted to lose or win by DQ; so, when footpads were introduced, we switched to the top of foot round house (Bahl Deung Cha Ki) where the padding would help prevent DQ (no padding on the ball of the foot even with foot gear). For the extra inches??? This came about after competition tamed a bit more and hitting through the target area was frowned on. In fact, that is when purchasing larger sized foot pads for extra reach came in to play as well. Before GM Rhee's invention, if you slapped someone with a top of foot roundhouse, you would never get a point awarded (for weak technique). Moreover, you would get your butt kicked in the counter attack. I just chuckle when I see today's competitors get a point for technique that is so fundamentally poorly executed that the delivery of it nearly knocks the attacker himself down. If you lost balance delivering a kick in the old days, there is no way you would get a point. I'm sure some of the other old timers on the list remember that well. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:07:58 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Humility Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Keith writes: > if you are really a Master of your art, then you should be humble > enough not to refer to yourself as "Master so and so" or sign your > name as > "Master so and so". Hello Keith: IMHO, anyone who has a need to pat himself on the back is obviously not quite sure of him or herself. To gain respect, it is always best to allow others to sing your praises, as doing so yourself makes you appear nothing short of a pompous. In fact, it usually has the opposite effect. Very few people even like a person who sings his own praises, let alone respect him or her. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:35:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Roundhouse instep/ball Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jim wrote: "In our Hapkido/Ninjutsu school......" Hmmm, that's an interesting combination. Let me guess, after you totally break everything in your opponent's wrist, elbow, and shoulder by performing Cho Keub Son Mok Sool # 4, you finish them off with a roundhouse kick (using the BALL of the foot) to the diaphram and a throwing star to the skull?? :) Sorry, couldn't help it.... James Morgan --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:27:51 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Scott Shaw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Well, I agree. My comment about Scott Shaw being in a lot of magazines was more of a statement of fact. I hope I didn't leave the impression that media coverage makes one "legitimate" in my eyes. Far from it, actually. Still waiting on objective comments about Shaw. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:39:35 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicking safely Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig writes: > it takes a little more > time to properly cultivate the ball of foot strike as opposed to the > instep Hello Caig: As usual, some very good points in your post; however, IMHO the ball of the foot is actually being walked on on a daily basis by most (unless crawling home from a night out:), and therefore is more likely tougher than the top of the foot which rarely get walked on:) In the art I teach, there are three roundhouse kicks. We use the toe kick for softer targets that need penetration, the ball of the foot is usually delivered from the rear foot as it has the best ability to take the hit, and the top of the foot is used as one would use the jab (from the front leg). As with a good jab, this strike can in itself be quite devastating when delivered to softer targets such as the neck. The reason for using the top of foot roundhouse from the front leg as in a jab is simple. The extra power derived from rear leg delivery might damage your own foot. For the same reason, we use the blade (edge of foot, with big toe pulled up and other toes down) of a side kick from the front leg (target the knee etc), and we use the side thrust kick (whole bottom of foot) for kicks that need to withstand more impact (such as rear leg delivery, skipping, or sliding). Our basic premise is to "match the tool" use in the attack or defense to the target and delivery method used. I am sure that some schools still practice "conditioning" the top of foot, shins, etc. etc. but IMHO that will eventually cause damage to the conditioned areas that were not originally designed for that purpose. For example, the sole of your foot is designed to absorb the impact of walking, and we put many miles on that surface naturally. To be sure, one can condition other parts of the body: however, if nature and evolution has not prepared that particular part of the anatomy for conditioning, you will without a doubt encounter problems as the years go by. While I am at it, I have over the past fifty some years of training seen a lot of knee injuries with improperly executed roundhouse kicks. Some folks just don't seem to realize that the knee is a hinge type joint that is not designed to twist in any other way. Unless you point the knee at the target and simply unfold it like a hinge as it was designed to do, the knee is often twisted in manners that cause severe damage over time. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:51:09 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicking Trees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << Of course you will not want to kick full force, but with a light kick and they you can "learn" how hard you might want to kick a tree>> Now what did a poor defenseless tree ever do to you? All they do is stand around minding their own business. Trees have feelings to, ya know. Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:13:54 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Masters?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Keith: "......I have a thought I would like to share.....of all the "true" KMA Masters that I have met....none of them ever sign their name as "Master so and so". IMHO, if you are really a Master of your art, then you should be humble enough not to refer to yourself as "Master so and so" or sign your name as "Master so and so". Comments?...." And its not just Westerners. My sword teacher introduces me to other Students as "Master Sims". My personal view is that this is not only unnecessary but makes interacting with fellow students just a shade awkward, if you know what I mean. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:18:11 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Kicking?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dennis: Since I have always viewed TSD as sitting on the cusp (so to speak) between Chinese and Japanese traditions, have you noticed any difference in the way that Chinese MA practitioners and Japanese practitioners select what part of the foot they will kick with? I know the part about sport vs S-D or breaking is well taken. I just wonder if the Chinese might favor one part of the foot over another and why. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:27:50 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Charles Sereff & General Choi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray asked how GM Sereff met General Choi. Below is a short explanation from GM Sereff. Robert Martin "All of that is covered in the "Made in the USA." picture mini-bio. However it is not detailed. I met the General thru my 2nd Korean instructor, Baek, Moon Ku. I think it was in 1964. I was very impressed, but had no interest in changing style. Mr. Baek was teaching Tang Soo Do. It wasn`t until later, I found out he had trained with the General in Taekwon Do. At that time, no Korean instructor could leave to teach martial arts without the okay of Gen. Choi. Mr. Baek showed me Taekwon Do and left the choice up to me. Tang Soo used Japanese pattens, in name and technique. The only difference being Tang Soo had much better kicking. After being promoted to 2nd dan and when Mr. Baek left Denver. I changed to Taekwon Do and basically started over. >From that day I became the Generals student, and remained so until he died. I will always be his student." --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:34:53 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Lim_Seminar_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jim: ".....ps I will be going to the seminar with GM Lim next weekend. It will be my first time at one of his seminars. Can anyone tell me about him beyond what appears in his bio? What's he like? Thanks in advance for any information provided....." I have been piecing things together a bit along these lines and I get the general impression that he is rather no-nonsense, but not in an over- bearing sort of way. My guess would be to check with Todd Miller (Dover, NH) as he has been with Lim for a little while now. I understand that Lim will NOT be doing any of his GUHAPDO sword material but focus exclusively on MT Hand material. I am not expecting a lot of opportunities for a question and answer format as he seems to come with a pretty well- organized program already in mind. All the same I have tucked away a couple of questions just in case the chance crops up. I also don't expect much time to be devoted to kicking and striking material as this is not emphasized as much in Lims' brand of Hapkido as in say Myung or Ji's styles. FWIW. BTW: Since I aggravated my bad back, and have been having twinges in my trick knees, and that twitch is back in my neck, and that darn sciatica is acting up, it looks like I will have to sit on the sidelines and be content to watch everybody else workout. Have no fear though. I will be sure to comment in my best stage whisper how the technique "should" be done and Oh how I wish I could just go out there and show these folks what I can do. But what can you expect of a guy of my advanced years? Would you be kind enough to get a picture of me standing next to Lim when the chance presents itself? Hee hee hee! Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "C. Bonner" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:46:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chuck Sereff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It has been in a couple of article's. Tae Kwon-Do times & another one. I think it was before he went I.T.F. from T.S.D-M.D.K. I also heard it from some members of his organization. I will try to find the t.k.d.t. article! if not, i will try to get some info from someone more in the know.He only got to 1st dan as far as i know. C. _________________________________________________________________ Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from bCentral. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/loudclear.armx --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:19:41 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ankle surgery for Charles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Was this due to a recent injury, or a correction for some long-lingering condition? Martial arts related, or caused by something else? ========================================================== Circa 1992 I folded my ankle playing raquetball. Some hard headed idiot never really rehabed it properly before falling in love with jump kicks, etc.....add a few pounds over the years and the weak link is bound to fail.... Cheers CR __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:23:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Terry's Comments Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Ray Terry wrote: Hi Mac, "I agree with Master Clark " Please it's Rick, I feel really silly with "Master" by my name - I am > far from that. Anyway the internet is a great equalizer :-) Hello Master Terry. Although I too can agree with this between Master's, I have always been comfortable referring to "Master's" as that, "Master such and such." I also refer to them as Mr. Ms. or Mrs. I have always taught my students this exact thing and it is expected of each and everyone of them. With you Master Ray, Grandmaster J. R. West, my Saja Nim, Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman and many of the other Black Belts and Masters I have met, I will respect you/them enough to elicit this title. None have ever been the wannabe's out there and have been here for all of us to assist us to strive for excellence. I thank you for your dojang digest service Sir. Garrett DeWitt DE WITT MARTIAL ARTS Brainerd, MN. --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Marble, Alan" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:28:29 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] name game Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net # 4 - Alan Marble # 9 - Jerry Broaddus --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Scott Shaw To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:33:30 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Well, I agree. My comment about Scott Shaw being in a lot of magazines was > more of a statement of fact. I hope I didn't leave the impression that > media coverage makes one "legitimate" in my eyes. Far from it, actually. > > Still waiting on objective comments about Shaw. I really don't know much about him. But two things are (1) he has claimed to be KHF, yet his name does not appear as one w/KHF Dan rank. I think there is a Shaw listed, but that is another fellow and he is from Oz-land. (2) I have not seen his tapes, but many of those that have were not impressed in the least. ??? Anyone here seen the tapes and felt otherwise? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 90% at Cho Dan? (was: KKW/ITF differences) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark, >Mr. Rick Clark wrote: > >>I have been of the opinion for a long time that once you get to 1st dan >>level you know 90% or more of the system. > >This got me thinking about my own training, Good! That was the purpose of my post :-) >and I would guess the number would >have been somewhere closer to 60%. At cho dan the wealth of circular hand >techniques were introduced, advanced "chambering" of techniques, advanced >kicking techniques (e.g. advanced jump kicks may have some of the same >components as their grounded counterparts, but these really must be learned new), >new stances, new/continued philosophies, etc. In fact my newest hyung identifies 2 >new stances, 4 new blocks, 11 new strikes and 2 new kicks! Looking at it this way >equates to roughly 20% "new" techniques! OK, you state there are new stances, new hand techniques, and jumping techniques. If you would think a bit more - how much time does it require to learn 4 blocks, 2 stances, 11 strikes, and 2 kicks? How much overlap is there between the aforementioned techniques and those you knew before? Once you have the basics rather solid (10th kup to 1st kup) you advance to 1st dan where by all accounts you are ready to learn. OK - you have been practicing for probably 2 or 3 years to make 1st dan, once you are shown a: 1) Stance 2) Block 3) Strike 4) Jump kick 5) New forms to be able to perform it? I'll give you it will take some time to get the jumping kicks developed - and some may never develop because of age and flexibility. A new form - just to learn the basic movements and remember them will take 10 or more repetitions and then some regular practice to remember the form. But the other stuff should be able to be picked up in a class or two. So to my way of thinking the majority of the stuff you know, or stuff that can be learned in a rather short period of time - compared it took you to get from 1st kup to 1st dan. > >On top of this, add advanced hossinsol, weapons, etc.......maybe after all this time Well here is a bit of a dilemma, in the Tae Kwon Do of the 40's - 70's you did not see Tae Kwon Do using weapons in there classes. Ok, perhaps a few instructors who had cross trained in Kobudo perhaps. I think in the 80's on you may have started to see people add weapons into the mix, but it was not there in the first place. As to Hossinsul - this is an interesting bit. I guess it depends if your school taught self-defense as a part of the syllabus from day one. As self-defense is one of the primary reasons (at least in my experience) people take up the martial arts. So once again would you think a bit and really determine if all of the stuff you learned from 10th kyu to 1st dan did not make up the majority of Tae Kwon Do. Then the techniques you do after 1st dan are simply variations, combinations, or derivatives of what you have already learned? >I've really only scratched the surface! In my opinion, putting me down for 10% may >still be generous ;-) > >In the spirit, >Mark So . . . . . .you would then say 90% has already been taught you - are you sure that's generous? Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest