Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:50:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #118 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Master West's Seminars (Thomas Gordon) 2. RE: Name game almost done (Thomas Gordon) 3. RE: Masters (Thomas Gordon) 4. Mr. Stovall on RH kick... (George Peters) 5. Titles (Frank Clay) 6. TSD and Better Kicking (Frank Clay) 7. (no subject) (t.metzner1) 8. Doju Ji Seminars (Chosondo@aol.com) 9. RE: Name game almost done (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 10. Re: Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi (hwarangrage@optonline.net) 11. Re: Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi (hwarangrage@optonline.net) 12. GM Sereff and Baek Moon Ku (JW) 13. Re: RE: Scott Shaw (hwarangrage@optonline.net) 14. Re: Scott Shaw (ABurrese@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Master West's Seminars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:37:29 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Gomez, I am also a Taekwondo practitioner (primarily). There are Hapkido locks but I didn't see anyone get "dumped." These are hard floors and falling isn't the best idea. So yeah, you'll be fine. Should they work on joint locks that go to the ground, just tell your partner that you don't know how to roll. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: Edward Gomez [mailto:egomez@PROXYMED.com] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:11 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master West's Seminars Hi all, Have a question to the people that attended Master West's seminar this past week. I was wondering if you need to be a hapkidoin to attend. I hold a 3rd dan in TKD, soon to be 4th, and would love to go to the fall seminar. Would I be seriously disadvantaged since I don't have a hapkido background? ---------- Edward J. Gomez Director of Network Services ProxyMed, Inc 2555 Davie Road, Suite 110 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33317 (954) 473-1001 x315 (770) 885-4557 FAX Confidential, unpublished property of ProxyMed, Inc. (c) copyright as of the date of this email. ProxyMed, Inc. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments and files transmitted with it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable laws. Moreover, this communication may contain the original sender's personal views and opinions, which do not necessarily reflect those of ProxyMed, Inc. . If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, or if you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and delete the original message and any copies of it from your system. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error, and that any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, distribution, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited without our prior, written permission. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Name game almost done Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:37:29 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Edward, I'm #7 and it's Thomas Gordon. Jason Thomas is another fella but I don't see him in the picture. #5 is Joseph Corchado. Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: Edward [mailto:ep3@austin.rr.com] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 6:28 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Name game almost done Hey folks, The names are almost complete. we only need three more I think. Also, let me know of any spelling changes, and preferences for Master or no master little http://homepage.mac.com/ep3/ddwhoswho.jpg Edward _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Masters Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:37:29 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree with Mr. Martin. It's been very interesting reading. Master instructor is a title earned at a certain rank whether it be 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th. In the organization I belong to (NKMAA & PTBA), 5th degree is master level. As Mr. Martin said, it's like a military rank. Your old Caption Bill Smith makes Major, you don't go around calling him Caption because you don't feel comfortable calling him Major. That's just silly. Same is true if you two went to high school together. He may be "Bill" out of uniform, but in uniform and around others, he's Major Smith. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:34:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Stovall on RH kick... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: What you stated in your post is the same thing I learned in ITF TSD. Instep for in class, ball of foot, shinbone, or steel toe of boot were for "special out on the town occasions". The same is true for some other techniques, If it were not I know a lot of folks (myself included) who would not be able to go to work the day after class. You are also quite right in your comments about hyperextension, pain is a wonderful tutor, and I have been taught well while training to learn the difference between sparring mode and combat mode. Respectfully, George Peters _________________________________________________________________ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:21:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Robert, I think that it is far more clear to Koreans. Some of the titles we have are more for big egos than for martial art. For example, find me a "grandmaster" in Korea. It is not a term they use. Kwanjangnim does not mean grandmaster. It can refer to a landlord, a martial artist, and I recently saw in print, a captain in the military (Alain - can you clarify that last one, it sounds odd to me?). When I was coming up through the ranks, our Korean teacher was called a Sabumnim, which he defined as a fathering master, or a role model for others. I prefer to stick with that. Some call me master, and some do not. All of my students typically call me master, and though I have earned that designation, it is not something I require. My feeling is that as a "master" I should be more painfully aware of my own short-comings... which is true. For this reason, I use the example put forth by my seniors such as Pak, Ho Sik, Hal Whalen (I am not part of his lineage mind you - but still by far his junior), and on and on. They teach through their actions, not just their physical movements on the mat. At any rate, I hope this has clarified this from a traditional point of view... Now Ray, about my Grand Pooh Bah rank... Frank [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Emoticon1.gif] --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:26:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD and Better Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Richard Kim does not specifically say that old school had better kicks. He did kind of allude to it in his book, in that he mentions that he had put together a team to go fight against Korea, a goodwill kind of thing. When he got there he was not permitted to see the Koreans fight, or practice... the end result being that they were not ready for the changes made to their counterparts kicking strategies. The book is fairly small and inexpensive. It is available from YMAA.com Frank --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "t.metzner1" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:44:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, You have shown ignorance with your attack on Grandmaster Hwang. I have known Grandmaster Hwang for 17 years and understand his relationship with General Choi. We discussed it many times. General Choi once stopped a dinner with high ranking officials from around the world and posed a question he answered himself , "Do you know who is the center of the Taekwondo universe? Me and Master Hwang". I have been present at dinners with General Choi and Grandmaster Hwang where the general spoke of Grandmaster Hwang in the most glowing terms, reminding us how lucky we were to have him. I sincerely doubt you know anything about their relationship As for Mr. Chang Ung, Grandmaster Hwang supported him as the leader of the ITF because that is who General Choi wanted when he died. But given time, Mr. Ung has not proved himself worthy of this position and a change is in order. Believe me, Grandmaster Hwang is respected by the other grandmasters and Mrs. Choi. Clean up your language on this website Bruce, and do a little more research before you disparage the name of a well respected grandmaster. Tom Metzner --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:04:40 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Doju Ji Seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As for Doju Ji seminars, he actually comes to my school once, sometimes twice per month for four (4) hours practice sessions. He has been doing this for about two years now. The only folks who typically show to these sessions are my students and affiliates. However, the sessions are open to anyone who has an interest in Hapkido. The following are the next upcoming training dates: March 14, 2004, 12:00 - 4:00 PM (tomorrow) April 11, 2004, 12:00 - 4:00 PM Venue: Roxborough YMCA, Philadelphia (Roxborough section), PA. Contact: 215-483-5057 or e-mail me at chosondo.com Doju Ji training sessions are intense with no breaks. So come prepared to develop a close relationship with the mat. I must saqy that spending this kind of quality time with Doju Ji has given me some deep insight into what Hapkido really is. At least, from his point of view. I am greatful for having this opportunity. Ian A. Cyrus, ICF chosondo. com In a message dated 3/13/2004 6:51:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Who has info about up-coming Hapkido seminars with Gm Ji? > > I believe I heard that Mike McCarty was hosting one. Was Ian Cyrus also > hosting one in April? Is the Sin Moo instructor seminar still on up > in the NorthWest? > > Any info w/details would be appreciated? --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Name game almost done Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:53:41 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I didn't make the shoot, I was getting lunch for GM Timmerman's lunch time training session. :) Have to be more careful next time :) -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:37 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Name game almost done Mr. Edward, I'm #7 and it's Thomas Gordon. Jason Thomas is another fella but I don't see him in the picture. #5 is Joseph Corchado. Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: Edward [mailto:ep3@austin.rr.com] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 6:28 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Name game almost done Hey folks, The names are almost complete. we only need three more I think. Also, let me know of any spelling changes, and preferences for Master or no master little http://homepage.mac.com/ep3/ddwhoswho.jpg Edward _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:24:53 -0500 From: hwarangrage@optonline.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I also never heard this story, would like to know the source. HWARANG. ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew pratt Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:55 pm Subject: [The_Dojang] Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi > All, > > Jye posted a long article on the 'Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi ' > > > > defeated. Near the end of this conflict, a Chinese military text > entitled,Ki Hyu Shin Zu, authored by the Chinese military > strategist and martial > artist, Chuk, Kye Kwang was discovered. The text had been acquired > from a > slain Japanese General. This manuscript was then presented to > Korean King > Sun Jo (1567 - 1608). Within its pages was detailed a system of > Chineseweapons and hand-to-hand combat, designed specifically for > warfare. King Sun > Jo was so impressed by the methods presented in this text that he > invitedChinese Generals and Chinese Martial Art Masters who > employed this system to > visit his capital - which they did. From this contact, he ordered > one of his > Generals, Han Kyo, to take what he had learned from both the text > and the > demonstrations a! nd design a new system of battlefield combat. > < > > This is an interesting story that I haven't heard before. Jye, do > you have > sources for this? > > I am not sure why the Korean's (properly Chosonites?) needed to > acquire the > manual from a slain Japanese general. After all, there were Ming > soldiers in > Korea for the whole 7 years of combat who were trained using this > manual.Moreover, this tale just begs the question as to where the > Japanese general > got the manual from (since his country was at war with China as > well as > Korea and prior to the war there had been little contact between > Japan and > China for the previous one hundred years.... > > I am not sure that Sun Jo(sic) was ever aware of the manual or > requested a > demonstration of the techniques. I know that the senior wartime state > councillor Yu Songnyong was aware of the book and tasked Han Kyo with > obtaining a copy. Han Kyo's task was not to 'design a new system' > but to > introduce the Ming techniques to the Choson military corpus of > techniques.Incidentally, I don't think Han Kyo was a general > either. If memory serves > me right he was a scholar (it's been a while, maybe I am mistaken). > > Regards, > > Andrew Pratt > > Project Manager > Synovate Business Consulting > > Phone (822) 3277 9668 > Fax (822) 313 4929 > > 12th Fl. The Korea Economic Daily Building > 441, Chunglim-dong, Chung-ku, > Seoul, 100-791 Korea > > www.synovate.com > > The information in this e-mail may be confidential and/or legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify > us and do > not copy or disclose the contents to any other person. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:54:33 -0500 From: hwarangrage@optonline.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am sorry to say that Mr. Shaw, in my opinion is not good source. In all other reseach material I have come across by noted authoritys no one mentions his story.And I believe thats what it is. HWARANG SIR ----- Original Message ----- From: Jye nigma Date: Thursday, March 11, 2004 9:18 am Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi > Here is one source, scott shaw: > http://www.scottshaw.com/MooYehDoBokTongGi/His information was for > the most part identical to other Korean history info I have found. > > Jye > > > andrew pratt wrote: > All, > > Jye posted a long article on the 'Moo Yeh Do Bok Tong Gi ' > > > > defeated. Near the end of this conflict, a Chinese military text > entitled,Ki Hyu Shin Zu, authored by the Chinese military > strategist and martial > artist, Chuk, Kye Kwang was discovered. The text had been acquired > from a > slain Japanese General. This manuscript was then presented to > Korean King > Sun Jo (1567 - 1608). Within its pages was detailed a system of > Chineseweapons and hand-to-hand combat, designed specifically for > warfare. King Sun > Jo was so impressed by the methods presented in this text that he > invitedChinese Generals and Chinese Martial Art Masters who > employed this system to > visit his capital - which they did. From this contact, he ordered > one of his > Generals, Han Kyo, to take what he had learned from both the text > and the > demonstrations a! nd design a new system of battlefield combat. > < > > This is an interesting story that I haven't heard before. Jye, do > you have > sources for this? > > I am not sure why the Korean's (properly Chosonites?) needed to > acquire the > manual from a slain Japanese general. After all, there were Ming > soldiers in > Korea for the whole 7 years of combat who were trained using this > manual.Moreover, this tale just begs the question as to where the > Japanese general > got the manual from (since his country was at war with China as > well as > Korea and prior to the war there had been little contact between > Japan and > China for the previous one hundred years.... > > I am not sure that Sun Jo(sic) was ever aware of the manual or > requested a > demonstration of the techniques. I know that the senior wartime state > councillor Yu Songnyong was aware of the book and tasked Han Kyo with > obtaining a copy. Han Kyo's task was not to 'design a new system' > but to > introduce the Ming techniques to the Choson military corpus of > techniques.Incidentally, I don't think Han Kyo was a general > either. If memory serves > me right he was a scholar (it's been a while, maybe I am mistaken). > > Regards, > > Andrew Pratt > > Project Manager > Synovate Business Consulting > > Phone (822) 3277 9668 > Fax (822) 313 4929 > > 12th Fl. The Korea Economic Daily Building > 441, Chunglim-dong, Chung-ku, > Seoul, 100-791 Korea > > www.synovate.com > > The information in this e-mail may be confidential and/or legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify > us and do > not copy or disclose the contents to any other person. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:28:08 -0800 From: JW To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Sereff and Baek Moon Ku Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Baek was one of Hwan Kee's original TSD students. Although his BB # was within Hwan Kee's first fifty he would have been even earlier in the sequence - but , I am told that his mother didn't want him to get his black belt and be a fighter. My recollection of discussions with GM Baek and his family was that he may have first taught GM Sereff in Korea. I will be speaking with one GM Baek Moon Ku's sons later today and will confirm that. GM Baek wanted to leave Korea along with his wife Wol. At that time he converted over to TKD. At that time converting over meant, amongst other things, agreeing to share teaching and testing revenues with Gen. Choi. Gen. Choi then arranged for the Baek family to come to North America and to specifically come to teach no GM Sereff. It is my recollection that he tested and promoted GM Sereff through second dan. I know that one of GM Baek's brother's taught Hapkido for many years. I will check with the family and find out whether he ever instructed GM Sereff. Joel S. Weissler San Diego, CA --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:33:00 -0500 From: hwarangrage@optonline.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Scott Shaw To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir I can atest to the Shaw tapes, they are some of the worst I have seen. He is very slaping, no form and he is a very bad exsample to Hapkido. The tapes are from Unique Publications, and are a set of 4. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Terry Date: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Scott Shaw > > Well, I agree. My comment about Scott Shaw being in a lot of > magazines was > > more of a statement of fact. I hope I didn't leave the > impression that > > media coverage makes one "legitimate" in my eyes. Far from it, > actually.> > > Still waiting on objective comments about Shaw. > > I really don't know much about him. But two things are (1) he has > claimedto be KHF, yet his name does not appear as one w/KHF Dan > rank. I think there > is a Shaw listed, but that is another fellow and he is from Oz- > land. (2) > I have not seen his tapes, but many of those that have were not > impressedin the least. ??? > > Anyone here seen the tapes and felt otherwise? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:24:38 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Scott Shaw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have looked at a couple of his books at the store, didn't buy them. Was told by someone I trust not to spend the money on his videos, so didn't. Got a chance to see part of one at Jackson one year, didn't do much for me, so still never bought them. On a personal note, Shaw is one of two Americans who have said my wife, who for those that don't know is Korean, uses the Korean language wrong. ??? In one of his books, he stated that Kwanjangnim means you have to be 7th dan and it is like grandfather, so one of your students has had to promote someone to a certain level too. (Something like that, I don't have the book, just going from memory) I wrote him about this, and explained that kwanjangnim meant school owner. My wife, and other Koreans used to call the English School owner, where I taught and so did my wife, Kwanjangnim. I was acustomed to calling the owner of my Hapkido school Kwanjangnim, so the first time I heard them calling the English School owner the same, I must have had a funny look, since Yi-saeng then said, it's not just for martial art school owners. I told Shaw this, and he wrote back that he didn't know why the Koreans used the term like that, since his definition was the real meaning of the word. Hmmm.... An American telling me that Koreans were not using the Korean language correctly. Hmmm again..... I have not had any communications with him since. Funny, I have had two Americans say my wife didn't know proper Korean and was wrong with the languages usage. Probably not a coincidence that these same two Americans are not very respected in many circles. I guess when you start getting too high on yourself, and thinking you are so much better than everyone else, you lose something.... Maybe you lose a lot.... Could this be why those that are humble, polite and always learning are more respected? Hmmm... I just know that I want to keep learning, and treating people well is one of the keys to success.... That's my plan. And maybe I will get a chance to meet Shaw some day, and maybe we will get just fine. I'm sure we could both learn from each other, who knows. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest