Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:31:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #120 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. The Last Man (Lloyd Martin) 2. Re: Supreme Master? (Jye nigma) 3. Re: Supreme Master? (Jye nigma) 4. Re: korean martial arts (Jye nigma) 5. Re: RE: Scott Shaw (Jye nigma) 6. Master Hwang (Todd Miller) 7. Two weeks till GM Timmerman's Seminar in Austin, TX (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 8. Re: Supreme Master? (Ray Terry) 9. Re: korean martial arts (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Re: Lim Seminar (AMERHKD@aol.com) 11. RE: Titles (Dana Vaillancourt) 12. Re: korean martial arts (hwarangrage@optonline.net) 13. RE: Supreme Master? (Thomas Gordon) 14. Re: korean martial arts (Kip McCormick) 15. Hapkido In Abeline Texas (Kip McCormick) 16. I need a good Flordia Dojo? (MIND and BODY FITNESS LLC) 17. Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 04:51:12 -0800 (PST) From: Lloyd Martin To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Last Man Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The last guy in the Picture (Number one) is Larry Stanford Thanks Lloyd Martin --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's funny how some talk down on Bruce Lee for not completing wing chun, yet say nothing of General Choi for not completing Karate. Jye Thomas Gordon wrote: Defining a "Supreme Master." His first taste of martial arts was at age 17 with T'ae-Kyon. Around 21, he received his first degree black belt in Karate. Around 23, he received his second degree in Karate. In 24 years +/- from receiving his first degree, he was considered a Supreme Master and Master Solider. A 45 year old man who apparently never tested past second degree. Who was this person? Major General Hong Hi Choi who went from Second Lieutenant to General in about five years. By no way am I making fun of General Choi. I found this very intriguing. In my opinion, as far as Taekwondo goes, if there is such an animal, he would be the "supreme master." No one has proliferated Taekwondo more than General Choi. I was also intrigued by the blocks for throwing, sweeps, and weapon blocking (including bayonet). I think modern taekwondo has lost some of these along the way. Some of you may have already known some/all of this. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:06:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net whoops hit enter before finishing my thought.... but yeah. What makes the general so different from someone in present day? What I mean is if someone was a 2nd dan and decided to start there own school, alot of people would have something to say about it. So I just wonder why no one has anything to say about the General doing this? Jye Thomas Gordon wrote: Defining a "Supreme Master." His first taste of martial arts was at age 17 with T'ae-Kyon. Around 21, he received his first degree black belt in Karate. Around 23, he received his second degree in Karate. In 24 years +/- from receiving his first degree, he was considered a Supreme Master and Master Solider. A 45 year old man who apparently never tested past second degree. Who was this person? Major General Hong Hi Choi who went from Second Lieutenant to General in about five years. By no way am I making fun of General Choi. I found this very intriguing. In my opinion, as far as Taekwondo goes, if there is such an animal, he would be the "supreme master." No one has proliferated Taekwondo more than General Choi. I was also intrigued by the blocks for throwing, sweeps, and weapon blocking (including bayonet). I think modern taekwondo has lost some of these along the way. Some of you may have already known some/all of this. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:29:09 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] korean martial arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Although I haven't been to Korea yet, I would think that you could learn Ship Pal Gi which would be cool for you because it is Koreans style kung fu. Jye BEGOSULLIVAN@aol.com wrote: Hi. My name is James O'Sullivan. I'm a sergeant in the US Army and I'm going to be stationed in Korea for a year. I am interested to know about the martial arts there. I have been studying Chinese Kempo for quite a while. I am not interested in tournament or sports martial arts. I'm more in to the realistic or self defense benefits as well as the physical aspect. What are some of the arts that I may benefit from while I'm there? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:40:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Scott Shaw To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Who is his teacher? what org does he belong to? He has also stated that ALL korean systems claiming ancient lineage is nothing more but lies. Jye hwarangrage@optonline.net wrote: Sir I can atest to the Shaw tapes, they are some of the worst I have seen. He is very slaping, no form and he is a very bad exsample to Hapkido. The tapes are from Unique Publications, and are a set of 4. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Terry Date: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Scott Shaw > > Well, I agree. My comment about Scott Shaw being in a lot of > magazines was > > more of a statement of fact. I hope I didn't leave the > impression that > > media coverage makes one "legitimate" in my eyes. Far from it, > actually.> > > Still waiting on objective comments about Shaw. > > I really don't know much about him. But two things are (1) he has > claimedto be KHF, yet his name does not appear as one w/KHF Dan > rank. I think there > is a Shaw listed, but that is another fellow and he is from Oz- > land. (2) > I have not seen his tapes, but many of those that have were not > impressedin the least. ??? > > Anyone here seen the tapes and felt otherwise? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:13:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Hwang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I also trained with Master Hwang quite a few years ago and in my opinion he was very talented at Taekwondo he was not the most respectable person! Master Hwang has shown me that he was more interested in $$$$$$$$$$ than any thing else. I will not go into detail here on an open forum. Take care Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association www.millersmudo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:24:39 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Two weeks till GM Timmerman's Seminar in Austin, TX Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to remind everyone that North Austin Tae Kwon Do will be hosting GM Rudy Timmerman for a seminar 3/26/04 - 3/28/04. The seminar is open to all ranks and styles. If you would like more information you can find a flyer and registration form at: www.natkd.com/events. Thanks. Jason --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:58:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > It's funny how some talk down on Bruce Lee for not completing wing chun, > yet say nothing of General Choi for not completing Karate. Not sure what completing Karate would be... but Gen. Choi (of whom I am no particular fan) apparently made it to 1st or 2nd Dan in Shotokan (we aren't sure which). But... in those days it only went up to 5th Dan. i.e. the highest rank Shotokan's founder held was 5th Dan, in his own system. In those terms, Gen. Choi probably learned quite a bit. However all rank after 2nd Dan was honorary. Bruce Lee made movies. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] korean martial arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:59:33 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Hi. My name is James O'Sullivan. I'm a sergeant in the US Army and I'm going > to > be stationed in Korea for a year. I am interested to know about the martial > arts > there. I have been studying Chinese Kempo for quite a while. I am not > interested in tournament or sports martial arts. I'm more in to the realistic > or self > defense benefits as well as the physical aspect. What are some of the arts > that I may benefit from while I'm there? Hapkido. Check out a Hapkido dojang while you're there. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: AMERHKD@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:33:31 EST Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Lim Seminar To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Lim seminars are sponsored by the American Hapkido Association. Grandmaster Michael Wollmershauser was the 1st american student of Grandmaster Lim and brought him to the US in 1996 and 1998. When Master Mike went to Korea in 1979 and trained with the founder Choi, Yong Sool, it was Grandmaster Lim who was also present and trained with Master Mike. At the time there was only 8mil camera available to Master Mike and he filmed all of his training with the founder. Grandmaster LIm appears in all of the training films. If anyone would like more information on Grandmaster Lim, feel free to contact me at the American Hapkido Association, 413-786-8290 or mastermike@ahahapkido.com. Also for information on the seminars by Grandmaster Lim please go to the official American Hapkido Association website at ahahapkido.com. Master Lim will in fact be doing a Guhapdo seminar on Friday March 26th at the AHA member school, Athol Martial Arts Academy. the hosts are Bryan and Nancy Lagimoniere. Hope to see you at the seminars. Joannie Wollmershauser --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:50:53 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Frank Clay" wrote on Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:21:57 on Subject: [The_Dojang] Titles> " For example, find me a "grandmaster" in Korea." You know, interesting enough, I had never seen this term used either. However, the last Kukkiwon newsletter (No. 31- January 2004) actually used the term "grand masters" in talking about recently appointed technical council members. It caught my eye as the term "Master" is typically used. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from bCentral. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/loudclear.armx --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:30:50 -0500 From: hwarangrage@optonline.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] korean martial arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. O'Sullivan: I think it will be a good opputunity to study Korean Kung- Fu ( Ship Pal GI ). This art is very hard to find here in the U.S.A., and I think you will enjoy the combat aspects of this art. Once there you may want to look up The Korean Ship Pal Gi Association in Seoul, Korea. ----- Original Message ----- From: BEGOSULLIVAN@aol.com Date: Saturday, March 13, 2004 11:52 pm Subject: [The_Dojang] korean martial arts > Hi. My name is James O'Sullivan. I'm a sergeant in the US Army and > I'm going > to > be stationed in Korea for a year. I am interested to know about > the martial > arts > there. I have been studying Chinese Kempo for quite a while. I am > not > interested in tournament or sports martial arts. I'm more in to > the realistic > or self > defense benefits as well as the physical aspect. What are some of > the arts > that > I may benefit from while I'm there? > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:19:31 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Jye, On your first post, "It's funny how some talk down on Bruce Lee for not completing wing chun, yet say nothing of General Choi for not completing Karate." Some did give General Choi a hard time just like they did Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee had some good ideas and such but didn't live long enough to personally touch the lives like General Choi did. (Good or bad.) I've been doing Taekwondo for a few days now and yet to "complete" it. By the looks of things, I never will. :o)~ "What makes the general so different from someone in present day?" General Choi was in a unique position...and it's HUGELY unique and impossible to ever duplicate. For starters, Japan occupied Korea and KMA was banned. He did get some training in the preoccupation art of T'ae-Kyon. He was forced to go to Japan. While there, he learned Karate under a Korean. At that time, the Koreans were also forced to join the Japanese Army and the Korean women were often forced into moral boosters for the Japanese troops (aka raped). So there is a world of reasons why the Koreans needed their own art. If there was ever a person in the right place at the right time - it was General Choi. To boot, he was also in a unique position in that he could totally capitalize on the "right time - right place." General Choi was also in a unique position to make this all happen because of his influence in the Korean Military (and even the American military). He traveled around the world on the military's dime so he had access to many, many people. General Choi took what he learned from T'ae-Kyon and Karate and developed a system with truly new material. Look at all the material available today - it's going to be tough to come up with as much new material as he did. He also named the material and gave a fairly good description in his 1965 edition of Taekwon Do. Further more, General Choi did prove himself by obtaining a black belt at a time when black belts weren't so easily obtained (around 1940). I wouldn't even dream of coming up with GordonDo (that's a joke) until I was an 8th-9th degree and had many, many years in the arts. Even then, dreaming up a real nifty federation name doesn't make someone a pioneer. Just as combining my idea of "the best" of a few arts like Hapkido and Taekwondo and then naming it HapTaeKidoKwanDo is also a joke. At least in my opinion. So in my estimation, General Choi was successful because he had proven himself, he was an educated man, he was at the right time and right place, there was a strong desire by his people for their own art, the foresight to come up with truly new ways of doing things - a break through even, and then modified some of the other "Japanese ways." Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] korean martial arts Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:32:34 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net James: Please shoot me an email -- kiplindakorea@hotmail.com. I've been stationed here in Korea for two years (this time around) and can hook you up with a good hapkido school. Will you be in Seoul or w/ the 2nd Infantry Division? I'll at least give you the points of contact, since I move back to the states in May. I agree w/ Ray Terry -- train in hapkido over here. Good luck and God bless. Kip McCormick LTC, US Army "Warrior Hapkido" Seoul >From: Ray Terry >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] korean martial arts >Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:59:33 -0800 (PST) > > > Hi. My name is James O'Sullivan. I'm a sergeant in the US Army and I'm >going > > to > > be stationed in Korea for a year. I am interested to know about the >martial > > arts > > there. I have been studying Chinese Kempo for quite a while. I am not > > interested in tournament or sports martial arts. I'm more in to the >realistic > > or self > > defense benefits as well as the physical aspect. What are some of the >arts > > that I may benefit from while I'm there? > > >Hapkido. Check out a Hapkido dojang while you're there. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Kip McCormick" To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:40:42 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido In Abeline Texas Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi folks!- One of my first dan hapkido students is transferring to Abeline TX this July (he'll be assigned to the air force base there). Does anyone know of a hapkido school there? Please respond to kiplindakorea@hotmail.com. Many thanks and hope all is well. Kip Kip McCormick "Warrior Hapkido" Seoul, Korea _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:47:57 -0800 (PST) From: MIND and BODY FITNESS LLC To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] I need a good Flordia Dojo? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Thomas Gordon I am looking for a honorable school in the Fort Myers, Flordia or surrounding area. I have a student moving there from Oklahoma and would like him to have a good school to train at. We practice forms from each style (ITF, WTF) to honor each association. Could you or anyone on the digest reccomend a good school Any help would be greatly appreciated. Mike Cejka --__--__-- Message: 17 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:09:14 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Thomas Gordon: Your message raises a very interesting point regarding legitimacy of rank in KMA. Like many people on the DD, I have read a fair amount information on the history of KMA in books, magazines, on DD and on various Internet sites. Based on my readings, General Hong Hi Choi limited experience and rank in MA is consistent with many of the early KMA founders. Many of them were only 1st and 2nd Dans in karate. The MA background of GM Hwang-Kee, founder of MDK, is apparently somewhat a mystery. Questions still exist such as: Where did he learn karate? Did he have a black belt in anything? Was he self-taught? GM Yong-Sool Choi background is also somewhat a mystery because he "lost" his certificates of rank and there are no records in Japan that support his claim that he studied Daito_Ryu Aiki-Jutsu or so the story goes. Some of the written modern histories of KMA suggest that these early KMA leaders basically promoted themselves and each other to master and grandmaster without any testing of their skills by someone of higher rank. There were also very quick promotions of their students to BB, master and grandmaster ranks. Many students received BB within one year. I read on the DD that GM Yong-Sool Choi promoted Ji Han-Jae to 8th dans when they were only 32 years old. Having said all this, I agree with you that one has to recognize the great contributions these people have made to MA which including the spreading of KMA all over the world. I believe my life; my family (all are BB’s) and millions of other people’s lives have been enriched by learning and practicing KMA. I do have one problem with all of this and that is double standards that seem to exist with us in the USA. IMHO, We, Americans, spend too much time on the issue of legitimacy of rank and criticism of other Americans over the issue even when the record shows the early leaders of KMA had such questionable backgrounds and limited experience for their ranks. We should spend more time on learning, practicing, improving and sharing our KMA skills and knowledge. Enjoy Your KMA and share it with others. John Message: 4 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:03:56 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Defining a "Supreme Master." His first taste of martial arts was at age 17 with T'ae-Kyon. Around 21, he received his first degree black belt in Karate. Around 23, he received his second degree in Karate. In 24 years +/- from receiving his first degree, he was considered a Supreme Master and Master Solider. A 45 year old man who apparently never tested past second degree. Who was this person? Major General Hong Hi Choi who went from Second Lieutenant to General in about five years. By no way am I making fun of General Choi. I found this very intriguing. In my opinion, as far as Taekwondo goes, if there is such an animal, he would be the "supreme master." No one has proliferated Taekwondo more than General Choi. I was also intrigued by the blocks for throwing, sweeps, and weapon blocking (including bayonet). I think modern taekwondo has lost some of these along the way. Some of you may have already known some/all of this. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest