Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:00:08 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #125 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Masters and legitimacy (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 2. Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Thomas Gordon) 3. Master Arce on Kanji for TSD (George Peters) 4. Re:90% or 60% or .... (Klaas Barends) 5. DD group Photo (Edward) 6. Re: On masters (Klaas Barends) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Losing_the_Korean_Arts=3F=3F=3F?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. TKD Events (Charles Richards) 9. whoiswho (J R Hilland) 10. RE: Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Rick Clark) 11. Photos (Brian Beach) 12. Sin Moo links (Ray Terry) 13. Kicks (Ray Terry) 14. 90% or 60% or .... (Bernard Maginnity) 15. RE: Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Masters and legitimacy Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:33:11 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >For me journey IS the art. As I write this I imagine the >difference between a person who trains for a marathon and runs the 26 >miles to the best of his ability only to listen to someone brag about how >he did the same distance in his car in a fraction of the time. FWIW. Bruce, What if someone just ran 26 miles with out training all their life? If they just up and decided to run a marathon and finished all 26 miles in a decent time competitive with marthon hobbists, would their accomplishment be less genuine than a "real" marathon trainer? Jason --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:35:15 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye writes, "To each his own, but african american simply shows that I am a descendant of african ancestry. I could say I'm black, but (looking at my skin), that doesn't seem so true...lol. Also, are you not familiar with the term italian american?" Mr. Jye, I understand what you are saying and I realize this is getting off topic so I'll let it go with this. Italy is a country. Europe is the continent the country Italy resides in. Africa is also a continent. I don't think I've heard of anyone saying they were "European American." Even "Asian American" is very ambiguous. Asian as in Russia, Iran, or China? All very, very different places on the same continent. If I remember correctly, there are over forty countries on the African continent. If an Italian went to Korea and learned a Korean art. Then went back to Italy and refined it, molded it, worked the kinks out while producing new, provable fundamental techniques that was a significantly different way of doing things or produced much, much more power AND was in a position where there was a need (supply & demand) AND was in position to proliferate this new art AND intelligent enough to be able to get all of this across to the interested parties...then yes, in my opinion, that would be a new Italian art...perhaps it would still have a Korean flavor. After all, that's basically what Kano and Choi did. With Choi, his 1965 book had Karate forms in it. It also has his blue cottage forms. He discusses throws and various self defense techniques. If you ever get a chance, this is a good book to get because you'll see why Taekwondo is truly a stand alone art and very different from Karate. I'm still learning Taekwondo - not as fast as I was but still a learning process. In the recent past, on another list, you have posted about a creating your own system with a mixture of your Ninja, boxing, & kung fu training and adding Taekwondo, Hapkido, weapons, and various other systems. I wish you the best in your endeavor. As for me, I'm going to keep studying Taekwondo and butcher Hapkido until I quit butchering it. :) Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:42:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Arce on Kanji for TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: The difference as explained by Choong Jae Nim C.S.Kim is that the new kanji is supposed to represent the true roots of TSD and not an affiliation with the Tang dynasty. I "ass-you -me" that almost everyone is quite familiar with the original Tang interpreted as "the way of the china hand", the way of the worthy hand, etc. The new one means "the way of offense,defense", or "the way of block and strike". According to the book by Master Kim, this move is supposed to take us closer to our roots. This kanji, unlike the other one, is also protected by copywright law and is on all the gear sold to students in the org including uniforms. No one is supposed to reproduce this. No one to my knowledge has ever been sanctioned for having gear that does not bear the new kanji. Anyway, thought you might need a member of that org to explain, so I responded. Respectfully, George TANG SOO! _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:41:36 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:90% or 60% or .... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >I have been of the opinion for a long time that once you get to 1st dan > >level you know 90% or more of the system. > > This got me thinking about my own training, and I would guess the number > would have been somewhere closer to 60%. At cho dan the wealth of > circular hand techniques were introduced, advanced "chambering" of > techniques, advanced kicking techniques (e.g. advanced jump kicks may > have some of the same components as their grounded counterparts, but > these really must be learned new), new stances, new/continued > philosophies, etc. In fact my newest hyung identifies 2 new stances, 4 > new blocks, 11 new strikes and 2 new kicks! Looking at it this way > equates to roughly 20% "new" techniques! > > On top of this, add advanced hossinsol, weapons, etc.......maybe after > all this time I've really only scratched the surface! In my opinion, > putting me down for 10% may still be generous ;-) This way you almost only look at it technique wise. For 1st dan you learn 900 techniques, for 2nd dan 100 so you are at 90% when you are 1st dan. But is technique all there is to it? Understanding of principles, knowing/feeling how to apply them, etc. etc. I'd say you are at 10% as a 1st dan. -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:47:43 -0800 From: Edward To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] DD group Photo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey folks, They say no Photograph is ever finished, but this one is done enough. If anyone is interested in me posting a high res printable version let me know. it will probably be around 10 to 12 Megs, make sure you have access to Broadband. Check out the group. http://homepage.mac.com/ep3/ddwhoswho.jpg Edward --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:05:09 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: On masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master as military rank? My guess would be that master is the translation for sabom. In Korea it is considered impolite to call someone who is older than you, or who is your teacher, by his name. You call him by his 'title'. You call your older brother hyungnim, your older sister your noonim, your teacher sonseangnim, your ma teacher sabomnim. Nim his honorofic, so you don't call yourself sabomnim but sabom. When you sign a letter to your pupils for example. But we live in the west (at least that is where I come from) and are not Koreans. I would consider is kind of stupid if someone would introduce him/herself as 'Hello, I am master John Doe'. However, if someone says 'My instructor is master John Doe', that would show some respect towards his/her instructor, wouldn't. I do have a problem with things like grandmaster, president master, etc. etc. I'd like to think to master is from the verb master. He/she 'masters' a complete system, and thus is legit to teach. But if a master masters the system, what does a grandmaster do? Master the system even more? In Korea so see terms like dojunim and kooksanim for people who lead an organization. These are sometimes hard to translate. So maybe people use grandmaster to refer to one of these terms. -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:22:48 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Losing_the_Korean_Arts=3F=3F=3F?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick and Jye: The stumbling block here in the maintaining of Korean martial traditions is the failure of some authoritative source to come forward as the definitive word on the nature of Korean arts. That really seems to stymie people, yet I see no problem with this. Activities such as Boxing, Baseball, Soccer, Library Science, Medicine, etc., etc. get passed along without benefit of patrilinear succession and closed organizations, why is this so hard to accept about KMA? Now this is not to say that there are not regulations, rules and guidelines as well as reasonably firm curriculum. But the strength of learning, say, being a doctor lies not in the curriculum, but in passing the standardized tests that lead to licensure. The same holds true for becoming a lawyer or a Real Estate agent. One learns the skills as best one can and then sits for a standardized exam. Whats the problem? For myself, I see only that the problem is that people go to schools and learn all sorts of exotic stuff and then duck any sort of standardized experience wherein they might demonstrate their prowess. For instance, the recent Internationale in Jackson, while not a "standardized testing" experience, would be an opportunity for people to get out on the mat in front of their peer group and demonstrate what they are capable of (or not). My position is that the Koreans, for generations, used exactly this sort of approach in maintaining levels of competence among their MA practitioners. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:34:25 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Events Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry, Thanks for the continued listing of MKI 2004. And the posting of WTF Rules changes. Adding a few other AAU events Florida AAU Qualifier - March 27th, Orlando Florida - David Turnbill SEAAU Qualifier - April 24th, Lebanon, TN - Kim Cerami rumor has it that USTU JO's are the week before AAU Nats in the Georgia Dome - Atlanta, GA Be Well, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:32:27 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] whoiswho Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very well done. Thanks... http://homepage.mac.com/ep3/ddwhoswho.jpg --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] >With Choi, his 1965 book had Karate forms in it. It also has his blue >cottage forms. He discusses throws and various self defense techniques. >If you ever get a chance, this is a good book to get because you'll see >why Taekwondo is truly a stand alone art and very different from Karate. I have his 1965 book, and yes it does have throws, sparring from a seated position, defense against a bayonet and some other things. BUT I have seen the same stuff in Karate. HOW is Tae Kwon Do "very different from Karate"? OK, we will not talk about how the terms are different, or how Tae Kwon Do uses a higher percentage of kicks to hands over Karate. HOW are the techniques different? >Thomas Gordon >Florida Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:02:35 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Photos Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've posted pictures from the 2nd Korea Hapkido European Championships at our site. It is mostly of the seminars and focused on our federation. There are also historic pictures of the early days of hapkido in the Blue House and Viet Nam. http://www.jinpalhapkido.com/gallery.html Brian Beach --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:26:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Sin Moo links Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'll be adding links at http://sinmoo.com to as many Sin Moo Hapkido schools that I can locate. If you'd like to be added please drop me a line here or at the below addr. Thx. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:32:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have his 1965 book, and yes it does have throws, sparring from a > seated position, defense against a bayonet and some other things. BUT I > have seen the same stuff in Karate. HOW is Tae Kwon Do "very different > from Karate"? OK, we will not talk about how the terms are different, > or how Tae Kwon Do uses a higher percentage of kicks to hands over > Karate. > > HOW are the techniques different? I'd say they are fairly different. The ITF kicks are perhaps pretty much the same, not sure. But the Kukki-TKD kicks have changed significantly over the last ~25 years. Yes? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:43:13 +1100 From: "Bernard Maginnity" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] 90% or 60% or .... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A wise man put this in perspective for me a little while ago. A GOOD Black Belt has good body mechanics. IMO this has little to do with percentage of techniques learned, esp in Hapkido where variations and advanced techniques multiply after BB. Kind regards Bernie Maginnity Klaas wrote: This way you almost only look at it technique wise. For 1st dan you learn 900 techniques, for 2nd dan 100 so you are at 90% when you are 1st dan. But is technique all there is to it? Understanding of principles, knowing/feeling how to apply them, etc. etc. I'd say you are at 10% as a 1st dan. -- mvg. Klaas Barends NOTICE The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. Mission Australia has implemented anti-virus software, and whilst all care is taken, it is the recipient's responsibility to ensure that any attachments are scanned for viruses prior to use. --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:34:38 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Clark, To be objective, what Karate books are you referring to? For grins, I pulled out Masutatsu Oyama's "What is Karate" and took a peak. Both published about the same time. Oyama goes over six kicks with five variations of those 6 kicks. Choi's book goes over roughly 18 kicks with several variations. Oyama went over 11 stances. Choi went over 13. Oyama went over 7 blocks. Choi went over 20 blocks with several variations. Oyama went over about 11 hand strikes (including elbow). Choi went over about 18 (including elbows). Now I'm not sure about some of these that's why I put "about..." They didn't number for me all nice and neat. (That would be WAY too easy). That's just a physical count and quantity certainly doesn't equate to quality. Odd saying that since Taekwondo is often said to be "easier to learn" because of it's limited basics. Oyama used Chinese and Jujutsu training in his book. Choi mentioned Karate but there's an obvious hapkido or jujitsu flavor to some of it. And of course this is all based on older books and not the modern Karate or Taekwondo. >From experience, I can say that the particular Karate instructor I went to did not have near the arsenal of kicks that Taekwondo does. That may or may not be a good thing depending on what the student is looking for and it may have been that particular instructor's way of teaching. Same question begs to be answered, what's the difference in one Karate versus another. Or Taekwondo? Hapkido? And on and on. The best thing would be comparing theory AND application by both General Choi and a Karate grandmaster. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest