Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:14:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #126 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Arce on new Kanji for TSD... (Master Arce) 2. Re: 10% and wise man (Klaas Barends) 3. re: 90% at Cho Dan? (Lasich, Mark D.) 4. Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association (Todd Miller) 5. RE: Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Rick Clark) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Marathon_Man_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Interesting video clip (Jye nigma) 8. Good video clip....hip throw (Jye nigma) 9. Another Good Video....Defense with staff (Jye nigma) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mastersa_and_legitimacy_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:33:28 -0800 (PST) From: Master Arce Subject: Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Arce on new Kanji for TSD... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: The difference as explained by Choong Jae Nim C.S.Kim is that the new kanji is supposed to represent the true roots of TSD and not an affiliation with the Tang dynasty. I "ass-you -me" that almost everyone is quite familiar with the original Tang interpreted as "the way of the china hand", the way of the worthy hand, etc. The new one means "the way of offense,defense", or "the way of block and strike". According to the book by Master Kim, this move is supposed to take us closer to our roots. This kanji, unlike the other one, is also protected by copywright law and is on all the gear sold to students in the org including uniforms. No one is supposed to reproduce this. No one to my knowledge has ever been sanctioned for having gear that does not bear the new kanji. Anyway, thought you might need a member of that org to explain, so I responded. Respectfully, George TANG SOO! Thank you so very much George!!!!!!!!! Steve Arce DO SAN DOJANG Dan Bon# 4061 Soo Bahk Ki International Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:01:07 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 10% and wise man Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > A wise man put this in perspective for me a little while ago. Other wise men say: Your black belt is just the beginning. How can it be the beginning if you allready master 90%..?? What would set a teacher apart from his 1st dan student? Just the 10%? > A GOOD Black Belt has good body mechanics. > > IMO this has little to do with percentage of techniques learned, esp in > Hapkido where variations and advanced techniques multiply after BB. IMO good body mechanics is just 10% of hapkido :-) But could you define the word 'body mechanics' for me? Maybe it'll change my opinion about the 10%. -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:17:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: 90% at Cho Dan? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Rick Clark - thank you for continuing to inspire me to think about my training! Specifically: >OK, you state there are new stances, new hand techniques, and jumping >techniques. If you would think a bit more - how much time does it >require to learn 4 blocks, 2 stances, 11 strikes, and 2 kicks? As I get more proficient, you are correct, it does take less time to learn new techniques. But I don't believe time to learn equates to amount learned. It just becomes easier to learn, in some regards, since I have the basic understanding already in place! >How much overlap is there between the aforementioned techniques and >those you knew before? Sure, there is ALWAYS some degree of over lap. At the simpliest level, a stance has one foot, or both on the ground. A block, well the arm/hand start somewhere and end somewhere, misdirecting a technique along the way (hopefully)! Kick? Yup, pick up the foot, throw the kick, "rechamber", then set the foot down, or not ;-) I think a lot of folks tend to focus on individual, isolated techniques. As such, I admit that if there were some exhaustive list, then perhaps one could identify a percentage of material that they "know". But other than some "dim mak" technique, I seriously doubt a single, isolated technique(s) will suffice in a real life situation. However, one of the benefits of hyung training is the flow between techniques, the weight transfer, the transition from one technique to another, etc. Developing this understanding will allow one to perform any of the techniques from "the list" regardless of which stance they are current in, or currently moving into! On top of this, add the reflex action and intuition developed during sparring/hossinsol and I remain completely astounded by how little I really "know". I can't seem to put into words how I feel about this, sorry. But, the more I learn, the more I realize that I do not know! My current form have 84 moves, and while it is the one of the easiest forms I've memorized (I was probably ready for something new after 7 years ;-), this is the hardest form I have ever had to LEARN! Yes, I may have been TAUGHT a high percentage of techniques from "the list", but I remain convinced that I really KNOW very little. I'll keep my subjective rating at 10%, as there is so very much more to learn! So, I agree with Klaas Barends' observation: >But is technique all there is to it? > >Understanding of principles, knowing/feeling how to apply them, etc. etc. > >I'd say you are at 10% as a 1st dan. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:36:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am writing this due to the confusion of certain groups! The Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association is the group headed by GM Lim, Hyun Soo of Taegu city South Korea. This is a list of the ONLY Masters/Instructors who adhere to the requirements of the Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association. These are Master Mike DeAloa, Master Todd Miller, Master Sheryl Glidden, Master Bill May, Master Marc Brackett, Chief Instructor Stuart Emery, Chief Instructor Chris Lacava. These Masters and Instuctors have dedicated themselves to learning and teaching Doju Nim Choi's style of Hapkido by traveling to Korea every year for intense training sessions with GM Lim and the Jungki Masters. If you have any questions about GM Lim, the Jungki Kwan or the techniques he teaches please contact one of his Masters to get the correct information. Thank you Master Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association www.millersmudo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Thomas, >From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] >Master Clark, Please, use Rick. I do not consider myself a master. To me a master implies much more than physical skills or knowledge of the martial arts (and there are many out there who know more and are better technicians) and there is the other side of it as well - being a well rounded individual possessing skills and knowledge in other areas than just the martial arts. Plus the personality component of which I'll be the first to admit I have my failings. So - please - just Rick. > >To be objective, what Karate books are you referring to? I don't remember saying anything about books - my question as I remember it was something along the lines of "how is Karate different than Tae Kwon Do". Leaving out the obvious differences of names of techniques and some basic stylistic differences. And of course now forms have changed in Tae Kwon Do for many since the early forms of 1945 which were based entirely on Shotokan Karate. > >For grins, I pulled out Masutatsu Oyama's "What is Karate" and took a >peak. Both published about the same time. > >Oyama goes over six kicks with five variations of those 6 kicks. Choi's >book goes over roughly 18 kicks with several variations. > >Oyama went over 11 stances. Choi went over 13. > >Oyama went over 7 blocks. Choi went over 20 blocks with several >variations. > >Oyama went over about 11 hand strikes (including elbow). Choi went over >about 18 (including elbows). Ok, let's be fair about this. Oyama's book had VERY large pictures and a lot of blank space in the book with 175 pages. Choi's 1965 book was smaller pictures, and 300 + pages. Would you not expect there would be more material covered in Choi's book? Also, consider Oyama's book was an introduction to his style of Karate and covered only basic techniques. Choi's book contained much more information. So to try to compare Karate vs. Tae Kwon Do on the basis of two dissimilar books seems to me to be the old apples and oranges analogy. > >Now I'm not sure about some of these that's why I put "about..." They >didn't number for me all nice and neat. (That would be WAY too easy). >That's just a physical count and quantity certainly doesn't equate to >quality. Odd saying that since Taekwondo is often said to be "easier to >learn" because of it's limited basics. I don't know anyone who has said one art is easier to learn because of limited basics. > >Oyama used Chinese and Jujutsu training in his book. Choi mentioned >Karate but there's an obvious hapkido or jujitsu flavor to some of it. Of course Choi mentioned Karate he was a black belt in Shotokan as was Oyama. Personally I don't see an obvious Ju-jitsu or Hapkido flavor in Choi's book. Yes there are some techniques in the back of the book that have throws and such. But they are rather basic and can be found in virtually any system of martial arts. Nothing unusual in the techniques shown. > >And of course this is all based on older books and not the modern Karate >or Taekwondo. > >From experience, I can say that the particular Karate instructor I went >to did not have near the arsenal of kicks that Taekwondo does. That may >or may not be a good thing depending on what the student is looking for >and it may have been that particular instructor's way of teaching. You speak of the arsenal of kicks that Tae Kwon Do has, yet I would venture to say you could find Karate instructors who would teach techniques very similar to those used in Tae Kwon Do. Of course the chances are a Tae Kwon Do instructor will have more variations of kicks than a Karate instructor just because Tae Kwon Do tends to emphasize kicks over hand techniques. Let's get past a count of techniques in books and get to the root question. HOW does Tae Kwon Do differ from Karate? Forms are different? Sure the order and combination of the movements are different. But the basic movements are the same. So how does that make Tae Kwon Do different from Karate? >Same question begs to be answered, what's the difference in one Karate >versus another. Or Taekwondo? Hapkido? And on and on. The best thing >would be comparing theory AND application by both General Choi and a >Karate grandmaster. OK, what is the difference in theory between the two? What is the difference in the application between the two aforementioned individuals and their systems? Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > >Best regards, > >Thomas Gordon >Florida >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:17:43 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Marathon_Man_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jason: "..... What if someone just ran 26 miles with out training all their life? If they just up and decided to run a marathon and finished all 26 miles in a decent time competitive with marthon hobbists, would their accomplishment be less genuine than a "real" marathon trainer?....." I think that depends on where someone is going with that. For instance, there have been a number of Marathon competitors from Ethiopia who trained to compete in the World Olympics. Now true, they could have stayed home and marked out a 26 mile course and used a stop watch in the search for a personal best. My sense is the difference lies when one wants to put their effort out on the International stage. I'll bet, by comparison, that any number of "records" have been broken by people wanting to get their names into the record books like Guiness. The difference is that getting your name into a record book means meeting established parameters and thats where a lot of people fall down. So if one is content to remain in the background and only strive against themselves I guess it wouldn't make much difference. Is that what you were saying? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:27:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Interesting video clip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here's an interesting video clip....lol: http://www.budogruppen.nu/varlager_2003_5.html Jye Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:38:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Good video clip....hip throw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.budogruppen.nu/lager_fallforsvar.html Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:41:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Another Good Video....Defense with staff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.budogruppen.nu/lager_bostav.html Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:35:38 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mastersa_and_legitimacy_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Thomas: "......Same question begs to be answered, what's the difference in one Karate versus another. Or Taekwondo? Hapkido? And on and on. The best thing would be comparing theory AND application by both General Choi and a Karate grandmaster. ....." I, personally, think THIS is where the "rubber meets the road". One can play numbers games all day long, but I think it is in the MANNER of the execution that ones' greatest contributions are seen. In Hapkido, for instance, a person might only learn a hundred techniques or 5 hundred techniques. However, if the 100 techniques are executed with significant balance-break, misalignment and un-timing I see much greater contributions there to the art than 500 techniques which rely only on leverage and strength. Looking at this another way--- and sticking with Karate for the purposes of clarity--- I always thought that Gichin Funakoshi was very insightful regarding his art from a philosophical standpoint. However, from the view of actually analyzing the biomechanics that produce power in Shotokan, and vectors that transmit that power, I would take Nakayama or Nishiyama in a minute. I don't know anyone who has done any comparable work with TKD but I think it would be a real contribution. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest