Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:31:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #127 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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RE: re: 90% at Cho Dan? (Rick Clark) 2. RE: Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Jye nigma) 3. Another video clip.....Knife attack subtle (Jye nigma) 4. TKD vs. Karate differences (Dante James) 5. Kicks, again (Ray Terry) 6. RE: Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Thomas Gordon) 7. Re: Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association (Ray Terry) 8. RE: Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Rick Clark) 9. Jye's Ninjutsu Clips (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] re: 90% at Cho Dan? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:46:40 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark, >From: Lasich, Mark D. [mailto:Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com] >Mr. Rick Clark - thank you for continuing to inspire me to think about my training! I'll take some small degree of credit for getting you to think - just because of this topic. But really I don't think I have ever been accused of being inspirational :-) >Specifically: > >>OK, you state there are new stances, new hand techniques, and jumping >>techniques. If you would think a bit more - how much time does it >>require to learn 4 blocks, 2 stances, 11 strikes, and 2 kicks? > >As I get more proficient, you are correct, it does take less time to learn new >techniques. But I don't believe time to learn equates to amount learned. It just >becomes easier to learn, in some regards, since I have the basic understanding >already in place! No the point I am trying to make is a bit more than the superficial level we seem to be stuck at. Try to think at a more basic level. The body mechanics of a technique, the use of relaxation of various muscles and the proper application of force. Sure you will be able to add some new things - but the point I have been trying to make is the BASIC techniques the BASIS for the system is learned by 1st dan. You add on stuff later - but the foundation is there and to me the foundation techniques are the basis for everything else that comes along the way. Once you get this grounding in the system you have learned the majority of the system. The other things are the finishing touches so to speak. > >>How much overlap is there between the aforementioned techniques and >>those you knew before? > >Sure, there is ALWAYS some degree of over lap. At the simpliest level, a stance has >one foot, or both on the ground. A block, well the arm/hand start somewhere and >end somewhere, misdirecting a technique along the way (hopefully)! Kick? Yup, pick >up the foot, throw the kick, "rechamber", then set the foot down, or not ;-) OK - this is beginning to get to my point (on two threads). There is not much difference between 1st and 2nd dan or for that matter 5th dan only the level of technical ability. The BASIC system is picked up by the time you are a 1st dan and then you begin to improve yourself technically. In addition as you point out stances are one foot on the ground or two feet on the ground. Pick your foot up - kick out - chamber or set down. HOW then is this different from Karate? >On top of this, add the reflex action and intuition developed during sparring/hossinsol >and I remain completely astounded by how little I really "know". OK - we all admit we have a lot to learn. BUT is the question is "do you have the basics (the majority of techniques) under your belt and are now putting on the finishing touches?" Or is there a whole lot of techniques that you have not even seen before being introduced to you at this level? > >I can't seem to put into words how I feel about this, sorry. But, the more I learn, the >more I realize that I do not know! My current form have 84 moves, and while it is the >one of the easiest forms I've memorized (I was probably ready for something new >after 7 years ;-), this is the hardest form I have ever had to LEARN! I have been working on one or two forms for over 10 years now and I know the movements, and have a rather good knowledge of applications I could use from these two forms. But I don't feel I "know" the forms yet. I truly believe you could spend 20 or more years on just one form to really learn it. > >Yes, I may have been TAUGHT a high percentage of techniques from "the list", but I >remain convinced that I really KNOW very little. I'll keep my subjective rating at 10%, >as there is so very much more to learn! Ok, I guess you can get my point that I have been at one or two forms for over 10 years and I don't feel I "know" them yet. And I appreciate you don't feel you "know" the system yet. BUT I would guess you would admit you have the superficial knowledge of the vast majority of techniques in the system? Rick Clark www.ao-denko-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:04:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, Those were my thoughts exactly. In my opinion, the General did what many of us do naturally...developed his own style. By style I mean the way one does something. So to me he developed his own style of karate, but did not create korean karate. What I'm saying is if he learned japanese karate added some variations in techniques, it's still at the core japanese karate. It's like if I study japanese art, but added somethings I thought would be better to further bring out the beauty/skill in what I learned, it's simply my version of the japanese art, but it's still japanese art....lol. Why do I feel like I'm the only one who knows what I mean? lol. Jye Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:10:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Another video clip.....Knife attack subtle Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.shindendojo.de/video/DiAssa1.MPG Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Dante James" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:22:35 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD vs. Karate differences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gentlemen, If I could offer my thoughts in this discussion: I lived and trained in Japan for two years from 89-91. Aside from my personal training, I worked with the Shotokan classes at the Japanese high school where I was teaching. There were a number of 1st and 2nd Dan Black Belts aside from the instructor, who was 3rd. The "philosophy" I saw expressed in movement was a very direct, linear one. There was little angular movement practiced, either individually or in partner drills. There were little or no circular blocking concepts. The kicking expressed followed the same concepts. The "arsenal" tended to be front, side, back, round. Jump/skip of any was never seen, and spin heel/wheel/hook/ didn't exist until Dante Sensei would hit someone with it, and then it wasn't so much an appreciation of the technique as much as it was a just a wow at Dante Sensei being "good." Meaning they weren't really interested in expanding beyond the traditional aspects of their curriculum with me. Body mechanics of the kicks were different. Most specifically side and round kicks done with little to no pivot. The side kick chambered at the knee and swept up with the knife edge of the foot and there is little to no pivot on the supporting leg. Similar concept with the round kick. Hands were used much more than feet, and emphasised in training and conditioning. Footwork was not as emphasized except in how to move quickly forward in punching and front kicking motions. I have tried to save any editorials and just briefly present what I saw in the traditional aspect of Shotokan during my stay. The Shorinji I practiced was much more similar to TKD kicking concepts, in movement and body mechanics. I think most truly traditional shotokan dojo don't have the "arsenal" of TKD kicks currently practiced, and if they do, they aren't truly traditional shotokan, and have borrowed some techniques. Ok, that was more of an editorial. Peace DJ Dante J. James, Esq. www.denverata.com Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Clark" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 6:59 AM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy > Hi Thomas, > > >From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] > >Master Clark, > > Please, use Rick. I do not consider myself a master. To me a master > implies much more than physical skills or knowledge of the martial arts > (and there are many out there who know more and are better technicians) > and there is the other side of it as well - being a well rounded > individual possessing skills and knowledge in other areas than just the > martial arts. Plus the personality component of which I'll be the > first to admit I have my failings. So - please - just Rick. > > > >To be objective, what Karate books are you referring to? > > I don't remember saying anything about books - my question as I remember > it was something along the lines of "how is Karate different than Tae > Kwon Do". Leaving out the obvious differences of names of techniques > and some basic stylistic differences. And of course now forms have > changed in Tae Kwon Do for many since the early forms of 1945 which were > based entirely on Shotokan Karate. > > > >For grins, I pulled out Masutatsu Oyama's "What is Karate" and took a > >peak. Both published about the same time. > > > >Oyama goes over six kicks with five variations of those 6 kicks. > Choi's > >book goes over roughly 18 kicks with several variations. > > > >Oyama went over 11 stances. Choi went over 13. > > > >Oyama went over 7 blocks. Choi went over 20 blocks with several > >variations. > > > >Oyama went over about 11 hand strikes (including elbow). Choi went > over > >about 18 (including elbows). > > Ok, let's be fair about this. Oyama's book had VERY large pictures and > a lot of blank space in the book with 175 pages. Choi's 1965 book was > smaller pictures, and 300 + pages. Would you not expect there would be > more material covered in Choi's book? > > Also, consider Oyama's book was an introduction to his style of Karate > and covered only basic techniques. Choi's book contained much more > information. So to try to compare Karate vs. Tae Kwon Do on the basis > of two dissimilar books seems to me to be the old apples and oranges > analogy. > > > >Now I'm not sure about some of these that's why I put "about..." They > >didn't number for me all nice and neat. (That would be WAY too easy). > >That's just a physical count and quantity certainly doesn't equate to > >quality. Odd saying that since Taekwondo is often said to be "easier > to > >learn" because of it's limited basics. > > I don't know anyone who has said one art is easier to learn because of > limited basics. > > > >Oyama used Chinese and Jujutsu training in his book. Choi mentioned > >Karate but there's an obvious hapkido or jujitsu flavor to some of it. > > Of course Choi mentioned Karate he was a black belt in Shotokan as was > Oyama. Personally I don't see an obvious Ju-jitsu or Hapkido flavor > in Choi's book. Yes there are some techniques in the back of the book > that have throws and such. But they are rather basic and can be found > in virtually any system of martial arts. Nothing unusual in the > techniques shown. > > > >And of course this is all based on older books and not the modern > Karate > >or Taekwondo. > > > >From experience, I can say that the particular Karate instructor I went > >to did not have near the arsenal of kicks that Taekwondo does. That > may > >or may not be a good thing depending on what the student is looking for > >and it may have been that particular instructor's way of teaching. > > You speak of the arsenal of kicks that Tae Kwon Do has, yet I would > venture to say you could find Karate instructors who would teach > techniques very similar to those used in Tae Kwon Do. Of course the > chances are a Tae Kwon Do instructor will have more variations of kicks > than a Karate instructor just because Tae Kwon Do tends to emphasize > kicks over hand techniques. > > Let's get past a count of techniques in books and get to the root > question. > > HOW does Tae Kwon Do differ from Karate? > > Forms are different? Sure the order and combination of the movements > are different. But the basic movements are the same. So how does that > make Tae Kwon Do different from Karate? > > >Same question begs to be answered, what's the difference in one Karate > >versus another. Or Taekwondo? Hapkido? And on and on. The best > thing > >would be comparing theory AND application by both General Choi and a > >Karate grandmaster. > > OK, what is the difference in theory between the two? What is the > difference in the application between the two aforementioned individuals > and their systems? > > Rick Clark > www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > > > >Best regards, > > > >Thomas Gordon > >Florida > >_______________________________________________ > >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >Standard disclaimers apply > >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:28:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks, again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick states: > Let's get past a count of techniques in books and get to the root > question. > > HOW does Tae Kwon Do differ from Karate? > > Forms are different? Sure the order and combination of the movements > are different. But the basic movements are the same. So how does that > make Tae Kwon Do different from Karate? The basic movement is the same!?! For sake of discussion we must define terms here. "Karate" is Shotokan Karate in its current state. Taekwondo is the TKD that is practiced today in S. Korea. Yes? The basic motion is fairly different. The kicks differ widely. The forms differ. The intent is different (sport vs. art). Just how long of a list are you looking for? :) Now, if you go back 30 or 40 years my response will differ. At that point they were much more similar. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:47:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Professor Clark, You may not feel comfortable going by master instructor but I certainly don’t feel comfortable calling you by your first name. First off, that’s the way I was raised. You are enough my senior in age to go by last name. With three levels of master instructor in three different arts, you are my senior enough in rank to go by last name. Your seniors felt you were at master level when they promoted you. We all have shortcomings but it doesn’t negate where you are in the martial arts world. Perhaps I’m old fashion .... and I can live with that. After reviewing your website, the question taht begs to be asked, with an eighth in Karate and seventh in Taekwondo; do you feel there is a fundamental difference in Taekwondo and Karate? You’re a busy man with those and your seventh in Ju-Jitsu, fifth in Judo, third in Arnis, and first in Hapkido. Anyway, I don’t doubt that we could find a Karate teacher that would teach similar techniques that a Taekwondo instructor would teach and vice versa. I met a Kung Fu instructor that tries to teach some Taekwondo style kicks. I know this because he used to come to my class before opening his own school. So many people have cross trained and some of the techniques are similar in many arts. Just as some of the techniques in Hapkido and Ju-Jitsu are similar. And I base these comparisons on my personal experience. When it came to kicks, the Karate instructor I worked out with was rather weak in anything outside of basic kicks. Now his front thrusting kick was strong – real strong. The mechanics were nothing less than perfect and I worked on that until I looked pretty good at it. But that was the only thing that really stuck out in regards to technique. Never did I see anyone do a turning or spinning kick. The only jump kick was a front jump kick. I did a jump spin crescent kick while sparring and I found the fellow students were fairly defenseless against it or most other spinning kicks. They had good hand techniques and I worked on that pretty hard. I will be out of town for the rest of the week starting early tomorrow morning. Your question while take some time to review. When I get back, I will read over the Oyama book in more detail to see if he goes over fundamentals. I’ll also review his “This is Karate” which is more of a text book and came out around the time General Choi’s second book came out. In regards to the amount of pictures and pages, you’re correct that Oyama used big pictures, bigger font, and less pages. I have to wonder if Choi just had more to say. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:30:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Todd says: > I am writing this due to the confusion of certain groups! Just who is confused??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:51:35 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Thomas, > From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] > Professor Clark, > > You may not feel comfortable going by master instructor but I certainly > don't feel comfortable calling you by your first name. Prof. is fine if you can't do Rick, but I have no problem with Rick:-) > > After reviewing your website, the question taht begs to be asked, with an > eighth in Karate and seventh in Taekwondo; do you feel there is a > fundamental difference in Taekwondo and Karate? No and that's been my point with these conversations. The style of Tae Kwon Do I was taught was the Pyung-Ahn forms (the old style stuff) and the Karate forms I practiced were the Pinan/Heian. So for me the forms were virtually identical and could be interchanged without any major changes one way or the other. Terminology of course was different but that was not a major problem. The overlap between Judo and Ju-Jitsu is considerable. Havening a background in these arts gave me an ability to be graded at 1st dan in Hapkido (at least in the school I was working out in). Then with the Modern Arnis - I had been sponsoring Remy Presas in my hometown for a number of years and had been teaching Modern Arnis to my students. Remy and I were talking and I said to him that one of these days I would like to start ranking in his system. He asked me where I would like to start my ranking and I said white belt was fine with me. He took a certificate and marked it a 3rd dan. > > When it came to kicks, the Karate instructor I worked out with was rather > weak in anything outside of basic kicks. Now his front thrusting kick was > strong - real strong. The mechanics were nothing less than perfect and I > worked on that until I looked pretty good at it. But that was the only > thing that really stuck out in regards to technique. Never did I see > anyone do a turning or spinning kick. The only jump kick was a front jump > kick. I did a jump spin crescent kick while sparring and I found the > fellow students were fairly defenseless against it or most other spinning > kicks. They had good hand techniques and I worked on that pretty hard. I have worked with a number of "karate types" over the years and many I have been around have very strong kicks and very fast kicks - nothing a Tae Kwon Do person would be ashamed of. I have also seen some Tae Kwon Do people that had kicks that were just awful. So in a lot of ways it boils down to the person/club/instructor. > > I will be out of town for the rest of the week starting early tomorrow > morning. Your question while take some time to review. When I get back, > I will read over the Oyama book in more detail to see if he goes over > fundamentals. I'll also review his "This is Karate" which is more of a > text book and came out around the time General Choi's second book came > out. In regards to the amount of pictures and pages, you're correct that > Oyama used big pictures, bigger font, and less pages. I have to wonder if > Choi just had more to say. Or that Oyama wanted to put out more books and get larger sales:-) Humm it seems Choi did the same thing :-) Rick Clark www.ao-denko-kai.org > > Best regards, > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:58:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jye's Ninjutsu Clips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well...interesting. I won't comment on the "knife up the wazoo" technique...LOL!!! The hip throw counter looked very similar to counters I've seen in Judo/BJJ circles. The staff throws were very interesting, and my eye caught some familiar things. The levers were very similar to things I've seen in Filipino/Indonesian systems...both with the stick and empty handed. I see the name "Bujinkan" from time-to-time on the net, magazines, etc. Does that term reflect a style/system/lineage that falls under Hatsumi? Forgive my ignorance, but my knowledge of ninjutsu is limited to the Sho Kosugi movies I used to watch on "Skinemax" as a lad. That and the occasional perusal of a Stephen K. Hayes book. Just curious...from what I can gather, it seems that most roads lead back to Hatsumi. At least that seems true in the western world. You come across someone who's involved in ninjutsu, and as long as you poke and prod long enough into their past you're going to find a direct link to Hatsumi, or at least an involvement with one of Hatsumi's students (Hayes, Bussey, et al). At least that's been my experience. So, are there lineages out there that are truly independent from Hatsumi's teachings? From my understanding, there were multiple groups/tribes/organizations that practiced what could be described as "ninjutsu" back in Japan's feudal days. I'm wondering if Hatsumi represents the only single, unbroken link to those traditions, or are there other groups/individuals who claim a lineage back to those old traditions? Thanks. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest