Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:45:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #128 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Kicks, again (Rick Clark) 2. Happy St. Patrick's Day (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 3. Re: private instruction in CT (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 4. Please feel free to add my school (Chosondo@aol.com) 5. Sword master (Wayne Watkins) 6. tying together all threads (Hagness, Chris R.) 7. Differences between RyuKyu Kempo and Tae Kwon Do ? (Wicker, H. Keith) 8. Re: Kicks, again (Ray Terry) 9. Supreme Master? and Legitimacy (Robert Martin) 10. Vol. 11 Journal of Pacific Asia (Ray Terry) 11. "kanji" (A. Boyd) 12. RE: Happy St. Patrick's Day (Kip McCormick) 13. RE: Differences between RyuKyu Kempo and Tae Kwon Do ? (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kicks, again Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > Rick states: > > Let's get past a count of techniques in books and get to the root > > question. > > > > HOW does Tae Kwon Do differ from Karate? > > > > Forms are different? Sure the order and combination of the movements > > are different. But the basic movements are the same. So how does that > > make Tae Kwon Do different from Karate? > > The basic movement is the same!?! > > For sake of discussion we must define terms here. "Karate" is Shotokan > Karate in its current state. Taekwondo is the TKD that is practiced today > in S. Korea. Yes? I have a bit of a problem with getting down to these two arts. There are many I think in the Tae Kwon Do in Korea today may be very different that what is practiced by some here in the US and in other places as well. Shotokan differs as well I should think. > > The basic motion is fairly different. The kicks differ widely. How are they different? > The forms differ. Is it just the combinations and order is different or do the fundamental hand and foot movements differ from Karate to Tae Kwon Do. To be basic - how is a punch different in Karate from Tae Kwon Do? > The intent is different (sport vs. art). Which style is the sport and which is the art? I could argue either is a sport or art depending on who is teaching or practicing the art. > > Just how long of a list are you looking for? :) It does not have to be long just specific. How is a punch different in Karate vs. Tae Kwon Do? How is a side kick different in the two? How is a front kick different? > > Now, if you go back 30 or 40 years my response will differ. At that point > they were much more similar. Well Ray I guess that shows my age a bit :-) Rick www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:47:09 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Happy St. Patrick's Day Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Happy St. Patrick's Day to all the DD. Irish history is very rich like Korean history. There have been many wars and invaders such as the Romans, Vikings, and Normans. It has been occupied by various conquerors over its history like Korea. Their culture and freedom was also suppressed by various occupiers including the English. It is divided country with a North Country and South Country like Korea. The Irish have produce many great fighters in the history of boxing as well as other fighting systems. Have a Great St. Patrick's Day! John Fitzgerald --__--__-- Message: 3 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:26:13 EST To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: private instruction in CT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hi folks, i received a call today from a gentleman in naugatuck, connecticut. he was looking for private instruction in self defense, judo, or jujitsu. was wondering if anyone's interested or if you might know of someone whom he could contact. thanks, melinda :) (sorry for the cross post!) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:10:24 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Please feel free to add my school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Mr. Terry: Please feel free to add my school to your "Sin Moo Hapkido" links. The Hapkido school within the ICF is actually, Hapkido Yu Shin Kwan (Willow Tree Spirit School). We are a Sin Moo Hapkido school. Thank you. Best regards, Ian A. Cyrus In a message dated 3/17/2004 12:46:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I'll be adding links at http://sinmoo.com to as many Sin Moo Hapkido > schools > that I can locate. > > If you'd like to be added please drop me a line here or at the below addr. > > Thx. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:15:08 -0600 From: "Wayne Watkins" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Sword master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This forum is being interrupted for some humor: There once was a powerful Japanese emperor who needed a new chief samurai. So he sent out a declaration throughout the entire known world that he was searching for a chief. A year passed, and only three people applied for the very demanding position: a Japanese samurai, a Chinese samurai, and a Jewish samurai. The emperor asked the Japanese samurai to come in and demonstrate why he should be the chief samurai. The Japanese samurai opened a matchbox, and out popped a bumblebee. Whoosh! went his sword. The bumblebee dropped dead, chopped in half. The emperor exclaimed, "That is very impressive!" The emperor then issued the same challenge to the Chinese samurai, to come in and demonstrate why he should be chosen. The Chinese samurai also opened a matchbox and out buzzed a fly. Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh! The fly dropped dead, chopped into four small pieces. The emperor exclaimed, "That is very impressive!" Now the emperor turned to the Jewish samurai, and asked him to demonstrate why he should be the chief samurai. The Jewish Samurai opened a matchbox, and out flew a gnat. His flashing sword went Whoosh! But the gnat was still alive and flying around. The emperor, obviously disappointed, said, "Very ambitious, but why is that gnat not dead?" The Jewish Samurai just smiled and said, "Circumcision is not meant to kill." [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Hagness, Chris R." To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:24:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] tying together all threads Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've caught myself saying things to students recently that, although they may or may not be technically true or entirely accurate, seem to capture the idealogy or "flavor" that I'm trying to express. Here are some that are applicable to some DD threads. Although you learn more advanced techniques at higher ranks (gup ranks/grades being inferred here), the most important techniques you will ever learn are taught at the lowest ranks. These techniques include most of the stances, strikes, kicks, and body mechanics which are the foundation of your art. (For arts like hapkido, these may be the techniques that are easiest or most straightforward to perform, or apply to the most common situations, etc.) At each rank, your abilities improve. Therefore, at each rank you should return to the most basic, most important techniques of your art and practice them again. Only this way will your overall art truly improve. At each rank, you should practice more of these techniques, and practice them longer, harder, more often, etc. At each black belt dan, you should return to your white belt curriculum and practice all of it from scratch (in addition to more advanced techniques). This is "mastery" of your art - being able to perform your techniques with the competency of long, hard study. No modern curriculum contains everything, without any alteration, that was practiced in ancient times. Therefore, mastery of your art cannot be based solely upon number of techniques known (if you give "mastery" the same emphasis that has been handed down in our martial traditions). As an aside, I also tell students that excellent martial artists may know a very limited number of techniques, but that they will practice these techniques until they are of outstanding quality and are intuitive, reflexive motions. Then they will practice, and be ready to use, these techniques in any situation they encounter (implying variations on techniques). This is comforting to lower ranks, who may either be too eager for new material or daunted by the overall curriculum. It's also comforting to advanced students who have temporary trouble learning new techniques. Everybody has lulls in their training, especially between black belt testings, but for those of us motivated enough to stick with it, I think it's important to confer the idea that maintaining your current level of proficiency with your basic techniques is not good enough for advancement. My training time is spent roughly 40% improving basic forms/techniques, 40% learning variations/applications of all my forms/techniques, 5% learning new forms/techniques, 15% staight-out conditioning (sparring, bagwork, drills, running, etc.). This "theory" (if you call it that) can explain some of the professional integrity problems that can be seen in the martial arts. It allows people who have a black belt (of whatever dan, from whatever source) to operate a school or even an organization on the premise that they know all of the techniques that are important. Mastery as I've defined it requires continued improvement on an individual basis, which means a person would have to stick with a particular teacher for an extended period of time, and that teacher has to be of significantly higher rank (to recognize and guide improvements) and have the same mentality (therefore seeking mastery on their own). Your own intentions aside, that can be a significant obstacle. When that obstacle arises, both teachers (implying higher dans) and students (implying lower dans) are put into predicaments where rank may be given inappropriately. And there is still the issue of whether the teacher's expectations of quality are consistent with the international norm. Mastery of applying techniques to various situations is also, IMO, how an aikido master can recognize those situations where a technique calls for additional force, and how an hapkido master can recognize those situations where a technique calls for additional "harmony" (less force). It is not breaking from the fundamentals of the art to do so, it is simply an indication that the person is proficient in applying the techniques correctly for the given situation. There is no blurring or overlap of the arts at very high levels IMO, just a uniform level of competency. For example, karate techniques will continue to be different from taekwondo techniques, even though in some situations a karate master may use a basic stance more akin to TKD or a TKD master use a hard block more akin to karate. If the fundamentals differ at white belt level, then they remain different at black belt. Thoughts from my brain, respond if you like, help me to refine my messages to students where possible, and as always, thanks. Chris Hagness, Ph.D. www.mafci.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Wicker, H. Keith" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:31:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Differences between RyuKyu Kempo and Tae Kwon Do ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Professor Clark, I have been following the discussions on the digest about the differences between the basic motion of "karate" and "taekwondo". I had a chance to review your web site and was impressed by your credentials in Kempo and Tae Kwon Do. I would like to respectfully ask if you could outline the differences and similarities in basic motion between RyuKyu Kempo and Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan.....kicks, hand techniques, etc. Thank You, Keith Wicker Wicker's Korean Martial Arts, USKMAF --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks, again To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:49:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have a bit of a problem with getting down to these two arts. There are > many I think in the Tae Kwon Do in Korea today may be very different that > what is practiced by some here in the US and in other places as well. > Shotokan differs as well I should think. Seems like JKA style Shotokan is fairly similar from place to place. As is Kukki-TKD. But as you and I say, the real problem comes down to definition of terms. Which TKD? The TKD of 30 or 40 years ago that is still taught in a variety of dojangs or the Kukki-TKD of Korea taught in most of the dojangs in Korea and many other places around the world. I'd stick with the Taekwondo as done in Korea as the reference point. But yes you still have people teaching Shotokan, using Japanese terms and still calling it TKD. > > The basic motion is fairly different. The kicks differ widely. > > How are they different? Wow. Where to start... Given the def of terms above. Difference in power vs. speed. Knee position. Leg motion. Position of the supporting foot. Sliding in vs. anchored. Single vs. multiple technique. The list goes on. > > The intent is different (sport vs. art). > > Which style is the sport and which is the art? I could argue either is a > sport or art depending on who is teaching or practicing the art. Kukki-TKD is obviously the sport. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:30:10 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Supreme Master? and Legitimacy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The big difference that I see is that people like Choi Hong Hi were able to refine what they had and sell it to others. Now, ITF style TKD also contains elements that are not used in Karate -- sine wave (I know! I know! What good is it! yada yada yada) for example. More importantly, to my mind, is that he codified his concepts on the generation of power and developed a method to teach it. This means that while individuals may do a technique differently because of body type or ability, the concepts and techniques are taught the same all over the world. Most anybody can take a technique, refine it for themself and make it work for themself. The real trick is to teach the exact same thing to somebody else. Robert Martin "Rick, Those were my thoughts exactly. In my opinion, the General did what many of us do naturally...developed his own style. By style I mean the way one does something. So to me he developed his own style of karate, but did not create korean karate. What I'm saying is if he learned japanese karate added some variations in techniques, it's still at the core japanese karate. It's like if I study japanese art, but added somethings I thought would be better to further bring out the beauty/skill in what I learned, it's simply my version of the japanese art, but it's still japanese art....lol. Why do I feel like I'm the only one who knows what I mean? lol. Jye" --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:34:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Vol. 11 Journal of Pacific Asia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... For your information, the Journal of Pacific Asia, Vol. 11 (March 2004) is devoted to the North Korean issue and includes the following articles. Those interested in purchasing a copy are asked to contact . Thank you, Mark E. Caprio Rikkyo University Tokyo, Japan Anthony DiFilippo, "Security Trials, Nuclear Tribulations and Rapproachment in Japan-North Korea Relations" Kosuke Shimizu, "Japan-North Korea Relations: clash of state logic and alienation of citizens' voices" Yone Sugita, "A Never-Ending Story: Inflating the Threat from North Korea" Mark E. Caprio, "The Death of an Agreement: Assessing the Short History of the US-DPRK Agreed Framework" George Ehrhardt, "Japanese Engagement with North Korea in the Shadow of Great Power Politics" David Palmer and Daniel Fazio, "Australia's Engagement with North Korea: Partner in Japanese Diplomacy or American Belligerence?" --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:38:37 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "kanji" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For what it's worth, Koreans use the term 'hanja' to refer to chinese characters. 'Kanji' is used by the Japanese. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Happy St. Patrick's Day Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:36:56 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net But I didn't find any green beer in Seoul today, and I looked....Maybe if it's made from the Han River it will naturally be green...with a couple of floaters for extra taste. Happy St Patty's day, y'all! Kip Kip McCormick Warrior Hapkido Seoul, Korea >From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Happy St. Patrick's Day >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:47:09 EST > >Happy St. Patrick's Day to all the DD. >Irish history is very rich like Korean history. There have been many >wars >and invaders such as the Romans, Vikings, and Normans. It has been >occupied >by various conquerors over its history like Korea. Their culture and >freedom >was also suppressed by various occupiers including the English. It is >divided >country with a North Country and South Country like Korea. The Irish have >produce many great fighters in the history of boxing as well as other >fighting >systems. > >Have a Great St. Patrick's Day! > >John Fitzgerald >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Differences between RyuKyu Kempo and Tae Kwon Do ? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:55:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Keith, >From: Wicker, H. Keith [mailto:Wicker@cl.uh.edu] >Professor Clark, > >I have been following the discussions on the digest about the differences >between the basic motion of "karate" and "taekwondo". I had a chance to >review your web site and was impressed by your credentials in Kempo and Tae >Kwon Do. I would like to respectfully ask if you could outline the >differences and similarities in basic motion between RyuKyu Kempo and Tae >Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan.....kicks, hand techniques, etc. > >Thank You, > >Keith Wicker >Wicker's Korean Martial Arts, USKMAF That is a rather large request, large enough for a book I should guess. >From my point of view, and this has come from my experience as a whole - not just isolated arts. I think there are more similarities in what I have studied than not. Are the stances, leg movements, hand movements delivered a bit different? Yes, but not to the degree that you may think. Take a simple example of stance such as a horse stance. If you were to put a "karate guy" and a "Tae Kwon Do guy" in the stance - plain gi/dobok and plain belt I doubt you could tell the difference between the two. Or have them do a punch - probably similar enough that you could not differentiate between the two. Front, side, and roundhouse kicks would probably be similar enough (at least from the old style of Tae Kwon Do that I learned) that you would not be able to tell the difference. Once you get into the jumping kicks other than the normal front, side, and round kicks you would probably say that guy is most likely Tae Kwon Do. Forms? Well in both of the arts you mention they used the Pinan/Heian/Pyung-ahn forms so the differences would be minor. Now if you used the modern Tae Kwon Do forms that would be a different story. For me - the various arts I have studied have blended together over the years to the extent it's really hard for me to say "this is from XYZ style". That is one reason I formed my own group. Rather than have to say this is from XYZ system, I simply teach a technique and don't worry about attribution. I truly believe all complete systems of martial arts will share common techniques the thing that will cause variations in systems is the syllabus and the emphasis placed on various techniques. For example: In Judo / Ju-jitsu one of the foundation skills is falling and throwing. However, in Karate / Tae Kwon Do foundation techniques are the stances, kicks, strikes. Later in the syllabus of Judo / Ju-jitsu you will learn kicks, strikes, etc. and later in Karate / Tae Kwon Do you learn to throw and be thrown. Each of the major systems here will perform their core skills better than the other. Judo / Ju-jitsu will be better at throwing than Karate / Tae Kwon Do and they will be better at the kicks and strikes of Judo and Ju-jitsu. Just because of the emphasis on the training syllabus and the expertise of the instructors. Now here is where I tend to separate myself for many others. I truly believe if you want to learn how to throw, seek out the instruction of a Judo / Ju-jitsu instructor. If you want to learn defense against a knife or stick go to a Arnis instructor. And if you want good kicking and hand techniques seek out a Karate / Tae Kwon Do instructor. Learn from the best you can in a specific area of martial arts you are interested in and make use of their knowledge. If you are an instructor you should not feel like you are betraying your art or instructor if you seek information from another source. You can't expect every instructor to know everything about the martial arts. So make use of those around you and learn from them. Sorry to ramble - by the way I'll be away from my computer for several days as I'll be in Chicago teaching a seminar. So I may miss some responses or not be very quick in responses. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest