Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:49:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #130 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Kicks, again (Rick Clark) 2. Re: Jye's Ninjutsu Clips (Jye nigma) 3. Craig Stovall... (George Peters) 4. RE: re: 90% at Cho Dan? (Lasich, Mark D.) 5. Re: Self-defense in CT (Chris LaCava) 6. RE: RE: re: 90% at Cho Dan? (Rick Clark) 7. New Taekwondo (Stovall, Craig) 8. Just a heads up notice... (Theron Hunter) 9. Welcome back (Rudy Timmerman) 10. RE: HKD in California (ISA Headquarters) 11. (no subject) (Ed Scarsellato) 12. Use of Korean and/or Japanese terms (A. Boyd) 13. Re: New Taekwondo (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kicks, again Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray >From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >> Yep I did as well. BUT we also did the same thing we would bring our >> leg up as if we were going to do a front kick then switch to a >> roundhouse or a side kick which ever area seemed to be open for that >> particular kick. So from what you describe that's still "old school" to >> me :-) > >Ok, then I'm lost. Do you see Shotokan guys do that? Or is that not >a difference in basic leg motion in your eyes? > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com We, in the school of Tae Kwon Do that I was practicing in, did it that way. I can't speak to all Shotokan guys, but I have seen Karate guys do that as well. I think that has been a rather common open tournament technique for quite sometime. By doing a kick in that way you had three options - but to do it well you had to have a good deal of flexibility. I forgot to mention my favorite way to do that was to switch in what we called a reverse roundhouse kick. While most people would say that is truly a Korean kick, Nakayama has that kick in his book - but he does not do it very well. Thinking on kicks there is one thing at least from what I have been taught about Tae Kwon Do was that the side kick was done only with the heel, never the knife edge of the foot as in Japanese Karate. Our side kicks were always the thrust version rather than the "snap" kicks of Japanese style. But then I see guys now kicking with the knife edge and doing snap kicks so some styles of Tae Kwon Do may have taught that (or continued to teach that from Shotokan) but the version of Chung Do Kwan I practiced did not. Later, Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:09:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jye's Ninjutsu Clips To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Stovall, Craig" wrote: I see the name "Bujinkan" from time-to-time on the net, magazines, etc. Does that term reflect a style/system/lineage that falls under Hatsumi? Yes the Bujinkan was created by Hatsumi sensei. His lineage is of the Iga traditions. Others are genbukan, and jenbukan (?)...They are all iga based systems. So, are there lineages out there that are truly independent from Hatsumi's teachings? outside of iga-ryu systems (bujinkan,genbukan, jenbukan) there are believed to be Koga systems. Many in the bujinkan say this is not true because the last grandmaster or soke of koga ryu died in a car accident as did his most high students. >From my understanding, there were multiple groups/tribes/organizations that practiced what could be described as "ninjutsu" back in Japan's feudal days. I'm wondering if Hatsumi represents the only single, unbroken link to those traditions, or are there other groups/individuals who claim a lineage back to those old traditions? Not only is bujinkan a part of japanese history for japan but also for Korea. It is said that Takamatsu (33rd Grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu) is said to have studied 18 korean and chinese systems. I places this happening sometime around 1910, so he may have possessed knowledge of korean systems then and possibly more authentic korean systems. Jye Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:21:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Craig Stovall... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Do you imply that you no longer watch Sho Kosogi , or you no longer watch when you think someone is watching you? I myself must admit that I have moved on to Mortal Kombat,but don't mind looking back. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:02:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: re: 90% at Cho Dan? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Rick Clark wrote: >No the point I am trying to make is a bit more than the superficial >level we seem to be stuck at. Try to think at a more basic level. The >body mechanics of a technique, the use of relaxation of various muscles >and the proper application of force. I think I am beginning to understand your point of view on this, and agree about the pure and simple basic mechanics. It is clearer to me when I think about separating these mechanics from actual techniques! THEN, I agree there is a far greater portion learned, but I still can not place a percentage on it ;-) Looking at it another way, and probably why your view didn't click at first: within the ATA, at the gup level, power generation is typically generated through the use of reactionary force (for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction). So, if I am to throw a right punch, I begin with my left hand out as though it just finished punching. Then as my right punch comes out, my left hand retracts - providing an equal, but opposite force. At the dan level, power generation is generated through (more) emphasis on hip action. This lends itself to single arm techniques - just throw the right punch, no need to chamber the left! Also, the concept of "off-set timing" is also introduced. So, it appears that within some organizations, specifically the ATA, actual mechanics can and do differ somewhat between gup and dan level. Due to this, there are a whole range of "new techniques" that must be learned. Not to mention that none of the gup forms include circular hand techniques. Plus, too, at the dan level, nearly all hand techniques begin as closed-fist, and open only if appropriate (e.g. knife-hand strike). So, based on this, can you see how your assessment of 90% was hard to understand within aspects of Songahm Taekwondo? In the spirit, Mark P.S. I'll gladly take my inspiration from whomever, and whenever it comes. You just happen to be lucky this time! So, Master Clark, you stand accused! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:56:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Self-defense in CT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda <> Hi Melinda, I am about 40 minutes from Naugatuck. I do private intruction on Tuesdays and Thursdays mornings and early afternoons. If he is interested, I would love to help him out. My number is 203-767-6567 Take care. :) Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms – all in one place at MSN Money! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: re: 90% at Cho Dan? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:34:01 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark, >>No the point I am trying to make is a bit more than the superficial >>level we seem to be stuck at. Try to think at a more basic level. The >>body mechanics of a technique, the use of relaxation of various muscles >>and the proper application of force. > >I think I am beginning to understand your point of view on this, and agree about the >pure and simple basic mechanics. It is clearer to me when I think about separating >these mechanics from actual techniques! THEN, I agree there is a far greater portion >learned, but I still can not place a percentage on it ;-) Ok lets not get stuck on a "percentage". I really like the 80/20 rule of Paretto and I tend to think along those lines a lot. In a nut shell (from a business perspective) "you get 80% of your business from 20% of your customers. Anyway - its my opinion you get the greatest amount of learning in the run up to your 1st dan. At that time you have been taught the vast majority of the techniques of a system (how well you perform them will be debatable and gives you the room to improve in the art). But the underlying thought is you have at your disposal the core system. As an example, Choi Hong Hi was a 1st or 2nd dan in Shotokan. From there he developed O Do Kwan. You have a great number of instructors from the 1945 period who if you look at the dates they started and then compare the ranks they achieved were rather different than by today's standard. > >Looking at it another way, and probably why your view didn't click at first: within the >ATA, at the gup level, power generation is typically generated through the use of >reactionary force (for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction). So, if I am >to throw a right punch, I begin with my left hand out as though it just finished >punching. Then as my right punch comes out, my left hand retracts - providing an >equal, but opposite force. That is a concept that has been around for longer than the ATA :-) > >At the dan level, power generation is generated through (more) emphasis on hip >action. This lends itself to single arm techniques - just throw the right punch, no need >to chamber the left! Also, the concept of "off-set timing" is also introduced. Again not a new concept, nor is it confined to TKD. Take boxing for example, you don't see a boxer pulling a hand back as they punch. They keep their guard up and punch. I have had a student who was a pro, or semi-pro boxer (can't remember which) who could punch a bag as hard as I could kick the bag. He did not chamber the punch nor did he use reactionary force of an arm being pulled back. > >So, it appears that within some organizations, specifically the ATA, actual mechanics >can and do differ somewhat between gup and dan level. Due to this, there are a >whole range of "new techniques" that must be learned. Not to mention that none of >the gup forms include circular hand techniques. Plus, too, at the dan level, nearly all >hand techniques begin as closed-fist, and open only if appropriate (e.g. knife-hand >strike). Let's look at this a moment, if you will. Someone walks into your school and wants to learn martial arts. A common principle of psychology is that you revert to previously learned behavior in moments of stress. So what we do with white belts is "overwrite" there previous responses to stimulus and teach them new responses. Agreed? Then once you get to 1st dan you say you then teach them a new set of responses (or ways to respond)? Would it not make more sense to train a person from day one in the response you want to overwrite and not have to retrain the individual? > >So, based on this, can you see how your assessment of 90% was hard to >understand within aspects of Songahm Taekwondo? While I am not familiar with the syllabus of Songahm Tae Kwon Do, as it is taught today, I was taught the same syllabus of Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan as Hang Un Lee and we both shared the same head of Chung Do Kwan (Son Duk Son). I received instructions from Lee when he was still affiliated with Son. At that time Lee practiced and taught the same syllabus as Son Duk Son and that's what I was taught. So while the current Songahm TKD may be different, I suspect the basic techniques are very similar to what I am familiar with. > >In the spirit, >Mark > >P.S. I'll gladly take my inspiration from whomever, and whenever it comes. You just >happen to be lucky this time! So, Master Clark, you stand accused! Yikes :-) By the way don't expect responses to this for a few days as I'll be in Chicago teaching seminars. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:31:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] New Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> For those of us that don't keep up with Olympic TKD, what are the major contributions coming from the westerners as of late? Are they continuing to refine individual techniques...for example, continuing to evolve the form and delivery of the "sport style roundhouse" (or some other technique)? Or, is the contribution more toward how the techniques are strung together (more akin to ring strategy)? Or, is the contribution more toward sport specific conditioning techniques? Or, is it all (or none) of these? Thanks!!! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:21:55 -0800 (PST) From: Theron Hunter To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Just a heads up notice... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Beforehand, I want everyone to know that I may be coming up in a later issue of TKDTimes, and that my pics may be in an article of Mr. Hackworth. These are NOT new pictures! They are over a year old, and he has had them for that long. I cut my ties to him as soon as I found out that he had scammed two good Hap Ki Do men (Master Frank and Master Fabian. Not to mention how many countless others). The only tie that I had to him was that I had joined his NHA in the form of a lifetime membership. I bought NO Rank Certificates of ANY kind from him, so he did not get to take advantage of me that way. What he did do though, was lose my trust, by the way he treated others. He also dragged my name in the mud, by way of association. So if you see any pics of me in any of his upcoming artilces, please know that is because he already had them, and that he wants to get some validation for his "New" KHF Organization. One great person who has been behind me through all of this (nasty for Hap Ki Do, and all of Mu Do for that matter) all, is Mr. Alain Burrese. A special thank you Sir(and Congrats on the birth of Cosette!!!). And Thank all of you for your time, and for your support. Peace... Sincerely, Steve M. Arce Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:32:15 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome back Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick writes: > Finally made it back to the world, at least for now. Welcome back Rick. Glad you made it home safe and sound. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:54:07 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: HKD in California Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Who knows any good Hapkido instructors around the San Fernando Valley? George --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Ed Scarsellato" To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:52:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lake Erie Ohio AAU Championship/Qualifier Saturday May 8th 2004 Streetsboro High School 1900 Annalane Dr Streetsboro OH 44241 www.eteamz.com/sites/leaautkd leaautkd@neo.rr.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:11:35 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Use of Korean and/or Japanese terms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Steve Arce wrote: "...I just use "Kanji" more than "Hanja"(For the general Martial Arts public)...." I reply: I understand and am glad that you already know the Korean term. Others may not though, so I took a free minute to supply it. I joined this list to learn things and from time to time try to repay those who have helped me by doing my part in my own small way. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] New Taekwondo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:49:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > << Taekwondo as they once did. You now see a lot of improvement (i.e. more > effective for the sport game) in Taekwondo technique coming out of the > national teams from the US, European countries, etc.>>> > > For those of us that don't keep up with Olympic TKD, what are the major > contributions coming from the westerners as of late? Are they continuing to > refine individual techniques...for example, continuing to evolve the form > and delivery of the "sport style roundhouse" (or some other technique)? Or, > is the contribution more toward how the techniques are strung together (more > akin to ring strategy)? Or, is the contribution more toward sport specific > conditioning techniques? Or, is it all (or none) of these? Thanks!!! The Grand Pooh-bah is no expert here (as Grandmaster U will no doubt claim)... but in general yes. Primarily in the middle two points you make above. Or that is my impression. Master Hodder.?.? Others? Your thoughts. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest