Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:48:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #139 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Testing (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Assistant Instructors (Lois Knorr) 3. 50 year olds! (Charles Richards) 4. Re: Austin Seminar (Edward) 5. Testing (Charles Richards) 6. Teaching methods (Charles Richards) 7. From Another Group.....gun disarm (Jye nigma) 8. Re: Age in TKD (Jye nigma) 9. EB Sell (tim walker) 10. RE: "older" martial artists (Denise) 11. Re: Black Belt Testing (Manuel Maldonado) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 00:00:30 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff writes: > I am more about principles than number of techniques anyway so the > higher they get, the less comprehensive the tests become. But they > ALWAYS leave a test, perhaps not feeling like they deserve the next > belt (they do of course), but they have learned, tweaked and improved > several things on a permanent basis at that point and that is what my > tests are meant to instill in them anyway. Plus a little nervousness. > P.S. My question in all of this, yes there is one, don't you get > bored with comprehensive tests. I sure would.... Hello Jeff: As others have mentioned, I am pretty much in the know what my students can do; however, this is not about MY believing what they can do... it is about making THEM believe what they can do under stress. As far as getting bored, I guess I keep them too busy to notice:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:58:40 -0500 (EST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Assistant Instructors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From a student's view: I am currently taking weapons training from an instructor whose teaching method consists of standing at the front of the class, intently watching each student while apparently not watching any. Every third or fourth class, he will review each person's material one-on-one and offer two to three (maximum) points for the student to correct. His most senior student (and assistant instructor) is of the "nit-picking" style. He will provide the student with a barrage of details to be perfected. I find the combination an excellent learning program. When the instructor leads the class, I am able to focus on improving my form unimpeded by interruptions. When the senior student leads the class, and is focused on me, I have an opportunity to fine-tune my technique. I admit that the assistant instructor is better in small doses Laughing Lois --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:06:23 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 50 year olds! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank Writes, I've been lurking a while but decided to chime in on this one. I'm in a similar (though perhaps even worse) position. I'm 51 about 4 months new to practicing TKD and have set my sights on black belt. It will perhaps be the most difficult and physically demanding thing I have ever done. And yes it will be a personal triumph. Will I be as expert of a practitioner as a 20 year old ... or a 55 year old who has been working at it for 30+ years? Of course not. But I will be a 54 or 55 year old who has achieved something worth doing. ---------------------------------------------------- Dear Frank, Bravo! I have a 50 year old mother who is training with her 13 year old only daughter. I think it started as a bonding experience, but will be yet another accomplishment to add to her...degree in architecture and MBA, comptroller of a large real estate company, and now owner of her own real estate investment business. She has been with me over two years earning her 3rd Gup Brown Belt at 50. She will be about 51 or 52 when she makes chodan and is a great asset to our school. I can think of few accomplishments in my short 39 years more important to me than my 1st dan promotion. Hope you stick around to make a very wise 60 years young master :-) Train with jung do in your heart, The rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:23:40 -0800 From: Edward To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Austin Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My most favorite part of this seminar in Austin, it is quite literally being held in my neighborhood.  I am guessing it will take all of ten minutes in Austin traffic to get there.  It certainly beats 10 hours to Jackson, although I will make that drive again for sure. looking forward Edward Rudy Timmerman wrote: Master DeWitt writes: Is this NKMAA seminar still scheduled for March 26th, 27th & 28th? Hello Master DeWitt: Yes, I am leaving for Austin on Thursday with Manfred, and Tim JKN has already left (driving). We hope to see many of our DD friends there, and I hope you can make it yourself if the family issues allow for it. Master Thomas has done a tremendous job in organizing this event, and it looks like we'll have a ball training with some good people for three days. Drive safe everyone:) Sincerely, Rudy _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:44:47 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wanted to thank Master Terry for creating a forum where us junior masters and school owners can compile and evaluate so much valuable information. I will try to share my insights revelations from following this thread, and for brevity I might cut the pasted portions down a little, with no intention of misquoting anyone. Mark L. Posts I concur that limiting the number of corrections (of a student or a class) gives students ample time to work on and integrate that change. To continue with this, another thing that drives me crazy is a student "learning" their whole form, or even half of it the first class after they got their new rank. In Songahm TKD, there is no similarity between the forms, even at the gup level. For me, work on the "new" basic material for that rank the first week, perhaps introduce some combinations they will learn in their form that week or the next, but by no means make it a race to see who can learn the form the quickest! Any other approaches out there? MC = I use a monthly progress check so yes month one learn the new motions and opening moves of your new pattern, month two learn about half the new pattern, by month three know all the moves by memory. Hopefully in month four when the student tests they at least look like they should for their level of experience and only 30 classes on that material. Some students are very visual and “pick up” the entire form in a few viewing, but there are always little pottery corrections still… Klaas Posts If you have a personal student-teacher relationship, you won't need to test. I know before hand wether or not a student will make the exam or not. The test is just a formality and usually takes something like an hour or so (for the whole group to do their exam). People have to screw up really bad in order not to make the exam, and it will depend on the person. MC = I agree, by “exam” is more of a celebration. I have never failed a student, but have had many private conversations about waiting one more month to polish up XYZ. The current “record” is 7 months to 9th gup and another 5 to 8th gup yellow. This young lady was 6 at that time. This August will be two years and she just received her 6th gup green belt. What I don't understand is that some masters want to test the students of their students. This master usually doesn't know the students, hasn't worked with them, doesn't know where they come form etc. etc. He's probably just there for the money. MC = Usually yes. The only exception I see is Master/Owner wants to test Master Instructor/direct student students (clients of master/owner). Like say I’m a 6th Dan with 250 students and a 4th Dan Chief instructor, as owner of the school, I would still want to sit on the testing panel for gups as a quality control thing. GM Timmerman Posts Hello Bruce and Charles: This seems to be in direct opposition to the way I conduct a test. My students are also asked to perform everything they have ever been taught; however, I pay closer attention to their FIRST belt than their last. If there is no significant improvement (or if the basic/previously learned material begins to slip), my students won't pass. I give lots of leeway on the new material they just learned, but I really tighten up on their previous material as we move along. FWIW. MC = Actually, I place more emphasis on what the basics and older forms look like and expect really a -, check, + type “grade” on the new form with most students at a ++ on the beginner stuff, and a check on their newest stuff. One way to unsure having me saddle up on you is to ace your new form and “forget” one of the Kicho Hyungs. They usually get “the lecture” at that point. Bruce Posts Oddly enough I can see the logic in this as well. I can also imagine the exhaustion that comes from having to execute every technique of every previous belt, or do you take a random selection of techniques from each rank? My sense is that our different approaches to testing probably comes from our different systems for organizing our curriculums. If you are using the Confucian Approach then I think it would almost be necessary to test with an exhaustive catalogue of techniques. When I use the Academic Approach I can assume that later material will reflect mastery of earlier material or the person wouldn't be able to make the later material work for them. Which forms do you make you students responsible for and do you also test the candidate on their ability to explain/teach what they are practicing? MC = yes our testing approach is a direct fall out of my curriculum arrangement. I think it would be hard to perform Pyung Ahn 1 without some degree of mastery of all the concepts and basic motions in Kicho 1 &2. I make students do all the forms they know, in groups. If you mess up, you get to do the form solo until you do it correctly. The ability to teach what you are learning is a written requirement for Red belt (2nd gup), but really a normal part of our regular class for all adult color belts. In my block type classes. A new student is always matched up with a senior student. The seniors are giving feedback to junior during the entire drill. I know for many traditional TSD MDK folks this is a little too no traditional, but it is one of the JKD aspects that creeps into our philosophy. Feedback is a part of learning and so it is encouraged during drills. Second point, with only 30 students, I have a personal relationship with each one. They are actually “testing” in all 30 classes leading up to the “exam” and so, I may not ask to see certain things listed in our manual if I know everyone’s ability with those skills. Master DeWitt Posts I completely concur with this approach. With the TKD Hyungs, I will have the students do them from their lowest to their highest Hyung, W.T.F. & I.T.F. Than they will complete them in reverse, highest Hyung to their lowest. MC = I’m curious as to why during a test setting you have them do the same material you just saw in reverse order? Also curious as to why two sets of hyung. If the hyung represent the philosophy of the system it looks to me like you are teaching two foundations at the same time? For me, if I was going to go down the KKW cert road and/or WTF competition, I would just do the 8 TaeKyuk. If I really liked the ITF stuff, I would jettison the “new made up” WTF patterns and ignore the KKW certs. Anyway, no disrespect intended, I’m just curious as to why different people on this list do things the way they do. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:56:01 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris posts I read an article sometime ago by Dave Lowry in which he spoke about different methods instructors have of offering advice/correction to students. The first method he described as being something like what a potter does and consists of nearly continuous corrections or "touch-ups" on the student's performance. The second method he described as being akin to a swordsmith, who pulls the blade form the fire gives it a good, hard smack or two and then replaces it in the heat. Dear Chris, Thanks for exiting lurk mode. I'm finding the second method works real good with my kids and the first method is craved by the "hardcore" committed adults . Remember my post about DI days. Every once in awhile I'll use the hard smack on about three concepts and marvel at how much better the darn thing cuts. Monday it was proper stances, moving explosively on the count (reaction), and even neat belts and standing still when at attention (bow in ceremony), which was really a lesson in self discipline and the old "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well lecture." For the first method I have a series of lectures I think I'm going to just say into a digital recorder so I can hit play. Keep your hands up while kicking Why waste all the inertia for one technique, use combinations in sparring Roll from shoulder to hip, not on your spine Lock out your back leg in front stance If you don't make a tight fist you're going to get hurt Chamber the Um hand! And the never ending if there are no hips it's not TSD Be Well, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 00:30:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] From Another Group.....gun disarm Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Since the gun is the weapon of the current age, I thought we could discuss some gun disabling tricks. The Automatic: Most automatics have a slide that is pulled back to cycle the gun. The gun can only be fired between cycles. Because of this, one trick is to somehow push the slide back a bit which actually disables the gun. One cocky method: suppose someone jabs a gun into your chest. Push your weight into the gun enough that it pushes the slide back a small amount, the gun is then disabled. The hard part is that the barrel usually won't move, just the slide, so try to avoid hitting the barrel while putting pressure on the slide. The Revolver: A single action (SA) revolver means that you must pull the trigger the full length before it will fire. Some single-action/double-action revolvers allow you to either pull the full trigger length, or you can cock the hammer first, there are a few variations in design. In either case, if the hammer is not cocked then the drum will have to turn as the trigger is pulled for it to fire. This means that an uncocked revolver being pointed at you offers you a way to prevent the trigger from being pulled. Simply reach up and get a death grip on the drum and it cannot fire. Another adjunct to this is to slip your pinky or index finger under the hammer, and again it will not fire (though it sure is gonna hurt). Handgun Disarms: All taijutsu students should be skilled in gun disarms. Unfortunately I feel that few ever train in this. To properly train in this you should have a realistic looking handgun WITHOUT the trigger guard, it should be sawed off. Without this there is a high probability of breaking the holder's finger during a disarm. Save the handgun replica for the advanced disarm practice after you're good. I've found that there are angles to attack the gun-holding hand which make it nearly impossible to hold onto a gun when executed properly. In testing this, we've found that even clenching with your tightest grip cannot allow you to hold onto the gun. As usual, the thumb is the weak-point. Imagine a guy is holding a gun at you in his right hand. Using your right hand, bring it up towards the barrel of the gun hooking your thumb underneath the barrel and use your thumb mostly to redirect the weapon. I say this because if it's an automatic, you don't want to be gripping the top where the slide is when the gun goes off and the slide cycles. Redirect the gun, maybe it goes off, maybe it doesn't, in any case get it away from you and you move also. For the next part with your fingers you would reach over the top of the gun (thumb still hooked into the bottom) and then pull the whole thing towards you (this part is hard to explain verbally). Done right the gun will easily break free of his grip BUT his trigger finger will remain trapped in the trigger guard. This is where it's dangerous and you may break someone's fingers. So you can either slip it out or do something else. In any case, establish control over the gun and you're done. Any of you guys got any other interesting gun tricks? Send em in. ~AP Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 00:55:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Age in TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think the older people should understand that at a certain age, you shouldn't be trying to keep up with the younger guys because your training isn't the same. Think of it like this. The younger guys are cheetahs, older people are like lions. Now although a lion can't run as fast as (keep up with) cheetahs, it has it's on specialty, camoflauge and ambush, over whelming power). So because of its own unique specialties, it can catch its intended prey. So although the lion may never be as fast as the cheetah, it still is effective; utilizing what it has to the best of it's abilities making it work for him, and still has it's place in the jungle. So in your training, understand that your training is different from the younger guys; you may not be as fast but you can use what you have to hold your own. Jye Art VanVranken wrote: Hang in there all you older gents. I was 42 when I started in TKD. Now at 55, I still cant keep up with the teens and 20s Students, but as a Third Dan, they come to me for help in the forms and still ask for advice. Pushups are still difficult but I muddle through them. Sometimes beating out the younger students. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:21:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] EB Sell Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tkdtom wrote: <> Is this the same Eddie B. Sell that once locked the doors to his TKD tournament/exhibition/event and said that no one was leaving until they all accepted Jesus Christ? What makes his org any more real and credible than anyone else's? Stirring the pot in the grand tradition, tim --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Denise" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:37:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "older" martial artists Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye writes-- "I think the older people . . . Think of it like this. The younger guys are cheetahs, older people are like lions . . . although the lion may never be as fast as the cheetah, it still is effective; utilizing what it has to the best of its abilities making it work for him, and still has its place in the jungle. . . . you may not be as fast but you can use what you have to hold your own." Great stuff, Jye and just to add . . . the BEST bumper sticker ever: "Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill" :-) Denise, the ancient grasshopper --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:48:52 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brian Congradulations!!! Welcome to our world. Its always nice to welcome a new Black Belt. Keep up the good work and remember to teach others the Way. Tae Kwon Manuel Maldonado http://devoted.to/Taekwondo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest