Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:09:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #143 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Credentials of Edward B. Sell (tkdtom) (Donnelly, Eamonn) 2. Gun defense (Burdick, Dakin R) 3. Charles gets off soapbox (Charles Richards) 4. Re: Gun defense (Jye nigma) 5. Re: Pushing slide with your chest (Jye nigma) 6. Re: Re: From Another Group....gun disarm (Jye nigma) 7. Re: RE: "older" martial artists (Jye nigma) 8. Re: Tom and EB Sell (tkdtom) 9. Re: From Another Group....gun disarm (ABurrese@aol.com) 10. claims (J.R. West) 11. Time in training (David Weller) 12. A quick response. (FirstPe315@aol.com) 13. Mr.Edward b. Sell (C. Bonner) 14. Re: Choi Hong-Hi & Song Duk-Ki (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Donnelly, Eamonn" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:20:44 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Credentials of Edward B. Sell (tkdtom) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Snip > 1966 - First American to receive a 4th Degree Black Belt, earning him the title of Highest Ranked Non-oriental in Taekwondo, (of which he still holds today.) > 1987 - 8th Degree Black Belt World Chung Do Kwan Association-Seo End Snip Just curious when did he get his 5th, 6th and 7th Degree black belts Kindest regards Eamonn Johnson's Tang Soo Do UK Confidentiality Note: The information in this electronic mail ("e-mail") message may be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by privilege, work product immunity or other applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient the retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this electronic mail ("e-mail") in error please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0) 24 7686 2000 or by e-mail at postmaster@cel-international.com. Thank you. Registered in England No. 3877626 Registered Office 256 Foleshill Road Coventry CV6 5AB --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:15:24 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Gun defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye had some great information on gun defense. The USHF works on gun defenses as well. Here's what I teach my guys: 1. If he just wants money, give him the money. We've all seen WAY too many incidents of martial artists getting shot or killed. 2. If you think he's going to shoot you, and he's not close or if he's just too damn big, run like hell. 3. If you think he's going to shoot you, and he's close, and he's not too big, then I tend to have my guys go for either an armpit armbar or a fan lock (aka. kotegaeshi, pulhae). We keep the possible responses to an inward rotation or outward rotation for the sake of simplicity, and also because you may not really know what is in his hand. If it is dark it could be a knife or something else, so we practice techniques that don't require gripping the weapon itself. Yours in the arts, Dakin --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:33:16 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Charles gets off soapbox Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "There are many great martial artists and GM Sell just happens to one of those near the top of the list. One day I hope to attend the Jackson event and be exposed to some of the other great martial artists that I hear about on this list." Dear Tom, Sorry about my late night soap box yesterday. I really like this version better. I hope I get to meet you in Jackson. I consider folks like GM West, GM Timmerman, GM Hodder, Master Whalen, Master Booth and Master Mac among the top leaders in their respective arts regardless of nationality, age, race, gender or beer preference :-) Lets not get to foccussed on what's in a frame on the wall versus what we can learn on the mat, yes? Train with jung do in your heart, the rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com USKMAF - Georgia __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:05:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gun defense To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Great training. I did see a presentation where someone advised people to carry a clip of money (could be something like a 5 dollar bill covering pieces of paper cut in equal size as the five). Put that in a money clip and when someone is trying to rob you you throw the money one direction and run in the other. I found that interesting. When done for example there was a distance between the two (attacker & victim), this allowed the would be victim to distract the attacker and make good his get away. *To build on that I was thinking of using fake money underneath the real bill so should the bills flare out the attacker wont really be able to see it's fake money, then by the time he does see it, well you'll be long gone. Jye "Burdick, Dakin R" wrote: Jye had some great information on gun defense. The USHF works on gun defenses as well. Here's what I teach my guys: 1. If he just wants money, give him the money. We've all seen WAY too many incidents of martial artists getting shot or killed. 2. If you think he's going to shoot you, and he's not close or if he's just too damn big, run like hell. 3. If you think he's going to shoot you, and he's close, and he's not too big, then I tend to have my guys go for either an armpit armbar or a fan lock (aka. kotegaeshi, pulhae). We keep the possible responses to an inward rotation or outward rotation for the sake of simplicity, and also because you may not really know what is in his hand. If it is dark it could be a knife or something else, so we practice techniques that don't require gripping the weapon itself. Yours in the arts, Dakin _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:16:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pushing slide with your chest To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm gonna have to agree. If someone puts a gun to my chest my natural movement will be to put my hands up. I really doubt if I'll be thinking about what type of gun it is....it could be a zip gun for all I care, I know the basic concept; pull trigger, release bullet...lol. So my approach as with many other systems is to get out of the path of danger. Unfortunately, I don't think the guy who wrote that is a part of a true ryuha of ninjutsu that would teach him anything like that...maybe the hollywood school of gun disarms. But this does open up the floor for some good discussion about gun defense(s). Let's talk about 2 versions of gun disarms of course at close range handguns and rifle types. Jye michael tomlinson wrote: This is by far one of the most ridiculous and dangerous statements I have ever heard anyone say about disarms... even if it would WORK you are putting yourself at more danger by trying it... when you push on a loaded firearm with your chest you might want to think about the FINGER ON THE TRIGGER FIRST!!! unbelievable... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable access on MSN 9 Dial-up. 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time offer) http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:21:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: From Another Group....gun disarm To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net No by all means, continue. I'm actually sending him the responses to his post. He is one of those "know it alls" so I was just showing him how many people agree with me that his "tricks" are foolish to the 3rd degree. Jye ABurrese@aol.com wrote: I just had to make a quick comment, since I cringe when I see posts like this. Especially when someone reports to teach you gun disabling "tricks." I could go on and on about what was wrong with this, but let me first point out the most obvious. The post said: >The Revolver: >A single action (SA) revolver means that you must pull the trigger the >full >length before it will fire. Some single-action/double-action revolvers >allow >you to either pull the full trigger length, or you can cock the hammer >first, there are a few variations in design Without saying anything else, when one is going to post things about guns, they should first make sure they know what they are saying. The above discription is wrong. With a single action revolver, you must cock the hammer back before you can fire. If the hammer is forward, you can pull the trigger all day long and it is not going to fire, and so on. Sorry to sound negative, but it really bothers me when I see people posting, saying, teaching things that are not accurate and can get people killed. I especially like "the gun may go off and it may not" Did you discuss where the gun is pointed? Yeah, I'm a bad ass that can take a gun from someone, so instead of just handing over my wallet or turning and running as fast as possible away from the person with the gun. (which by the way is one of the best defenses there is - not cool, not macho, not something you can later bragg about - but something that increases your odds of staying alive) So I do my fancy gun disarm, I clear the weapon and it discharges, but since I cleared it, I am okay. My wife, who was at my side took the bullet instead, since clearing it caused it to go off and hit her. If not her, maybe the kid or old lady across the street, etc. What if you try this on someone who knows what they are doing with a gun? I need to stop and go do something else, before I go on all night about this stuff. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:27:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "older" martial artists To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks. Another way to look at it is you're not having to "keep up" You're setting the example....Us younger guys are saplings; able to bend and exhibit extraordinary flexibility, etc., and you older guys are the old oak trees who is very sturdy very well rooted and solid. I believe with each generation comes improvement on the martial arts, but now of that would be possible if we had no one to open the doors or paved the way. Jye Denise wrote: Great stuff, Jye and just to add . . . the BEST bumper sticker ever: "Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill" :-) Denise, the ancient grasshopper _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: tkdtom To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tom and EB Sell Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:49:31 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I took your advice and re-read what you posted and I have to admit my response to you was off the mark. Sorry. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Clay" To: Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 8:26 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Tom and EB Sell > Tom, > > I think you need to re-read what I stated. I never said anything derogatory > about Mr. Sell. Only that I was preached at by him, which is true. I do not > want, nor believe that, TKD, a secular activity, should be an evangelistic > tool. That is my prerogative. I personally have a lineage in CDK. I am aligned > with Master Lim, who shares the same lineage as Master Sell. I do old style > martial art, similar to Son, Duk Sun, the second president of the CDK, and > Master Sell does "new style" or Kukkiwon style. There is nothing wrong with > that either. > > Remember, simply because someone does not like your teacher, or see something > overly impressive about him is not a reflection on his worth or value. It is > an opinion, and you should accept it as such. In my two and half decades in > Korean Mudo I have seen many teachers. Some fantastic, and some mediocre. Ed > Sell IS legitimate as far as I know, but there is nothing about him that sets > him truly apart from other legitimate teachers, which is not necessarily a bad > thing... other than he, like many Koreans, calls himself grandmaster. There is > no such term used in Korea, and in fact, I have had Koreans, most recently > Sun, Book Bae, tell me as much, as well as, indicate that they do not > understand what this is supposed to mean. I know that statement will be > controversial, but it is accurate. > > Hope this helps, > f. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:09:29 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: From Another Group....gun disarm Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm glad Ray and Mike T. added to some of the other stupid things in that post... I was going to go on more, but didn't, and now don't need to. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:44:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] claims Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles Richards wrote: "No offense, but do a little research before holding someone out as "the highest ranking blah blah blah..." Great thought my friend. One of the things that has always annoyed me about some of the stuff in TKD Times was the occasional self serving nonsense like that. One or two of the things that I recall really irking me was a Hapkido instructor that promised to teach techniques "never taught outside of Korea" at a seminar. How ridiculous! How would ANYONE know what has been brought to the rest of the world by some of the great Hapkido guys from the old days. Another was a gentleman announcing his 7th dan promotion from the World KiDo Federation and his article included the line "1st non Korean to hold this rank from the KiDoHwe". I stared at my Dae Han KidoHwe 7th dan certificate in my office that was already about 5 years old at the time and just had to shake my head and laugh........J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: David Weller Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:52:00 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Time in training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Joon Yong Kim from Wichita just celebrated 29 (or 30) years living and teaching in Wichita. He was already a qualified black belt/ instructor upon his arrival. I'd guess he has been training longer than the 26 years Mr. Luttrell mentions. Just wanted to set the record straight about a man I have utmost respect for. have a groovy day, dave weller On Mar 25, 2004, at 8:13 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:53:52 -0800 (PST) > From: Kevin Luttrell > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] E.B. Sell > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Hello Mr. Richards, > > Chuck Sereff is a great TKD man, When I lived in Colorado Springs I > used to travel up to his school ocassionally. I was merely stating the > facts about G.M. Sell. But since you compared the two....The time > training is really only one aspect of one's standing in the martial > arts world. I have been training for 26 years. Just because someone > trains for a long time doesnt necessarily mean anything. I used to > travel to Wichita, Ks to train with the state president of the USTU. > Mr. Kim, At that time Was Younger than I and has less training time > overall but I still consider him my senior. The quality of his > training during his study even though shorter in years than mine but I > consider him my senior. Time is important but there are many facets to > consider. > > Sabum Kevin Luttrell > The Martial Artist Foundation > Springfield, Mo --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:44:50 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] A quick response. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Timmerman- Fortunately for myself, each test is different and I spend weeks ahead planning it. It might be more exhaustive for me than them. Not sure. But I sure do enjoy it. My students definitely never get bored, I was talking about me. That's why I do what I do. I guess we need to know ourselves yes. Jeff In a message dated 3/24/2004 4:48:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I guess I keep them too busy to notice:) > Sincerely, > Rudy --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "C. Bonner" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:44:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr.Edward b. Sell Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you look at his time line he has been in about 45 year's. He got his 4th dan and started his org. in '67' (37 year's ago). AS a side note, i am not affiliated with Mr.Sell! I just like to dig into history some. :-) C. _________________________________________________________________ Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms – all in one place at MSN Money! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:33:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Choi Hong-Hi & Song Duk-Ki To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mind reading through ki. hmmmm.... I've never heard of such a thing. Ki is the energy-internal which can also strength the outer. A good example of this is the soft flemsy water hose. That hose represents our body, then you flow water through that hose and it strengthens the hose and the hose is stiff and not flemsy anymore. That is how ki flows through the body (that's free of blockages of course). Ki can be used as a retracting power as well as a repelling power. In Choy li fut's system the buddha palm uses these types of chi. But I've never heard of being able to channeling this energy to read minds...well outside of some supposedly ninja tactics. I do believe we can sense certain things intention. We could identify the certain pattern that people come in. There are some things in psychology that can aid us in determining what someone's actions may be. but I highly doubt we can read minds with anything let alone ki power. Now I don't believe in the time traveling thing...lol. But if I could do it, you all know I'd go to Korea around the 3 kingdom period....lol. I'd mess everything up, all your schools text books would have this passage.... "one day a mysterious monk came to the ancient land of Korea teaching them methods of fierce fighting and building a thing called time capsule"....lol. If it were possible to do time travel, I'd serious visit Korea, collect all kinds of lost items like ancient weaponry, history books, korean culture books, every martial art book known to ancient korea. have them create copies of their history books, documentations, and hide those things in the mountains. Then naturally I'd have to visit west africa for obvious reasons. Jye Thomas Gordon wrote: Mr. Burdick, I have a very open mind. There are few things more rewarding than learning new things or new ways. However, I do not have an open mind to someone that claims they can read minds through Ki. I have a real problem with mind reading, levitating, time traveling, and so forth. Not being funny or mean spirited, if someone can demonstrate mind reading or levitating, I would love to meet them at Jackson this fall. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest