Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:44:06 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #145 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Charles (Frank Clay) 2. RE: Charles (Frank Leonard) 3. newbie (tim collatz) 4. Re: newbie (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Gun defense (ABurrese@aol.com) 6. Hey Charles (Dennis McHenry) 7. Kim, Joon training time (Kevin Luttrell) 8. Jump (Ray Terry) 9. GM Sell (Dana Vaillancourt) 10. Zero in Korean (Bert Edens) 11. American Indians (Dana Vaillancourt) 12. Testing, etc. (Bert Edens) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:30:51 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Charles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First off, Hwang Kee, nor any TSD practitioner counts in this discussion. Tang Soo Do is a completely separate entity from Taekwondo. That nullifies any debate regarding them and Kukkiwon, since Kukkiwon exists to promote TKD. Second, I'm not saying I agree with the politics in the TKD world, but you have to face the fact they exist and nothing we do or say will change that fact, or certain people's minds. Hee Il Cho IS Kukkiwon certified, so that rules him out. I personally do not like the ATA, nor do I like them calling themselves TKD. I think they should call themselves something else. It becomes painfully clear when you copyright forms that the intent is not to make good martial artists, but to propagate "Take Your Do". Not to mention, and this may have changed, their process for investigating instructors needs a little revising considering the highly publicized cases of child sexual abuse, notably here in FL. That resulted in a conviction, and was a few years back, so things may have changed. As a father however, I will NEVER let my child so much as visit an ATA school. Now as a Native American, we do use the word tribe, but not in the sense of the way it is commonly used. I am half native American with my mother being of the Eastern Tribe (Band) of the Cherokee Nation. According to our custom, you are whatever your mother is, and since my mother is full blooded native, I am regarded as a Cherokee. It is a matriarchal society. Remember, my "don't count" comment is not representative of my views, but IS representative of many of the prevailing views in the art. If you have a question about my stand or something I say, ask. Don't assume. Anyone who has been around the sport for any length of time, is well aware that things I am saying are unfortunately true. Ignoring unpleasant truth or history makes neither go away. Frank --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Frank Leonard" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Charles Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:15:30 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A defense of ATA. The dojang that I go to is run by two of the finest human beings I have ever met. In the several years since my son has been attending I have had an opportunity to meet and become acquainted with several school owners in the state of Florida and all are good, dedicated practitioners of their art. They care about there customers whether adults or children. (yes, we are their customers). I've even signed on. I did not hear about the particular child abuse incident you mentioned, however, that does not reflect the character of everyone or even anyone else, in an organization. As an illustration I have been a Catholic for over 50 years and have never met anyone who was sexually abused by a priest and I don't condemn the Church because of the misdeeds of a few. While I feel child abuse is perhaps the worst crime there is, it's individuals not organizations that commit it. Isn't it good business to protect your intellectual or otherwise property with patents, copyrights, etc? People, even martial artists need to eat. Finally, after reading this list for several months I wonder is there a "REAL" TSD, TKD, Hapkido, etc. that is universally agreed upon? Does it matter what it's called if you, as an individual, are receiving what you require from an art/sport/practice/lifestyle, etc. Guess that touched a nerve|:>). Yours, Frank Leonard On a journey -----Original Message----- From: Frank Clay [mailto:frankclay@msn.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 9:31 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Charles First off, Hwang Kee, nor any TSD practitioner counts in this discussion. Tang Soo Do is a completely separate entity from Taekwondo. That nullifies any debate regarding them and Kukkiwon, since Kukkiwon exists to promote TKD. Second, I'm not saying I agree with the politics in the TKD world, but you have to face the fact they exist and nothing we do or say will change that fact, or certain people's minds. Hee Il Cho IS Kukkiwon certified, so that rules him out. I personally do not like the ATA, nor do I like them calling themselves TKD. I think they should call themselves something else. It becomes painfully clear when you copyright forms that the intent is not to make good martial artists, but to propagate "Take Your Do". Not to mention, and this may have changed, their process for investigating instructors needs a little revising considering the highly publicized cases of child sexual abuse, notably here in FL. That resulted in a conviction, and was a few years back, so things may have changed. As a father however, I will NEVER let my child so much as visit an ATA school. Now as a Native American, we do use the word tribe, but not in the sense of the way it is commonly used. I am half native American with my mother being of the Eastern Tribe (Band) of the Cherokee Nation. According to our custom, you are whatever your mother is, and since my mother is full blooded native, I am regarded as a Cherokee. It is a matriarchal society. Remember, my "don't count" comment is not representative of my views, but IS representative of many of the prevailing views in the art. If you have a question about my stand or something I say, ask. Don't assume. Anyone who has been around the sport for any length of time, is well aware that things I am saying are unfortunately true. Ignoring unpleasant truth or history makes neither go away. Frank _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "tim collatz" To: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:39:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] newbie Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I've been reading posts for awhile now, never posted before though. I'm fairly new to TKD, little over 2 years and red belt (WTF). Could someone explain the ranking system for me and time requirements? I've met people from other dojangs that have gone from wht to blk in a year. Also, can a person go from a wht to a 4th dan in 8 years? I thought that there were minimum time requirements once a person got to the dan level. I started TKD a little over 2 years ago (at the age of 42) with my 12 year old son and 10 year old daughter. It has sure changed my life! There isn't a day that goes by that I don't practice TKD (well, maybe one). After 2 years I'm still hooked! I used to be in pretty good shape for my age, now I'm in excellent shape! Thanks for the great site. Tim --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] newbie To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:15:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I've been reading posts for awhile now, never posted before though. I'm fairly > new to TKD, little over 2 years and red belt (WTF). Could someone explain the > ranking system for me and time requirements? I've met people from other > dojangs that have gone from wht to blk in a year. Also, can a person go from a > wht to a 4th dan in 8 years? I thought that there were minimum time > requirements once a person got to the dan level. Yes, there are. It varys from org to org. But since you are Kukki-TKD the time requirements are set by the Kukkiwon. So, if a person got to 1st Dan in about one year (as happens in Korea), it would be possible to go from 9th gup to 4th Dan in 8 years. 1 year - 1st Dan 1 year - 2nd Dan 2 years - 3rd Dan 3 years - 4th Dan ------ 7 years Keep in mind these are minimums, not averages. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:21:57 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Gun defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Klaas said: And when you run away, you leave her or the kid behind? That's something you certainly will never hear someone brag about. ************************** Well, anyone that knows me, also knows that I would never leave my wife, kid or friend behind. Just wouldn't happen. The key is running away together. If I was with my family, it would be my responsibility to get them to safty. And there were times when me and my buddies slammed and jammed. We knew when to fight together, and when to run together. (and when to just shup and and do what we were told, since you don't want to try those gun disarms against a cop holding a gun on you.) - but those are different stories.... :-) Nor do I recommend the, "run baby, I'll hold them off, or take care of them, etc." Where is she running to? More danger? Since she loves you, she won't want to leave you in danger either. YOU RUN TOGETHER! If for some reason you can't run, (which more often than not people can run, but make excuses of why maybe they can't) there are de-escalation tactics and non-agressive measures to resolve the situation. Might mean losing your money, your car, and other material items, but at least you have not lost your life. Yes, there are some situations where the only options are to take the gun from the person or die. But these are pretty rare. Even rarer that if the person intends to kill you, that you will even have the opportunity to try a disarm. There are some disarms that will work if the situation is right. (pressing your chest against the barrel isn't one of them, unless you are looking for a giant hole in your chest. - At least I would not want to bet my life on this "trick" - since a guy in Korea was messing around with that same "theory" and put a bullet through his hand into the wall missing my roommate at the time by about a foot) Anyway, Running away is still the best gun defense for most situations rather than trying to take the gun. Run and leave a loved one behind, hell no. Run together. In my second book that I am nearing completion (work and baby got in the way of writing the last six months) I use the example. Guy with a gun demands money, you turn and sprint away. What are the odds he will shoot? Probably won't, but lets say 50 percent of the time he shoots. What are the odds he will hit you. Even people that are good miss moving targets, and every step you take away from him makes the odds of him missing more. (have you seen those shows that show security camera footage of store shoot outs, see how many miss, even at close range) Anyway, 50 percent chance he will shoot, then 50 percent chance he hits you. (and that's giving him some credit) so now you are down to only 25 percent chance of getting shot if you run. Now, what are the chances the GSW will be fatal. Lots of people live through being shot. Heck, my grandfather was shot twice in WWII on different beaches in the Pacific. Let's make it simple and give him 50 percent again. So now, there is only a 12 1/2 percent chance if you run that you will be fatally wounded. and 87 1/2 percent chance that running will save your life. What other gun disarm gives you those odds? How much do you have to train in a technique to get those odds? BTW - based on crime statistics, the odds of getting killed running from an armed assailant are actually a lot less than the 12 1/2 percent. They are down under 5 percent. So those are dang good odds. Those that have read my first book, Hard-Won Wisdom, might remember the story of my buddy who was faced with a gun one night outside a bar in Omaha. (BTW - his wife just had their second little girl in January, so he and I have been exchanging little girl stories, pics, etc.) Rhett was Airborne, Ranger, etc. He thought about trying to take the gun, but was uncertain about what his younger brother would do, and didn't want the chance his brother would take a bullet. So they did what they were told, and handed over keys. Here is the kicker. If Rhett would have done something, just as he was thinking he should, he may have gotten the weapon, but a couple seconds later the guys partner came around the corner. If Rhett would have taken the gun, would his partner have opened up? Who knows. Rhett lost some money that night, as did many in the bar. (After getting Rhett's keys, they marched Rhett and his brother back inside and took everyone's wallet) Rhett did get his car back, it was abandoned across town like they normally are in those situations. I do practice gun defenses. And I do believe there are some that are better than others. And while I have never had to take a gun from someone, I have friends who have. (Peyton for one) I have learned and practiced many over the years. I hope I never have to use one, and that my awareness, avoidance and de-escalation skills will keep me from ever having too. Obviously, it is best to learn from qualified instructors, but there are a couple resources out there that teach some techniques that I believe are better than average for giving you a chance in the unlikely event you have to attempt taking a gun from someone. Kelly McCann's material is good, and I recommend his programs and products. There are others that I'm so-so about. Like some, think some get a bit technical for when a person is scared and has the adrenal dump messing with his systems. I have to get back to work. I hope this clarifies some of where I am coming from, and has some useful information for others. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:39:17 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dennis McHenry Subject: [The_Dojang] Hey Charles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Charles, "mostly part Cherokee" I'm part Cherokee too - that makes us blood brothers! We do count, we all count. It's the cultish brainwashing of some of the big orgs (and money) that convince thier members that if you don't belong to them, you're not s@#$%t. That's one of the reasons I went independent, and have aligned myself with the people I have, which includes people like you. I don't get those negitive attitudes from the people I've been working with in the USKMAF or the NKMAA, amoung others. Take care, Mac ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:20:21 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin Luttrell To: dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Kim, Joon training time Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My mistake, on his training time, I always understood Mr. Kim as having less time than that. The point was that the training time really has less to do with it than the quality of training. Where are you located Mr. Weller, are you close to Wichita? I travel that way quite often. Kevin Luttrell The Martial Artist Foundation Springfield, Mo Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at http://www.geocities.com/taekwondoks/ or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up to e on Events: ="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:27:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Jump Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 'Jump' aims at overseas stage "Jump," the high-flying, non-verbal theater show runs for two weeks at the Korean Culture and Arts Foundation Theater starting March 27. Apart from entertaining general audiences, "Jump" will also play to several prominent overseas producers interested in launching the martial arts comedy atop an international stage. "Jump" hopes to follow in the footsteps of "Nanta," the wildly popular non-verbal comedy that combines cooking and traditional Korean drumming. Renamed as "Cookin,'" it is currently enjoying a run at an off-Broadway theater in New York City. "Jump" features a mix of slapstick comedy, martial arts, and acrobatics to tell a story involving two burglars who happen to break into a house occupied by three generations of highly trained martial artists. Once they're in, each member of the household treats their guests to a very painful housewarming. The father is a Taewkwondo expert; the grandfather, a master of taekkyeon, an older form of Korean martial arts; the mother is an acrobat; the uncle practices a fighting style that mimics drunken people; and the daughter performs a deadly version of ballet dancing. Performers in "Jump" feature martial arts champions and former national gymnasts and are led by a team of choreographers that include the former Women's National Gymnastics team coach, Jeong Ok-soo. "Jump" is directed and produced by Choi Chul-ki, a former director of "Nanta." He conceived the idea for "Jump" during a "Nanta" European tour in 2000. "Many producers suggested that I should make a performance based on Taekwondo. I thought it was a good idea," said Choi . The creative team also includes music director Lee Dong-jun, whose past credits include "Nanta" and the movie, "Shiri," and Kim Hee-joo, the costume designer of the musical "Empress Myung-sung." The upcoming production is unveiling a more streamlined version of "Jump" with improved sets, music, and choreography. Producers brought in Robert du Plessis, a renowned "show doctor" with 25 years experience in producing ice skating shows for Disney, to make the show more attractive to potential investors. Production companies from Hong Kong, Macao, England, Singapore, and the United States are expected to attend. After a number of runs in several theaters in and around Seoul, "Jump" is betting that they will soon join the ranks of other non-verbal theater productions from Korea, namely "Nanta" and "Tokkebi Storm," which have in the past performed in such high-profile events as the Edinburgh Festival. Despite its uncertain future in an increasingly competitive market, Song Seung-whan, the creator of "Nanta," said that "Jump" had the benefit of a unique concept that people of all ages and cultures can enjoy. "Unlike most Korean non-verbal performances that are limited to percussions, 'Jump' is based on martial arts and acrobatics. That distinguishes it from other shows. The family oriented story-telling of 'Jump' has a big possibility to evolve into a good drama." He added, "'Nanta went through numerous changes in order to achieve completion of the show. Staff and actors of 'Jump' will have to do the same." "Jump" will be performed from March 27 to April 11 at the Korean Culture and Arts Foundation Theater. Foreign readers of The Korea Herald are invited to join a draw for free tickets for March 27 and 28 evening performances. Send e-mail to michelle@clipservice.co.kr or call 02-501-7888 to apply. Registration deadline is March 23 and 50 winners will each receive two free tickets. The Korean Culture and Arts Foundation Theater is located near Hyehwa Station, Subway Line No. 4, Exit 2. Weekday shows start at 8 p.m. Weekend shows are at 3 p.m. and 7 p.m. Tickets start at 20,000 won and can be purchased through Ticketpark at 1544-1555 or Ticketlink at 1588-7890. For more information, contact (02) 501-7888. warrenlee@heraldm.com By Warren Lee 2004.03.22 --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:52:27 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Sell Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First off, I am not a student of GM Sell, but I have worked with him several times and talked with him on other occassions. He is a Christian, Martial Arts instructor and businessman. That is an interesting combination that does not appeal to everyone and he is not shy about his opinions or beliefs. Well, this is America and you have choices. With that being said, GM Sell has paid has been in Korean TKD for a while and helped paved the way for Americans in Kukki-TKD. He paid his dues and maintained loyalty to his Art, Kwan and instructor. He has also modified his training over time to bring it to a wider audience. And, he was the first American KKW Sahbumnim and 9th dan. So, whether you think he moved up the ranks faster than others, preaches his Christian beliefs excessively, or makes too many claims--he does own a business (Association) and he has earned them. There are many instructor's who do promote themselves modestly (paradox?). Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar – FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:30:55 -0800 (PST) From: Bert Edens To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Zero in Korean Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "Marc McPharlin" > Subject: [The_Dojang] Counting > > Hi all, > My question is brief. > How do you say zero in Korean? I have searched and > not found anything. > Thanks > Marc McPharlin Greetings, sir! Directly from notes taken from my Korean tutor: yung If you're familiar with saying "hyung", the Korean word sometimes used for forms, it's pronounced the same, but without the leading "h". Hope this helps! <> - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:34:15 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] American Indians Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know it is off general topic, but Frank and Charles were kind'a sparring..... My American Indian friends and peers almost always formally introduce themselves by tribe (can be part of a Nation) and lineage (ancesters). And technically, the Tribes ARE sovereign nations. [You don't even want to talk about the blood-quantum issue.] Just my 2 cents working in Indian Country. Dana _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:43:52 -0800 (PST) From: Bert Edens To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, Mr. Spiller... Thought I would weigh in on this, which is something significant, considering my size... :) When we test, we only ask them to do their high pattern and maybe the previous pattern from 10th gup to about 6th gup. Starting at 5th gup, they are testing for an advanced rank (red belt in our system), so they durn well better know all rank material up to that point. We start pushing that in class and testing starting at about 7th gup or so. When you're an 8th gup, remembering your current pattern and maybe the previous on, sparring a couple of rounds, and breaking boards, is an intense testing and asking too much might overwhelm them. But by the time they get to an advanced rank, they should be prepared and capable of performing all rank material up to their current rank, spar multiple opponents, do advanced self-defense, grappling, have multiple station breaks, etc. If they can't, they probably will not be prepared for black belt. That said, my instructor, who is a 5th dan and has been doing MA for over 25 years, said that when he was learning his 1st pattern, his instructor would ask him to do it and when he didn't do it right, would usually say, "Keep practicing, you'll get it" and offer no other feedback. He may show how to do the whole pattern once more, at full speed, but that's it. Amazing how teaching techniques have changed isn't it? It's not uncommon for our students to learn our first pattern (19 moves, and yes, it's Chon Ji :) in one or two classes. <> - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas > I read an article sometime ago by Dave Lowry in > which > he spoke about different methods instructors have of > offering advice/correction to students. The first > method he described as being something like what a > potter does and consists of nearly continuous > corrections or "touch-ups" on the student's > performance. The second method he described as being > akin to a swordsmith, who pulls the blade form the > fire gives it a good, hard smack or two and then > replaces it in the heat. > > In Lowry's opinion the second method was better > because it gave the student a couple specific, > concrete things to focus on. They didn't get lost in > a > sea of detail and could actually spend time training > and see the results of taking their instruction to > heart. > > Now, IMO, the first type of instruction DOES have a > place in MA, albeit a limited one. Perhaps in a > special seminar setting or when a student is taking > private instruction and is perhaps getting ready for > a > promotional test. They're trying to get all their > ducks in a row, so to speak. But on a normal basis? > I'd have to say no. Too much chance of overwhelming > the student and making them feel like 1) they'll > never > get this stuff down and 2) not giving them the > opportunity to research the techniques themselve so > they always come to rely on someone else instructing > them and failing to reach a certain maturity level. > > Taekwon, > > Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest