Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:01:52 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #148 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Dana's Wisdom (Charles Richards) 2. Charles' long winded response (Charles Richards) 3. Re: Korean for Zero (Lori L Brown) 4. Reply (Frank Clay) 5. Re: old hyung... (Christopher Spiller) 6. Korean for Zero... (Master Arce) 7. RE: Frank Clay on TKD (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 8. Re: One Year 1st Dan (Jonathan D. Payne) 9. Korean Composition (Ray Terry) 10. old hyung... (Michael Falba) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dana's Wisdom Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dana's Wisdom "He paid his dues and maintained loyalty to his Art, Kwan and instructor. He has also modified his training over time to bring it to a wider audience. And, he was the first American KKW Sahbumnim and 9th dan. So, whether you think he moved up the ranks faster than others, preaches his Christian beliefs excessively, or makes too many claims--he does own a business (Association) and he has earned them. There are many instructor's who do promote themselves modestly (paradox?)." Dear Dana, Thank you for this wise summary. I personally have nothing for or against Master Sell and as such I think he "counts" for all the things you state in an unbiased manner. Personally, I dont mix my spirituality with my martial arts, but I trust everyone on this list (and Master Sell) is doing what works for them, ne? This statement sums it up for me on the factual side and creates a lot of respect from me...."he was the first American KKW Sahbumnim and 9th dan." In my mind that puts him in a league with Dale Drulliard and Moses Powell :-) I will add that info to my history blurbs for Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do, which became Taekwondo under the KKW. Not to be confused with the brave souls that remained Chung Do Kwan and not KKW, but took on the Taekwondo "art name" to be identified as seperate from the Moo Duk Kwan, both Hwang's version and the taekwondo version. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:00:31 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Charles' long winded response Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank Clay's post in " " and Charles Response after the MC = "First off, Hwang Kee, nor any TSD practitioner counts in this discussion. Tang Soo Do is a completely separate entity from Taekwondo. That nullifies any debate regarding them and Kukkiwon, since Kukkiwon exists to promote TKD." MC = Hmm, kinda like siamese twins that are divided long after birth, both claiming unique identities with a clear shared root Thanks for that info on the KKW's mission as I thought the KKW existed as the international governing body for olympic style taekwondo, ie olympic style sparring and compulsary poomse (now Taekyuk). ".....Hee Il Cho IS Kukkiwon certified, so that rules him out." MC = Hmm, I don't think he's been publicizing that since 1980 when he founded AIMAA. In fact the blurb in his book about AIMAA goes on to say he will "honor" WTF rank if you choose to join AIMAA . But yes not to miss your point of fact he has a KKW cert, and since he hasn't been publishing that fact I didn't know that, so again thanks for helping me update my "history of korean martial arts." "I personally do not like the ATA, nor do I like them calling themselves TKD. I think they should call themselves something else. It becomes painfully clear when you copyright forms that the intent is not to make good martial artists, but to propagate "Take Your Do". Not to mention, and this may have changed, their process for investigating instructors needs a little revising considering the highly publicized cases of child sexual abuse, notably here in FL. That resulted in a conviction, and was a few years back, so things may have changed. As a father however, I will NEVER let my child so much as visit an ATA school." MC = Don't know any ATA players that well so I can't say. Yes they have copyrights, but so do Hwa Rang Do (cirricula) and Hwang Kee (the name Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan). FWIW, ten years in the WTSDA, I never heard Shin, Jae Chul utter the words Moo Duk Kwan . OK if we want to site "one bad apple," almost every organization on this list better put some plywood boards over the glass house cause the stones are gonna leave on melluva hess.... "Now as a Native American, we do use the word tribe, but not in the sense of the way it is commonly used. I am half native American with my mother being of the Eastern Tribe (Band) of the Cherokee Nation. According to our custom, you are whatever your mother is, and since my mother is full blooded native, I am regarded as a Cherokee. It is a matriarchal society." MC = Many less informed than you use only the term "tribe" (usually preceeded by indian) implying they don't know or deny the sovereign powers of each Nation. Obviously, that is not you so sorry for the confusion. "Remember, my "don't count" comment is not representative of my views, but IS representative of many of the prevailing views in the art. If you have a question about my stand or something I say, ask. Don't assume. Anyone who has been around the sport for any length of time, is well aware that things I am saying are unfortunately true. Ignoring unpleasant truth or history makes neither go away." MC = In the interest of moving the list to a new thread, I will accept comments about what does and does not count without any further rebutal. I don't have any further questions. We are indeed blessed with our history, to either keep re-living in a karmic spiral or to learn from in an evolutionary spiral. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Lori L Brown" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Korean for Zero Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:15:52 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sirs: We just asked one of our friends from Korea..... the Korean word for zero is ...young. LB > Steve, > > You are in error. There must be a word for "zero" because without a zero there > are certain principles of mathematics and engineering which are impossible. > This is a mathematical fact, so that means there is some word that is used to > express the concept, even if it is borrowed from another culture. > > Frank --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:07:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Reply Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George, It is really very simple: Assume that we, primates evolved from life in the sea. Are we the same as that life? Are we the same as our nearest cousin? Are we the same as Neanderthal, or any of those that preceded us? Now granted it could be argued that we are an advancement upon previously existing species, and I am not trying to say one is better than another. That being said, having studied both (TKD Chung Do Kwan and TSD) I can say that they are different entities with a great deal of certainty. Surely, one (TKD) evolved from the other (TSD) but that does not make them the same. It makes them related. There is a big difference there. Now this is a general statement, and with any general statement one will find exceptions, so for simplicity let us consider the representative models of TSD to be the modern Moo Duk Kwan and the modern sport of Taekwondo. As Master Richard Chun himself attests, when he first saw the "new" Taekwondo, he was not prepared as the kicking had evolved into something new. Notice the keywords in that: evolved and something new. By definition, that means not the same. They are similar, but not like for like. Kyorugi does not exist in TSD in the same method as it does in TSD. Doboks are not the same, emphasis is not the same, goals and methods are not the same. So while they are similar, they are not like for like. Does that help sum up my position? Of course there will those who argue to the contrary and that is fine. Based on the models displayed, it is quite clear they are not the same, though there are schools which deviate from this model, making distinctions somewhat less clear. Those representatives could almost be, and most certainly are, deviations from this model. No model can include all possible variations, therefore we are left with the limited option of grouping and classifying according to a defined illustration. That is how I "think to get away with" saying they are completely different entities. The differences begin with the uniform, persist through training, names and methods, and conclude with political structure. Note: at no time am I giving any preference to one or the other, nor am I stating that any approach is better than another. I will only be so bold as to say that different approaches are more efficient for some than for others. Regards, Frank --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 05:47:07 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: old hyung... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 5 > From: "Davide Sorrentino" > > To: > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:25:46 +0100 > Subject: [The_Dojang] old hyung... > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Hi to all!!! > I want ask you if someone know something about this > hyung. > A) For I dan : > -Hwarang hyung (the same of tkd i.t.f.?) Yes, I believe this is he ITF tul Hwa-Rang. Gen. Choi mentions in his memoirs the fact that these patterns were in use in Korea during the early 60's. > C) For III dan : > -Ul ji hyung Ul-Ji is an ITF tul that is currently practiced by IV dans and tested on for V dan promotion. It's the "easy" pattern at this level (they take pity on you because you also have to do Yon-Gae and Moon-Moo ;-). Sorry I can't be of more help, but these are the only two patterns on your list that I'm familiar with. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:04:32 -0800 (PST) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean for Zero... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Steve, You are in error. There must be a word for "zero" because without a zero there are certain principles of mathematics and engineering which are impossible. This is a mathematical fact, so that means there is some word that is used to express the concept, even if it is borrowed from another culture. Frank Frank, I gave credit to the site from where the info came. It says that Yong or Gong would be the Koren word for Zero. I thought that was in my post???? Steve --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Frank Clay on TKD Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:10:05 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Was TKD formed from TSD? I think may Kwans existed at the same time as Moo Duk Kwan. I always thought of TKD coming from Shotokan... :) Jason -----Original Message----- From: George Peters [mailto:kyosag@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 11:36 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Frank Clay on TKD Good Sir, Since TKD was formed from TSD how do you think to get away with saying they are "completely different entities"? Seperate when viewing some of the more "evolving schools",kissing cousins when one visits a traditional TKD school. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jonathan D. Payne" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:10:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One Year 1st Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My opinion is that for all practical purposes, how much time is allotted for rank doesn't matter. My journey through Taekwondo, Hapkido, Tukong, whatever else is my journey. It is not a race. If you learn the required material for 1st Dan in a year or less, more power to you. If it takes you 12 years to get your black belt congratulations. I use to brag about how fast I could get from point A to point B (like I drove to Houston in under an hour) now I stop and look at the blue bonnets. Same journey, different mind set. Respectfully, Jon David Payne --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:05:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Composition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Korean Composition by Pong Ja Paik, Ji Young Kwak, and Ji Hyoun Choi, 2002. Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press. 334 pages. (ISBN 0-8248-2477-6) Reviewed by Gerard Krzic Ohio University krzic@ohio.edu Korean Composition, by Pong Ja Paik, Ji Young Kwak, and Ji Hyoun Choi, is a welcome addition to the growing collection of Korean as a Second Language (KSL) textbooks. The text is advertised as the "first book in English for students of Korean language aimed not only at enhancing their writing skills and overall linguistic competence, but also at organizing and developing their ideas and thoughts with grammatically, stylistically, and culturally correct expressions." The authors are true to their intent: Korean Composition is a fine textbook designed to develop the writing skills of KSL learners across a variety of genres. The text was written under the auspices of the Korean Language and Education Center (KLEAR) as part of the KLEAR textbook series. Prior to publication, the text was field-tested in KSL classes at the University of Hawaii, and based on student feedback, was revised to include English translations of the model writings and table of contents. Members of KLEAR further refined the chapters by adding new grammatical patterns and a Korean-English glossary. Korean Composition is intended for college-level students who have completed at least beginning and intermediate levels of Korean or approximately five hundred hours of instruction. For students who are using the KLEAR Integrated Korean series, this text is recommended for those who have completed Advanced Intermediate 2. The text is based on the "Guided Writing" method of instruction, a methodology that provides students with ample structure to develop and organize their ideas in a coherent, culturally appropriate manner. The text is divided into two sections: "Essential Composition" (gibon jangmun)[1] and "Advanced Composition" (gogeup jangmun). The five chapters in the Essential Composition section help students learn to write essays, diaries, letters, documents (including memoranda, invitations, cards and envelopes, and resumes), and expository writing about topics such as recreation, hobbies, and customs. The advanced section consists of five chapters to help students write descriptive compositions (impressions of literature, film and travel), poetry, newspaper articles, academic writing, and summaries. Two other sections at the end of the text include "Steps of Composition" and "Styles of Writing" (jangmunui gwajeong and pyohyeon bangbeop). Appendices include English translations of the model texts. In total, there are forty units in the book. The general structure of each unit in the chapters includes the following format. First, students are provided with a brief introduction on "How To Write" the specific genre (e.g., diaries, letters, articles, etc.). Then, each unit begins with a list of approximately forty words, phrases, and idiomatic expressions to help students generate vocabulary and ideas to incorporate in their written work. The next two sections include useful grammar patterns and a practice component with guided question prompts, pictures, graphs, and paragraph completion exercises. The above exercises are arranged in "ascending order of difficulty." The introductory exercises are designed to prepare the students for their writing task through a dialogue with the instructor. The grammatical suggestions and question prompts are provided to help students draft their paragraphs. The final step is for students to compose a complete creative piece of writing. The content of the text is exemplified in Chapter One, Unit Four titled "Misunderstanding." At the beginning of the chapter, the students learn that the rhetorical pattern of written Korean follows a structure termed "kiseungjeongyeol" (i.e., introduce an issue, elaborate it, turn it in a decisive direction, offer a conclusion)[2]. Then, in the unit vocabulary, the learner is introduced to approximately forty lexical items such as "pyeonggyeon" (bias), "geobukhada" (to be awkward), and "chunggo" (advice). Three sample grammatical structures (i.e., must: " - dorok hada"; pretended: -neun/(eu)n cheokhada" ; almost: "-(eu)l bbeonhada") with examples follow. This grammatical preparation is followed by a "practice" section with a series of questions in Korean to guide the writer: 1) Have you ever misunderstood another person? 2) Why did you misunderstand that person? 3) How did you resolve that misunderstanding? Etc. Based on this practice, students begin their first writing task: narrating a personal experience involving a misunderstanding. The next writing task is an analysis of a dialogue illustrating a cultural misunderstanding between a Korean and an international student who has been asked too many personal questions in a Korean social setting. Finally, the teacher can exploit either a series of pictures depicting a cultural scene on a bus in Korea or a model composition to elicit an essay about cross-cultural misunderstandings. As with all texts for the second language classrooms, Korean Composition may require modifications by the instructor to meet the needs and interests of specific learners. For example, some instructors might find the text overly ambitious with too many genres of written work, too repetitive in format, and too bland in graphic presentation. However, these elements can be easily adjusted by selecting the appropriate units for the students, designing additional in-class activities (e.g., dicto-comp: composition by dictation) and supplementing with other material (e.g., from the internet, colorful brochures) to retain the interests of the young adult learners. Unquestionably, the authors of Korean Composition have filled a great shortcoming in the KSL literature by providing a useful, comprehensive text for improving students' Korean writing skills and awareness of Korean rhetorical patterns. The latter is perhaps the greatest strength of the text, as students will learn to develop a "schema" for writing in rhetorical styles that are culturally and socially appropriate for the Korean context rather than relying on mental models or translations from their native cultures and languages. In addition, the range of genres and topics allows students to engage in social, personal, literary, and academic writing tasks. Through the use of the guided writing approach, students are given suitable direction for completing structured writing tasks while at the same time gaining the confidence to engage in more creative work. In conclusion, Korean Composition is an excellent text that should in the library of every KSL teacher and in the hands of every KSL learner. [1] I've chosen here to use the new Korean government system for Romanization (except in the case of authors' names). [2] A similar structure for Chinese and Japanese written discourse is described in J. Hinds (1990), "Inductive, deductive, quasi-inductive: Expository writing in Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai" in U. Connor & A. M. Johns (Eds.), Coherence in writing: Research and pedagogical perspectives (pp. 87-110). Alexandria, VA: TESOL. Citation: Krzic, Gerard 2004 Korean Composition, by Pong Ja Paik, Ji Young Kwak, and Ji Hyoun Choi, (2002) Korean Studies Review 2004, no. 05 Electronic file: http://koreaweb.ws/ks/ksr/ksr04-05.htm --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Michael Falba" To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:09:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] old hyung... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ciao David: I am Ist Dan Tae Kwon Do (chayon ryu). In our Dojang we practice Chang Hon, palgwe, taegeuk, tekki, heian, bassai, plus other Shotokan/Shudokan advanced level forms as well as several Chinese forms. My teachers have no political affiliation with the ITF or WTF so hence we did not loose (or eliminate) any of the old hyung or any of the hyung for that matter. I agree, it is a great loss to loose much because of political affiliation. Pretty silly, but politics does have a way of screwing things up! At my current level I can perform "Dan kwon hyung". It's a Chinese Chu'an Fa two person form most likely introduced into Korean Martial Arts by GM Yoon, Byung In. I can help you with this however I only know the offensive side. Given this, it is a very nice form. I am very interested in the "old hyung" also, and intend to learn as much as I am able. Mike Falba 1st Dan - Chayon Ryu --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest