Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:49:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #149 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. North Austin Tae Kwon Do Kong Shin Bup Hapkido Seminar -- Seminar trailer at www.natkd.com/tkd_forms (Movie) (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 2. Austin Seminar (Wicker, H. Keith) 3. Do Ju Nim Ji Han Jae Seminar (pranab banik) 4. TSD Copyright (Frank Clay) 5. Quan Fa (Frank Clay) 6. RE: Dana's Wisdom (Dana Vaillancourt) 7. Frank Clay on TKD, TSD (George Peters) 8. re: Charles (Lasich, Mark D.) 9. Jason on TSD, TKD (George Peters) 10. North Austin TKD Seminar Videos posted on site. (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 11. Re: TSD Copyright (Ray Terry) 12. ATA (Ray Terry) 13. RE: TSD Copyright (Denise) 14. Spring Hapkido Seminar in Wisconsin (DPRYGA) 15. Re: re: Charles/ATA/Mr. Clay (Dante) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:37:14 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] North Austin Tae Kwon Do Kong Shin Bup Hapkido Seminar -- Seminar trailer at www.natkd.com/tkd_forms (Movie) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The North Austin Tae Kwon Do seminar is over and we had a great time with Grand Master Timmerman and all of the wonderful people who came and shared their knowledge. I'd like to thank all the masters, grand masters and black belts who came to the event to help out and teach sessions. In particular I'd like to thank the following instructors who taught sessions: Grand Master Rudy Timmerman, 8th Dan Kong Shin Bup Grand Master James McMurray, 8th Dan Hapkido Grand Master Richard Hodder, 8th Dan Taekwondo Sabunim Jay Davis, 4th Dan Tukong Moosul Busabunim Keith Wicker, 3rd Dan Taekwondo Additionally, I'd like to thank the other Masters who came to the seminar and helped: Chief Master Troy Trudeau, 7th Dan Tae Sool Master Don Kirsch, 5th Dan Hapkido Master Amos Hunter, 5th Dan Hapkido I've made the first of 3 trailers that I will release this week and next, showing some of the seminar fun. You can find the trailer as an Easter egg at www.natkd.com/tkd_forms. To see the movie, simply click on the letters "TKD Forms" on the top of the page and it will begin to play. I will also be releasing some clips of the Saturday night party, with such amazing techniques as Mr. Wicker imitating the energizer bunny during the cranium game! Last but not least, I'd like to truly thank everyone who came out to support us and just have fun! Regards, Jason Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Wicker, H. Keith" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:42:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Austin Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list members, I just wanted to report that my students and I had a great time at the Austin seminar with GM Rudy Timmerman this past weekend. I am comfortably sore and starting to get on my wife's nerves showing her all the techniques I learned!!! It was an honor to be able to spend so much time learning from and visiting with GM Timmerman. Master Jason Thomas did an excellent job organizing the seminar and was a great host (as usual)!!! I want to thank all the masters for all the techniques shared and the honor of allowing me to present for one of the time slots. All of the masters were very patient and helpful (and entertaining). We were able to play Friday night, all day Saturday, and Sunday morning. Master Thomas and his wonderful wife invited all participants into their home Saturday night for eats, drinks, gaming, and lots of martial art storytelling!! I also enjoyed meeting the many other participants this weekend and just hope I can remember all their names. If you have a chance to attend a seminar with GM Timmerman and/or a seminar hosted by Master Thomas, I highly recommend that you attend. Thanks, Keith Wicker Wicker's Korean Martial Arts, USKMAF League City, Texas --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "pranab banik" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:03:14 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Do Ju Nim Ji Han Jae Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi! Everybody, Back by popular demand Do Ju Nim Ji Han Jae will be conducting a 3 day seminar at Azad's Martial Arts Family Center starting April 16th - April 18th. Cost for the seminar is $300 for all 3 days. This seminar is worth attending if you are a Sin Moo enthusiast. To resereve your spot call 530-896-0777/ 892-2923 or fax 530-564-9428. You can also e-mail to master@azadsmartialarts.com . Space is limited. Have a great day everybody. Sincerly. Pranab Banik.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:36:22 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD Copyright Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles, I found out a couple of years ago the name Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is not copy written. The actual copyright has expired, which probably explains why so many are not using the term without fear. I think that if you carefully read what you and I are both saying, we share many views. My personal feeling is that politics should be left out of the equation and that the various kwans, and founders, should be judged on the merits of what they have done. TSD and TKD are both equal in their ability to touch lives and help others. To me that includes ITF TKD, and while I don't subscribe to the political views of some of its members, or even of the General, that should not make him a pariah. I suppose if I were Korean, and lived during the same period, maybe I would have a different view, but you are right. We should let such history go, or we are indeed karmically bound to it. The future, and subsequently what we can do, is what is important. I personally feel free to take any tool I have learned to help a student. Case in point: I also teach Taijiquan. I had an older gentleman come to me who had MS and was interested in working through some issues pertaining to it. I decided to give him an exercise call Ki Sau, a form of hard qigong. The Taijiquan helped him with his balance and walking and Ki Sau began working with his strength. THAT is the goal. What we can take from our art to help ourselves, and as teachers, others. The fact that Ki Sau is from both Shandong Black Tiger, and Hung Gar, is irrelevant. Make sense? Anyhooo... time to move on. Frank --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:38:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Quan Fa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike (et al.), Would you happen to know, or know someone who knows, how many of these older sets are used in Korean Mudo? I only know a couple and would surely enjoy learning a few more. I am finding that they help me with certain opportunities for development in my practice. Thanks in advance, Frank --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:44:19 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Dana's Wisdom Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Charles. I suppose I should further clarify that I'm not insulting those who have become citizens of our fine land who had received their KKW 9th dan. I was talking about someone born and raised here in the US. >This statement sums it up for me on the factual side and creates a lot >of respect from me...."he was the first American KKW Sahbumnim and 9th >dan." _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:54:34 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Frank Clay on TKD, TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: You stated they weren't related and I pointed out a very strong relationship. The more traditional one may be in TKD, the more this is evident. In fact, I have been in schools where it was difficult to discern ANY difference on the dojang floor. To me, THAT is where the art is, not an ego stroking managerial hierarchy or even in the name. So there we have it,"TKD", one genetic mutation regressed from perfection, but still related.(ha, ha this IS a small joke so don't spaz, my wife made me be kind, or I won't be allowed to play anymore) Respectfully, George(ducking the incomings already) Peters TANG SOO! _________________________________________________________________ All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:24:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Charles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Frank Clay wrote: >I personally do not like the ATA, nor do I like them calling >themselves TKD. I think they should call themselves something else. It >becomes painfully clear when you copyright forms that the intent is not >to make good martial artists, but to propagate "Take Your Do". Not to >mention, and this may have changed, their process for investigating >instructors needs a little revising considering the highly publicized >cases of child sexual abuse, notably here in FL. That resulted in a >conviction, and was a few years back, so things may have changed. As a >father however, I will NEVER let my child so much as visit an ATA >school. I am sorry your exposure to the ATA has been less than honorable. Although I am unfamiliar with this situation, my thoughts and prayers go out to those involved. As others mentioned, however, every organization can find "bad apples" if they would like. "Let any among you without sin cast the first stone." ...........appropriate sermon this past Sunday! But I guess with all the bad press the Catholic Church has gotten lately, there must be no good Catholics either? I have been an ATA instructor for many years - rather than get into an ATA vs. the World thread, suffice it to say that there are many differences in the ATA where Eternal Grandmaster's H.U. Lee's vision holds us to a higher standard than what exists elsewhere. This vision remains alive, even after his passing - with no fragmentation of the organization! "I shall live with perseverance in the spirit of (Songahm) Taekwondo. Having honor with others, integrity within myself, and self-control in my actions." In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:25:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jason on TSD, TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, The more I reseach subject matter(there isn't a whole lot of it on just what IS an "unadulterated never been influenced from outside sources pure from when man crept from the primordial ooze KMA"), the more I have to refer to people I know who were there personally to help sort out the relationships. Was TKD formed from MDK TSD ? Yes,it was and many TSD masters went with it. As to the roots of TSD, I practice with some VERY nationalistic people and so shall refrain from comment, joke,or otherwise, as I find it quite difficult to dodge ALL the rocks all the time. I will however, venture the thought that TSD and Shotokan DO appear to be VERY similar(I have only the books to refer to, I am not a Shotokan practictioner). As to WHERE TSD came from, I would take it very kindly if you would pass the word to my ultranationalistic cohorts that I am sitting next to the fire just like them, shaking my ratting chanting I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE. Hey, peer pressure DOES work doesn't it? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:47:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] North Austin TKD Seminar Videos posted on site. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There are three video trailers posted at www.natkd.com/events. If you click on the thumb nails it will play a short movie/music video. I highly recommend trailer number 3 as you can seem my "gently" placing my figures into Mr. Philip Hornsey's eyes (), during GM Timmerman's Band of Brothers evaluation. Regards, Jason P.S. Mr. Hornsey earned a lot of angst during the Seminar Party Cranium game, I've listed one of his posts to the NKMAA forum below for your edification: Philip Hornsey Posted: Mar 28 2004, 10:11 PM Report Post Quote Post Beginner User * Group: Members Posts: 16 Member No.: 24 Joined: 1-February 04 Lorne SBN, I unwisely led a movement among Cranium players that forces SJN to hum the William Tell Overture, and then, when he could not quite remember it, I "reminded" him of a tune that was *not* the William Tell Overture causing his team to lose a turn, and leading my team to precious victory. My error, in terms of the tune, was accidental, but given the outcome it led to some conjecture that it was intentional. Today, as I posed for a picture with SJN, he casually observed that my tapping was doing no good, and that his fingers would be staying in my eye sockets for a fairly protracted period of time. When Master Thomas attempted to explain to the no doubt horrified, but otherwise laughing crowd that SJN was not in fact sadistic, but that this was warranted, he corrected him indicating that indeed he *was* sadistic and was at peace with that. I will be bringing him to the airport tomorrow morning. It requires that I get up rather early and limp to the car, but it is a sacrifice that I am willing to make. Phil [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image002.gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image003.gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image004.gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image006.gif] --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TSD Copyright To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:36:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I found out a couple of years ago the name Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is not > copy written. The actual copyright has expired, which probably explains why so > many are not using the term without fear. Was Tang Soo Do copyrighted? I thought it was Soo Bahk Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Esp since TSD wasn't a name that Hwang Kee coined or was the first to use.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:51:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am sorry your exposure to the ATA has been less than honorable. > Although I am unfamiliar with this situation, my thoughts and prayers > go out to those involved. > > As others mentioned, however, every organization can find "bad apples" > if they would like. "Let any among you without sin cast the first stone." > ...........appropriate sermon this past Sunday! But I guess with all the bad > press the Catholic Church has gotten lately, there must be no good > Catholics either? > > I have been an ATA instructor for many years - rather than get into an > ATA vs. the World thread, suffice it to say that there are many differences > in the ATA where Eternal Grandmaster's H.U. Lee's vision holds us to a > higher standard than what exists elsewhere. This vision remains alive, even > after his passing - with no fragmentation of the organization! Well, I'm not so sure the Lee brothers had any higher standards than anyone else out there in the MA world. I know of situations where promises were made and not kept. I know of situations where instructors found it necessary to leave due to the pressure to keep the $$ flowing into and up the org. I could continue on, but... In short, these are only people with their many shortcomings. And it seems that as the organization grows so do the shortcomings. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Denise" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:56:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: TSD Copyright Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Was Tang Soo Do copyrighted? **No I thought it was Soo Bahk Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Esp since TSD wasn't a name that Hwang Kee coined or was the first to use.? **From the USSBDMDK Fed. Website: "The names The U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc., The U.S. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, Soo Bahk Do, Moo Duk Kwan . . . are trademarked and copyrighted. They may NOT be reproduced or used in any manner whatsoever without the expressed permission obtained from the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc. also known as the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Fderation Inc. (973) 467-3971 or (888) SOO- BAHK." Hope this helps- Denise --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:21:36 -0600 From: DPRYGA To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Spring Hapkido Seminar in Wisconsin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Spring Hapkido Seminar in Wisconsin We are pleased to announce the 6th Annual CWMAI Hapkido Clinic featuring Master JR West. In addition to a great day of training with Master West and his crew, we are also planning a Friday nite "instructors only" session, a program for youths Saturday morning, student, guest, and Instructor Demonstrations, and of course, a cookout Saturday afternoon (brats and cheese curds ;) Date: May 1st, 2004 Location: Mosinee, Wisconsin Hosts: Dave & Christy Pryga, Central WI Martial Arts Cost: $60.00 by April 15th - (Instructors are free with five registered students) Hotel: Amerihost Inn Mosinee - 715-693-9000 Feel free to contact me regarding any aspect of this seminar. Thanks......Dave Pryga www.cwmai.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:09:24 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Dante To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: Charles/ATA/Mr. Clay Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Lasich, With all due resect, I must disagree with your premise that ATA members/instructors are held to a higher standard, and nothing has changed since Eternal Grandmaster's (EGM) death. And please take this for what it's worth, along with my admission that I talked to Grandmaster Soon Ho face to face two days ago and informed him I would be resigning from the ATA. The standards for instructors have certainly gone down as the method of certification has become decentralized. Black Belts may now become certified and HQ has no knowledge of who they are. Instructors get certified within their region, and not at a central camp as when I certified (in 1985). 2nd and even 1st Degrees are becoming certified, what I call babies having babies in terms of time in the martial arts and their understanding of musul, muye and mudo. Since you can't teach what you don't know, but that doesn't keep someone from being certified, what is passed on continues to be watered down. As for fragmentation, there is so much fragmentation it is riidiculous. From uniforms to schools not teaching forms to students unless they join the Black Belt club (done with HQ permission) there is certainly fragmentation. The majority of instructors say that ATA has "minimums" to follow, but since they are "minimal", many have for years done what I have done, and added much to the minimum. I'll assume you know that EGM's vision is now directed by the Master's Council, and the Business Council, and Grandmaster Soon Ho has no real voice in ATA policy. To his credit in our 20 minute conversation, my impression was he didn't disagree with me, he just had to speak the party line. He said he completely understood my position, wished I would stay, but wished me well on my journey. I appreciate your dedication, and hope you continue to provide the kind of instruction that makes your school different from the McDojang so often discussed. Mr. Clay, Florida is a pit of poor ATA in terms of business practices, and I hope you understand or at least belive me when I say that there are excellent martial artists within the ATA, those who don't abuse kids and who have the best interests of teaching martial arts in mind. I don't think you can blame the organization for abusive instructors any more than you can blame public schools when a teacher abuses a child. Having spent two weeks in trial several years ago concerning an ATA instructor who was conviced of child abuse, by the time anyone at the dojang became suspicious, it was too late. Upon learning of it, the ATA took action immediately. With no prior history, little could have been done beforehand. As for teaching TKD, I know what I learned and what I teach, I won't debate the issue. Peace Dante James -----Original Message----- From: "Lasich, Mark D." Sent: Mar 29, 2004 6:24 AM To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Charles Mr. Frank Clay wrote: >I personally do not like the ATA, nor do I like them calling >themselves TKD. I think they should call themselves something else. It >becomes painfully clear when you copyright forms that the intent is not >to make good martial artists, but to propagate "Take Your Do". Not to >mention, and this may have changed, their process for investigating >instructors needs a little revising considering the highly publicized >cases of child sexual abuse, notably here in FL. That resulted in a >conviction, and was a few years back, so things may have changed. As a >father however, I will NEVER let my child so much as visit an ATA >school. I am sorry your exposure to the ATA has been less than honorable. Although I am unfamiliar with this situation, my thoughts and prayers go out to those involved. As others mentioned, however, every organization can find "bad apples" if they would like. "Let any among you without sin cast the first stone." ...........appropriate sermon this past Sunday! But I guess with all the bad press the Catholic Church has gotten lately, there must be no good Catholics either? I have been an ATA instructor for many years - rather than get into an ATA vs. the World thread, suffice it to say that there are many differences in the ATA where Eternal Grandmaster's H.U. Lee's vision holds us to a higher standard than what exists elsewhere. This vision remains alive, even after his passing - with no fragmentation of the organization! "I shall live with perseverance in the spirit of (Songahm) Taekwondo. Having honor with others, integrity within myself, and self-control in my actions." In the spirit, Mark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest