Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:11:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #150 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: TSD Copyright (Donald Pillow) 2. North Austin Hapkido Seminar (Lawren Hasten) 3. Newbie in the house (ShermandMel@aol.com) 4. Zero in Korean (Bert Edens) 5. GM Timmerman's 30th Anniversary (Dewitt, Garrett) 6. Misc (Frank Clay) 7. Craig Stovall vs. the ATA (Stovall, Craig) 8. RE: Re: One Year 1st Dan (Rick Clark) 9. RE: Fast (Rick Clark) 10. Re: ATA (Thomas Gordon) 11. Re: Fast (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Dingodog1@webtv.net (Donald Pillow) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:58:48 -0500 (EST) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TSD Copyright Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Interesting and inspiring. You have a very good attitude. You have the true "spirit" of a teacher, a nurturer. You help people and we never have too many people like you. Never change. Most of you guys do too! Back to the nether realms! --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:36:19 -0800 (PST) From: Lawren Hasten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] North Austin Hapkido Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I want to thank Master Thomas and GrandMaster Rudy Timmerman for the splendid Seminar this past weekend. I had a wonderful time and it seemed everyone else did as well. Master Thomas and his lovely wife, Kathy, were great hosts both during the sessions and for the after session get-togethers. I hope you get your voice back soon, Kathy. It was great seeing and practicing with old friends and meeting new ones. Look forward to seeing you all again at the next Hapkido Shindig. I understand the Austin Seminar will be an annual event and highly recommend for anyone who can possible get there next time to do so. There was a great deal of information and practice shared by such a high caliber of GrandMaster's, Master's and Instructors, it is not to be missed. I also want to congradulate Kat Kelly for a doing a great job on coordination of the demo at the Aeros (Hockey) Game in Houston. It turned out great. Lawren Hasten --__--__-- Message: 3 From: ShermandMel@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:59:11 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Newbie in the house Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dojang listees, I'm married to a man who is half Korean and was born in Seoul. Our son is 6 and is showing an interest in taking some form of martial arts classes. In light of his family heritage, I am most interested in exploring Korean martial arts. I have a lot of questions, though. But to spare you from all those questions just yet, I thought I'd start off with a "hello"! :-) Melanie in Pennsylvania --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: Bert Edens To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Zero in Korean Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Frank, I gave credit to the site from where the > info came. It says that Yong or Gong would be the > Koren word for Zero. I thought that was in my > post???? > Steve Greetings, all... As someone mentioned (sorry, don't have the post saved), the Koreans have two different sets of numbers, and they use them for different purposes. I think what that site was trying to say is there is not "native Korean" word for zero. They do have two words that are borrowed from Chinese, just like one of their numbering systems was. I have asked one of my Korean friends for a clarification of which zero is used in which case, but have not heard back from him yet... So they probably have had a word for zero, just not a native Korean word. Much of their language is borrowed from Chinese, so this is not necessarily a big surprise... <> - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:06:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Timmerman's 30th Anniversary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Jason Thomas I thank you for sharing so very much of this past weekends NKMAA Hapkido seminar, via the DoJang Digest. Unfortunately due to illness, I was forced to abandon my trip. Are any of the students in attendance at this past NKMAA seminar intending to be present April 3rd, 2004 at Grandmaster Timmerman's thirtieth anniversary in the Sault? Thank you Master DeWitt --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:28:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Misc Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, The US TSD MDK Association had copy written the name Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, in that form. That copyright is expired, and has not been renewed for several years, arguably because they changed to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. I can't give any more information on this topic, as that is as far as my looking into it went. George, I don't recall ever saying they were not related. I thought I had indicated that they were related and not the same. If you remember, Lee, Won Kuk first called his art Tang Soo Do Chung Do Kwan. It is now TaeKwonDo. I think you are confusing me with someone else, as my argument is that they are related and not the same. Seems about one or two issues ago, I wrote an explanation of some of the differences? Frank --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:35:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Craig Stovall vs. the ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I hope the thread title is taken with the "tongue in cheek" attitude in which it was written, <<>> Hooooooo boy, I may start a riot over this one, but I just can't let it go. Please take my comments as nothing more than the limited observations of a person that's been involved with TKD and the martial arts since about 1985. I don't profess to know it all, but I think that I'm a fairly good judge of technique, people, and organizations. In the past I've been very tight-lipped about the ATA, but for some reason I feel compelled to share. I don't know the specifics of H.U. Lee's "vision", but I do know enough about the ATA to say that it is in the BUSINESS of martial arts. Please don't take that as an insult...being a business man myself by profession and education I understand and appreciate the beauty of free market capitalism. Having said that, I think it's safe to say that the ATA markets their flavor of TKD (and their other programs) as vehicles for personal development carried out in environments that one could consider "family friendly". By personal development, I mean the promotion of health, fitness, confidence, and (at least to some degree) self-defense skills. By family friendly, I'm referring to the ATA's knack of creating training environments that attract a wide variety of training participants...it's not uncommon to see an ATA dojang full of children training right next to their middle-aged parents. Nothing wrong with that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the ATA has done a masterful job of marketing TKD as a fun activity that can be safely conducted by anyone willing to show up and put in the appropriate level of time and effort. I'm sure this is the "vision" you are referring to...the spreading of TKD as a means to "make the world a better place". Yep, I've heard that one a million times...your kids will have better grades, they'll have more confidence, you'll lose weight, you can relieve stress, learn to defend yourself, blah blah blah. Sounds good...on paper. The reason you see so many "quality problems" within this particular organization is because the "party line vision" is in direct contradiction to the "real vision". As Dr. Phil would say, "Let's get real.". As I sit here in rural Northeast Arkansas (think about that) there are probably no less than 10 or 20 ATA affiliated dojangs within an hour's driving distance from my home...maybe more, but I'm being conservative. I contrast this with the number of Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, Chinese Gung-Fu, and Judo schools...slim to none. Heck, even non-ATA TKD schools...slim to one. Now, I don't think there is anything ACCIDENTAL about this phenomenon. One would have to be obtuse beyond belief to even question the fact that franchise proliferation and expansion has been the number one objective of the ATA in the last 20 years. It's not like every community in America has gone out and recruited the ATA. The ATA is just like McDonald's and Wal-Mart...if there's a population center they want a location sitting in the middle of it. Point blank...that's how I see it. Now, that's fine and dandy if you've got ten thousand qualified ATA instructors sitting around doing nothing with their spare time, and willing to relocate to various locales in an effort to "spread the wealth" of ATA TKD. Unfortunately, those people don't exist, and so there was/is a need to create instructors. Even more unfortunate, is the fact that creating quality instructors is in direct contradiction to franchising. Franchising is all about exploiting territory before the next guy does...the faster you get there, the better off you are. In the rush to generate black belts (who may then opt to open a location, and thus support the "real vision"), you tend to cut corners and produce martial artists that lack sufficient technical training, knowledge, and seasoning. Now, some will interpret what I have just written as an indictment against the ATA in which I accuse them of being a money-grubbing corporation that is only interested in trading "something akin to TKD" for the hard-earned dollars of the consuming public. I don't think that's quite the case. I do think it's easy to look the other way when the money is rolling in, and of course there's that good old "out of sight, out of mind" phenomenon that we all are familiar with. I'm sure the ATA management would love nothing more than to have an organization full of the finest teachers and students that the world has ever seen in an attempt to carry out that "party line vision". Unfortunately, like the manager's of any other large business enterprise they are forced to steer things at a high-level. I'm sure they can quote backwards and forwards the numbers of locations in each state, and they're organizational enrollment goals for the next five years. It's a far different beast to make sure that the instructors in any given region are really able to perform up to the standards of "the vision", much less to make sure they are qualified to pass knowledge and skill on to the next generation. Mr. James' post really struck a chord with me, and I'm sorry that he's found it necessary to separate himself from an organization that he most likely has invested a lot of time, money, and energy into. I wish him the best in his endeavors, and hope he finds a new family to align himself with that more closely represents his personal vision. The part of his letter that really hit home was the comment about "you can't teach what you don't know". This is so VERY true. In corporate America, I've seen the proliferation of the "train the trainer" methodology of building knowledge into the organization and decentralizing the capacity to impart skills and knowledge in a very efficient and cost-effective manner. This can work very well when you're talking about internal practice audits, spreadsheet skills, burger flipping, or how to "lock-out/tag-out" a particular piece of machinery. I'm afraid this method SUCKS when it comes to training competent martial artists, and is one that would closely approximate the culture seen in a good many ATA dojangs. Are there good ATA schools and instructors? Sure...absolutely. Per my personal experience, this is not indicative of the majority, and this is certainly true of the wave of schools that we've seen proliferate in the past 10 years. In some corners, it's just plain sad. But then again, I don't get to be the grand arbiter of what constitutes "real TKD" much less "real martial arts". I can only echo the comment by Mr. Clay...I wish you guys would call it something else. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: One Year 1st Dan Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jonathan, > From: Jonathan D. Payne [mailto:payne1224@gt.rr.com] > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One Year 1st Dan > > My opinion is that for all practical purposes, how much time is allotted > for > rank doesn't matter. My journey through Taekwondo, Hapkido, Tukong, > whatever else is my journey. It is not a race. If you learn the required > material for 1st Dan in a year or less, more power to you. If it takes > you > 12 years to get your black belt congratulations. I use to brag about how > fast I could get from point A to point B (like I drove to Houston in under > an hour) now I stop and look at the blue bonnets. Same journey, different > mind set. > > Respectfully, > Jon David Payne I don't think you might be missing a point here. From my experience there is a difference in skill, ability, and knowledge in a person who gets to 1st dan in one year vs. a person who gets to 1st dan in 3 years. The question becomes one of what are the standards for a 1st dan and do they vary from country to country? Do they vary from association to association, club to club, or individual to individual? Rick Clark "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") -Gen. Joseph Stilwell www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Fast Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:18:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > > > A year for a black belt? Sounds a little quick! > > Yep, very fast... outside of Korea. In Korea, not too uncommon, or so > I understand. But then they are in the dojang about twice as often per > week as is common in the US. In my experience while in Korea it was that someone could do 2 or 3 days a week with an hour of training and end up with a 1st dan in 12 months. I you would stay on for another year you would make 2nd dan with no problem. So you could go from nothing to 2nd dan in 2 years. To be cynical about it - it gave the instructors the opportunity to get a black belt testing fee, and make a little extra cash. Tae Kwon Do instructors in Korea were not seen as a high status profession, nor did they make a lot of money. When I was there Korea was a rather poor country and they could make OK money from the martial arts on military bases. BUT what they (instructors) really wanted was to get some student to sponsor them to the US so they could teach TKD and make a lot more money than they could in Korea. Of course I can't speak for all Korean instructors, nor can I speak to all times or bases. BUT - that was my experience and I have not seen much to dissuade me from this opinion. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:59:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ATA From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is true that one bad apple can spoil the bunch. However, when it comes to ATA, it’s more like a few good apples and a big mess of bad ones. First off, I will qualify myself as not some malcontent but someone that can speak with a little authority. I was in ATA for 10 years. A certified instructor, third degree black belt, and school owner in their system. The money problems and poor instruction absolutely plague the ATA. Chief Master Bill Clark had one of his MASS salespeople call and tell me about their “programs.” Black Belt Club is $3000, Master’s Club is $5000, and Leadership program is $7000. Testings, uniforms, sparring gear, and tournaments were extra and not included in the $3000/5000/7000 program. She literally bragged about how they signed a six year old up on the Leadership Program. I was disgusted they would sell that to a child and his parents were dumb enough to buy into it. Here comes the kicker, when I asked her how long she had been in martial arts, she informed me that she wasn’t. Now ATA is looking real hard at XMA. As if most instructors are capable of teaching XMA. HA! I know I'm not qualified! It’s all about the money. $450 instructor camp now costs closer to $1800 (plus suit) with little checks and balances in place. At one time, they were offering to sell a franchise for $20,000. That’s crazy money just to open a martial art school. I have been told by a few black belts (one fairly high ranking) that the state of Texas is “owned” by one very high ranking ATA black belt. If I remember correctly, one man spoke of $100,000 to “buy” territory plus he’d have to give up all testing fees. Fundamentally, many ATA students are lacking in the basics of technique. I’ve seen so many come through that simply could not follow the mechanics of a side kick. Many times they would chamber like a side kick, extend like a round kick, and let their foot hang like a dead fish hanging off the end. Jokingly, I call that a “flutter kick.” Most of them did not do a correct pivot on the supporting foot. Now, in fairness, this is representative of my area and may not be representative in other areas. I don’t want to be overly critical of ATA because I’ve met some very, very fine martial artist from ATA. My former instructor is nothing short of magnificent. He started in the ATA back in the late 70’s or early 80’s. More importantly, his students have solid basics. What seems to be happening is that ATA is losing some of their more qualified instructors. If you haven’t already gone, I encourage the ATA folks to make it out to Jackson this fall. I took the hard step to leave ATA and felt like Mel Gibson towards the end of Braveheart when he screamed “freedom.” And before any rhetoric about "casting the first stone" comes my way. Calling em as I see em has nothing to do with casting stones. I’m always interested in hearing people use this scripture. In the Bible, Jesus is quoted as saying this basically as a third person to the “educated” men trying to frame him and condemn a woman who was adulterous (perhaps a prostitute). When He asked this question, the accusers left because of their own coconscious. He told her to leave and stop sinning. Such an interesting analogy. Based on that, ATA needs to change the errors of their ways (admittedly, as we all do). The tidbit that she may have been a prostitute is only more fitting to this discussion considering that ATA has some very whorish ways. FWIW Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Fast To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:45:11 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > A year for a black belt? Sounds a little quick! > > > > Yep, very fast... outside of Korea. In Korea, not too uncommon, or so > > I understand. But then they are in the dojang about twice as often per > > week as is common in the US. > > In my experience while in Korea it was that someone could do 2 or 3 days a > week with an hour of training and end up with a 1st dan in 12 months. I you > would stay on for another year you would make 2nd dan with no problem. So > you could go from nothing to 2nd dan in 2 years. Yep. But it is fairly rare for a person to only train 2 or 3 days a week in Korea, as I understand it. I have not been there for a extended stay... They seem to expect more of a five to six day a week schedule, seven if there is a demo scheduled on the off day. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest