Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:19:09 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #152 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: TSD Copyright (Ray Terry) 2. Denise on SBD,TSD (George Peters) 3. RE: Re: One Year 1st Dan (Jonathan D. Payne) 4. RE: Blackbelts in One Year (Kip McCormick) 5. good and bad organizations (J R Hilland) 6. Re: Eternal Grandmaster (Christopher Spiller) 7. Re:Eternal..?? (Lasich, Mark D.) 8. RE: ATA (Thomas Gordon) 9. Martial Arts 101? (ShermandMel@aol.com) 10. The Sins of the ATA (Burdick, Dakin R) 11. Steve (Frank Clay) 12. Re:Eternal..?? (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: TSD Copyright To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:21:33 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Was Tang Soo Do copyrighted? > > **No > > I thought it was Soo Bahk Do and Moo Duk Kwan. > Esp since TSD wasn't a name that Hwang Kee coined or was the first to use.? > > **From the USSBDMDK Fed. Website: > "The names > The U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc., > The U.S. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, > Soo Bahk Do, > Moo Duk Kwan > . . . are trademarked and copyrighted. Nothing like going right to the source... :) Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:23:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Denise on SBD,TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Maam: Thank you so much for something factual and totally devoid of hear-say and conjecture concerning TSD. It was quite refreshing. Tang Soo! George _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar – FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jonathan D. Payne" To: "the_dojang" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: One Year 1st Dan Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:32:58 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>From my experience there is a difference in skill, ability, and knowledge in a person who gets to 1st dan in one year vs. a person who gets to 1st dan in 3 years. >> That hasn't been my experience, I think you either have fighting skills, or you don't. Maybe it's just a "combat mind-set". I might be tooting my own horn, but I was fighting these "3" year black belts when I was 14 (I'm now 34). After training for one year I routinely out fought 99% of them. It really didn't seem to matter who their instructor was or what style they studied. I really don't think I'm that special or gifted, so I would hope some other list members have had similar experiences. I've played at Taekwondo, Kajukembo,Shorin-Ryu, Combat Hapkido, and Tukong Moosul. I've seen real good one year 1st Dans and 13 year 3rd Dans who were awful. I still don't think time is the issue. My 1st and best Master is GM Choi John Jung from Lake Charles LA he had good students and some not so good. In closing the only standard's that matter are between you and your Sabum. Jon David Payne --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blackbelts in One Year Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:08:23 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi gang. I've posted before here on the DD about what I've seen in Korea with respect to the one year black belt. For those who don't know me, I'm a US soldier stationed in Seoul and have spent a large chunk of my 23 years in the military either living in Korea or training over here, much of it in hapkido and taekwondo. I've been doing Korean Martial Arts since 1983. Please remember that these are just my observations based on eyes on target -- I haven't done formal research in this and I mean to offend no one. I think the crux of the matter is how we as westerners view what the black belt represents vice what the Korean instructors here on the peninsula view as the standard. I have always thought a black belt practitioner is one who has a solid mastery of the basics. To me, getting your first dan is like graduating college then going to graduate school, where you refine and build on a strong foundation. However, here in Korea, I have not seen a mastery of the basics, just knowledge of the basics when it comes to 1st dans,whether it's taekwondo or hapkido. Instead of a college graduation, it's like graduating from elementary school to junior high school. Go to the Kukkiwon and watch a 1st dan test, and you won't see too many experienced kickers at that level, or even up to 3d dan. However, you watch the 4th, 5th dan tests and those guys are good. Hapkido varies from school to school, but overall, I've seen time and time again taekwondo and hapkido 1st dans here with simple knowledge of techniques and fighting abilities, nothing more. Many Korean instructors who live near military bases figured out years ago that most soldiers are over here for one year. In order to get business, many of them -- not all of them -- decided to put together one year black belt programs in taekwondo and hapkido. Ray Terry was spot-on correct when he said in his post that it used to be that you'd have to train 5-6 days/week to do the blackbelt in a year. That's not true any more from the schools I've seen. Over the years what I've seen change is the lowering of standards for awarding a blackbelt to a student in one year. Many military students here train only 2 days per week and still get the blackbelt in a year. Off post I've seen folks training 3-4 days per week and getting their black belts in a year. However, I've also seen that same blackbelt 4 years later in the same school as an improved, hot 3d dan who is good at his or her art -- that is if he or she sticks with the martial arts after black belt and stays with a good instructor. The whole point is this: The instructors here seem to raise the standards at the black belt level. The black belt in a year/lowering of standards I think is not only true to those instructors who cater to the US soldiers -- Off post taekwondo schools are usually filled with kids, and that's where the majority of business comes from. It's rare to find adults in a taekwondo school on the economy. (Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer kicks the crap out of the little kids, then gets beaten up by those same kids in the alley after class). The hapkido schools seem to be filled with teenagers and younger adults. The kids who do well continue to train through their teen years and those who become good in their late teens continue training and training hard. That's where the masters pool comes from. Many of those kids get to go to martial arts schools such as Yong In University, then they go out and teach. My experience in hapkido schools has varied both on and off base. Some are brutal and teach solid techniques, some don't. Some treat foreigners differently, some don't. Some make you work for your blackbelt and hold the standard high, some don't. I'd like to hear from some of the martial artists who live over here or who have taught over here while stationed/living on the Peninsula to see if my observations are isolated. My bottom line is this: I try to concern myself with living up to my instructor's high standards, trying to do my best and continue learning while ensuring my students do the same in all aspects of martial arts. If I worried about how fast folks are getting their first dans over here, I would have had an ulcer years ago. All I know is that after 21 years of martial arts I feel more like a beginner today than I did in 1983. Cheers. Kip LTC Kip McCormick, US Army Warrior Hapkido USKMAF Seoul, Korea >From: "Rick Clark" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Fast >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:18:22 -0500 > > > From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > > > > > A year for a black belt? Sounds a little quick! > > > > Yep, very fast... outside of Korea. In Korea, not too uncommon, or so > > I understand. But then they are in the dojang about twice as often per > > week as is common in the US. > >In my experience while in Korea it was that someone could do 2 or 3 days a >week with an hour of training and end up with a 1st dan in 12 months. I >you >would stay on for another year you would make 2nd dan with no problem. So >you could go from nothing to 2nd dan in 2 years. > >To be cynical about it - it gave the instructors the opportunity to get a >black belt testing fee, and make a little extra cash. Tae Kwon Do >instructors in Korea were not seen as a high status profession, nor did >they >make a lot of money. When I was there Korea was a rather poor country and >they could make OK money from the martial arts on military bases. BUT what >they (instructors) really wanted was to get some student to sponsor them to >the US so they could teach TKD and make a lot more money than they could in >Korea. > >Of course I can't speak for all Korean instructors, nor can I speak to all >times or bases. BUT - that was my experience and I have not seen much to >dissuade me from this opinion. > > > > Ray Terry > > rterry@idiom.com > >Rick Clark >www.ao-denkou-kai.org >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:37:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] good and bad organizations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have watched this debate over the songahm taekwondo vs. kukki-taekwondo vs. tangsoodo vs. moodukkwan taekwondo, vs. ITF-taekwondo, etc. Yet, they are obviously variations of the same theme. Apples come in different colors but they are all still called apples. In my 30 years as a student of the Korean martial arts, I never once had a teacher who said negative things about another style, most did not care about history or certification, just practice. I personally know people in all these styles and organizations above who are creditable and others who are not. I started out in the early 70's in ITF under one of General Choi's students. So did my wife 10 years later under another one of his students, and when she met the general she was highly impressed with his technique. She did not care about his history but she saw his technique. I am a fan of the old ITF style and others, as I also hold some Kukkiwon rank hidden in a file cabinet. Now the ITF has serious problems. Maybe they can work it out, maybe not. But they have made their mark in history. MANY organizations these days have belt jumpers (those who skip dan ranking), or who are promoted before proper time in rank. Some organizations just think of themselves as a franchise and others find dignity and honor in promoting their art with no financial gain or any hidden agenda. Belt mills, McDojangs, and even some borderline cultist styles are common place these days, regardless of the affiliation or style. Yet, there are also many traditional organizations out there and senior members of the mudo community that will go out of their way to help you with out concerns for financial gains or political affiliation. My dear friend, Master Rudy Timmerman is a fine example of this and a true gentlemen. My good friend and teacher, Master J. R. West still only charges $65 for his seminars even though the going rate is going out of control. It does not matter who started the organization or what they are representing as long as they are providing a value added service to the martial arts community and to their art. If they are not, I would simply call them a business and not a martial arts organization. I am not a taekwondoin, I am a hapkido player, but we also see the 'my style can beat up your style' of arguments in hapkido, along with the other problems. An organization itself can easily forget its purpose of spreading the joy of their art and get caught up in numbers and money game instead. I have watched Dr. Kimm do his thing over the years, not talking about whose style is better or whose. The man does not talk like that. Instead he promotes the art, and many others for that matter. He is a true scholar and practitioner of the Korean martial arts and I think we should all try to learn by that example. Just my opinion. Jere R. Hilland www.HapidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:30:34 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Eternal Grandmaster Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>> in the ATA where Eternal Grandmaster's H.U. Lee's vision holds us to a Eternal Grandmaster..???? Wow, I gotta add this one to my list of crappy titles. There is actually a human being out there who lets people call him Eternal Grandmaster? Where does this end? -- mvg. Klaas Barends<< I don't know if he *let's* them call him that. GM H. U. Lee died a couple of years ago, so... Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:52:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Eternal..?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Klaas Barends writes: >There is actually a human being out there who lets people call him >Eternal Grandmaster? >Where does this end? In this case, this IS the end, literally. Within the ATA, no living human being can promote above 9th degree, Grandmaster - symbolic of being a single digit number, and the farthest a single person can go on their own, There is only ever one 9th degree at a time! Eternal Grandmaster H.U. Lee was granted this title after his passing in 2000. It was awarded to him by his peers across organizations (I forget all the players, there was a list in TKDT at the time, but there were at least 6, none in the ATA). I believe it is a deserving title, and reflects that his vision and inspiration remain among us, even though he does not. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ATA Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:51:27 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Clark, "It was something to the effect if you were able to test your students you would get 50% of the test fee and then if you were under 5th dan (as I remember) you would send 25% to the ATA headquarters and 25% to your 5th dan instructor. If your instructor would drop out of the ATA then you would send the full 50% to ATA headquarters." I never saw anything like that. If I remember correctly, I paid about $6-10 to ATA for each student that tested. The fee went up as the rank did. It wasn't unreasonable. They had minimum and maximum fees I could charge such as $35 for color belts. None of that bothered me. They have overhead just like I do. Sending them 5% of my testing fees wasn't such a bad deal when you considered the support they gave. What bothered me was the push for expensive programs...among other things. "Like I said my memory is a bit vague but it did seem rather like a pyramid scheme at the time. I wonder if they still do the same thing or something similar?" Hum, well, pyramid schemes are against the law. But, if it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and looks like a duck....good chance it's a duck. :) ATA handbook states: Seniority fees have a long and honored position in the martial arts. The ATA and STF initiated an 'institutional' seniority fee program soon after 1980. This put into writing a concept which is nearly as old as Oriental martial arts. The seniority fees came out of my testing fees to ATA. I never sent a check to my instructor. I believe it was a $1 per student testing. I'm not sure though. "Anyway - if this guy had a lot of the Texas schools and did give up the test fees the amount of money he gave up I would guess would be more than the $100,000 he may have paid for the 'territory'. Rather a good scheme for someone I would think." This is such a bad subject. I don't have time to give it a good reply. That's just unbridled greed on this person's part. There a few very high ranking ATA people that try to compete with the oldest profession. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ShermandMel@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:00:56 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I hope a few newbie questions are welcome here, since it seems that most of the discussion is among instructors. An instructor I spoke with recently said his policy is to start children with basics of Tae Kwon Do and then, when he deems them ready, teach them Hapkido. My son is 6, and he said the risk of injury is too great. Is this common practice? Do Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido share a common foundation? Another question I'd like to ask is: How common is yelling in the dojang? My son has some auditory processing issues, and loud noises are sometimes painful for him to hear. Melanie --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:03:21 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] The Sins of the ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig Stovall writes: "I do know enough about the ATA to say that it is in the BUSINESS of martial arts. .... I'm afraid this method SUCKS when it comes to training competent martial artists, and is one that would closely approximate the culture seen in a good many ATA dojangs." As well as a lot of other good stuff about the business practices of the ATA and how they shape the practitioners of the ATA. Thomas Gordon also put in his two cents and thanks to both of you guys. Your responses were pretty much dead on, so I didn't have to take the same amount of time to write up a reply! :) Let me just add two things. First, the practices of the ATA are right in line with the movement to "professionalize" the martial arts. When I meet TKD guys from the UK, they are often a lot like the ATA people. Very professional, well-trained, good kickers, and don't know spit about fighting. And yes, there are good fighters in the UK -- the Goju-ryu guys always seem very tough. The second thing I wanted to add about the ATA is that I do like their Song-am forms. GM Lee did a nice job with those diamond-shape forms, and even coordinated high kicking into them. It's not self-defense, but it is elegant. So when Craig says: "I can only echo the comment by Mr. Clay...I wish you guys would call it something else." My reply would be that I think the ATA looks a lot like other TKD schools. A lot of high kicks, a lot of aerobics, not much self-defense training. That's why we have hapkido, right? :) Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:40:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Steve Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There is no need to make redundant posts. Yes you did give credit; however, you also posted it. I simply forgot that someone else wrote it. Relax a tad. Regardless of who wrote it, it is still in error. The orient has produced some fine engineers and scientists, which would not have been possible without complete mathematical systems. We have established this, established them term (or likely candidate), and there is no need to further query this. Regards, Frank --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:43:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Eternal..?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Dude, the man is deceased. It's a title bestowed upon him by his students. Yes, I also think it's a bit strange (I'm not into titles), but it's not like he's aware of it. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest