Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:23:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #154 - 18 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Copyrighted SBD, TSD, MDK (Denise) 2. copyright info (Ray Terry) 3. Warning (Ray Terry) 4. Wordmark, Trademark, Copyright (Ray Terry) 5. re: ATA (Lasich, Mark D.) 6. RE: Re: One Year 1st Dan (Jonathan D. Payne) 7. Re: Standards (Jonathan D. Payne) 8. Re: One Year 1st Dan (Jonathan D. Payne) 9. RE: noisy Martial Arts (Denise) 10. Re: Martial Arts 101 (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Martial Arts 101? (Ray Terry) 12. Re: GM Timmerman's Comment (Dewitt, Garrett) 13. Re: Martial Arts 101 (jeffrey kiral) 14. Tittle and respect (Charles Richards) 15. Re: Martial Arts 101 (Ray Terry) 16. North vs. South Korea (Frank Leonard) 17. Re: Martial Arts 101 (jeffrey kiral) 18. RE: Re: One Year 1st Dan (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Denise" To: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:25:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Copyrighted SBD, TSD, MDK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A "you're most welcome" to Ray and George and anyone else who might have had a question answered by my post about the copyrights. >From what I've witnessed, the "Moo Duk Kwan" one stirs up the most emotional responses and concerns with some TSD and TKD practitioners. You won't find (at least I haven't) any of the more recent "separators" from "the Fed." using the "Moo Duk Kwan" moniker, as there is a clearer understanding with those (us) folk of the "ownership" of that name. Apparently, things weren't so "black and white" a longer time ago. NO criticism intended or implied - please - just a sharing of my own experience and observations. Denise --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:26:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] copyright info Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fwiw... These are items that by their very nature are not eligible for copyright protection. These items include: Ideas Facts Titles Names Short phrases Blank forms --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:28:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Warning Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Got an e-mail from "contact@sinmu.com" with the message "here is my phone > number." >From what I can tell via 'whois' there is no sinmu.com domain name. I think the only person I've noticed use that spelling is you... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:40:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Wordmark, Trademark, Copyright Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 1. Registration Number: VAu-592-915 > Title: Tang Soo Do Moo Do Kwan Association, Inc. > Description: Art original. > ... > ... > Word Mark TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN > Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 200. US 200. G & S: TO INDICATE > MEMBERSHIP IN THE APPLICANT ORGANIZATION WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO FOSTER,ENCOURAGE > AND REGULATE THE STUDY, PRACTICE AND PUBLIC RECOGNITION OF THE KOREAN MARTIAL > ART. FIRST USE: 19760615. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19760615 > Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY Aren't the above art or logo related? Interesting to look back thru the first and second printing of Hwang Kee's Volume 1 book. In the second printing (1995) Soo Bahk Do and Moo Duk Kwan are shown as Trademarked. But it specifies that Tang Soo Do is a "generic term". No mention of either in the first printing (1978). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:04:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As mentioned, I did not want to start an ATA vs. the World thread, nor do I want to participate in one. So, while I may feel the urge, I will choose to lurk, comfortable with my training and the quality people I am involved with within the ATA. Thank you to Grandmaster Timmerman for your words of wisdom: >In the end, we must strive to make each student the best s/he can be, >but this does not mean they will all look like model martial artists. >In my school, looks are not nearly as important as is how they act. >Humility, respect, eagerness to share knowledge, continuously trying to >improve themselves, and a host of other attributes mean a lot more to >me than a few fancy kicks or techniques. >Sincerely, >Rudy Well put. In the spirit, Mark (yes - I do know how to do a sidekick ;-) --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Jonathan D. Payne" To: "the_dojang" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: One Year 1st Dan Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:01:19 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Notice I did have three things in my post. Fighting skills would only be a subset of skill or ability. I am sure you would agree there is a marked difference between you as a 14 year old and today. Just as there would have been a difference in knowledge from a 3 year black belt and a one year black belt. There is more to being a black belt than fighting skill, at least I should hope there is. Rick Clark>> Rick, I never gave much thought to the spiritual side of the Martial Arts while studying TKD. Of course I was taught to be a good student, respectful to my elders, and not to start trouble. I could've learned all that in the Boy Scouts.:^) At the time I believed fighting skill justified the rank...I still think that is important. Maybe I'm missing the big picture, but I don't practice Martial Arts to be a better person. I have my religion for that. I practice the Martial Arts to survive. I don't pretend to be a warrior. I want an instructor who can fight and improve my fighting skills. I find it hard to learn from someone I can defeat. I'm not saying I can't learn from them, it just isn't easy. My day to day goal is to return home after my shift is over. Of course I have many tools to get the job done, but I believe the more tools I have the better off I will be. My partner studies BJJ, I can't whup him yet and learn something every time we're on the mat. Respectfully, Jon --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jonathan D. Payne" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:09:12 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Standards Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Humility, respect, eagerness to share knowledge, continuously trying to improve themselves, and a host of other attributes mean a lot more to me than a few fancy kicks or techniques.>> Master Rudy, Wow, great post! Gave me some things to study over. I'm not new to the Martial Arts by any stretch and my reasons for practicing haven't changed much over the years, but I do like what you wrote and will evaluate myself accordingly. Respectfully, Jon --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jonathan D. Payne" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:24:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One Year 1st Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig wrote: >>The young and determined can scale the food chain with a bit of rapidity. >> I do agree, but you could've left out "young" :^) It is amazing how far you can go with the proper motivation. Which was the point of my post regarding one year 1st Dans. I also must explain that I see a 1st Dan as an experienced beginner, nothing more nothing less. (this also describes myself) I don't think the "blackbelt" would have been such a big deal had it not been for T.V. Jon --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Denise" To: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:42:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: noisy Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As far as yelling at the dojang, we in hapkido do not go around yelling. Jere R. Hilland We in TSD (TKD, too, I think) tend to yell a LOT, and have on occasion been known to startle some of those HapKiDo folks :-)) Denise --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:46:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > an adult. The only common ground they share is that they are both Korean > martial arts. As far as yelling at the dojang, we in hapkido do not go > around yelling. Most of TKD's kicks are included in many styles of HKD. Many HKD dojangs yell, in the sense of a kihap. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:02:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My son is 6, and he said the risk of injury is too great. Is this common > practice? Do Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido share a common foundation? Yes, I'd say this is somewhat common. Some instructors do not want to teach HKD to the very young, so they start them out with TKD and later more them to HKD. This is perhaps more common in schools that primarily teach TKD with HKD as an add-on. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:41:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: GM Timmerman's Comment Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Timmerman wrote: "In any school, there are levels of competence among students. IMHO, less than stellar students may well have more heart than those who "look" the best." Hello Saja Nim. I lived this exact thing. My former Korean Grandmaster told me once, "you may not be the best martial artist here but you have the heart to persevere." As a mediocre/average martial artist I have sought out quality instruction for me and for my students and this is why I am forever grateful to have been accepted into NKMAA. Respectfully Master DeWitt --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:53:00 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net HKD kicks are quite different from TKD. Also, in my dojang we generally don't kihap with every strike, just when it is necessary, or when we do our breakfalls. I personally do not recomend HKD to anyone before they are at least 16 since it can be a very demanding art on the human body, especially since there are no forms and partners practice the techniques on each other...and there is supposed to be INTENT with the delivery. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 > > an adult. The only common ground they share is that they are both Korean > > martial arts. As far as yelling at the dojang, we in hapkido do not go > > around yelling. > > Most of TKD's kicks are included in many styles of HKD. > > Many HKD dojangs yell, in the sense of a kihap. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:26:06 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tittle and respect Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, Just gonna share my opinion. I believe in my heart, whatever someone's students call them started as a manner of showing respect, regardless of how odd it may sound to others. Especially in the case of someone that has expired, I don't see how it furthers the arts or the art that you or I may study to poke fun or demonstrates to our gups what respect is all about. My adult students have taken to calling me 800, as in "where does the 800 pound gorilla sit?" It's done respectfully and with a smile. It probably sounds as strange to a Korean TSD player as Kwan Jang Nim sounds to them but they really mean the same thing, the boss. My pre-teen and teen students call me MC (for Master Charles). In the south it is common to call adults that you know Mr. Charles implying warmth and respect intend to be conveyed at the same time. This too may seem odd to a traditional MDK player, but imagine what Richards Sabom sounds like to a north georgia native... Anyway, I have once again broken another soap box. Yours in Jung Do, MC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:20:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > HKD kicks are quite different from TKD. Also... IMHO, yes and no. As we know, Hapkido differs. What you say is apparently true for your Hapkido and it is true for my Hapkido. But if you look at a lot of Hapkido schools around the world (including in Korea) the kicks have become very similar. Yes, HKD will stress low kicks far more than will TKD, but that doesn't change the kick. The videotapes put out by KIM Nam-Jea in Seoul for the KHF are one example of how HKD's kicks have been influenced by TKD. When I asked Master Kim why his kicks differed so much from what he had learned from Gm Ji he replied that the kicks had changed due to the influence of TKD in Korea. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Frank Leonard" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] North vs. South Korea Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:41:02 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Question, Hopefully not controversial. Has a lot of modern TKD, etc. been developed in last 60 years or so. And if yes is there a similar thing going on in N. Korea that is not as well known in the west? Thanks Frank Leonard --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:57:25 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am sorry to differ, but the way that I have been taught is that in HKD all the kicks come from the same chamber. This keeps the deception of the kicks delivery. In TKD not all the kicks come from the same chamber...compare the side and roundhouse kicks in TKD, then look at the same kicks in HKD. I don't know how other schools teach their HKD kicks, but that is how I learned. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 > > HKD kicks are quite different from TKD. Also... > > IMHO, yes and no. As we know, Hapkido differs. > > What you say is apparently true for your Hapkido and it is true for my > Hapkido. But if you look at a lot of Hapkido schools around the world > (including in Korea) the kicks have become very similar. Yes, HKD will > stress low kicks far more than will TKD, but that doesn't change the kick. > > The videotapes put out by KIM Nam-Jea in Seoul for the KHF are one example > of how HKD's kicks have been influenced by TKD. When I asked Master Kim > why his kicks differed so much from what he had learned from Gm Ji he > replied that the kicks had changed due to the influence of TKD in Korea. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 18 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: One Year 1st Dan Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:23:38 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jon, > From: Jonathan D. Payne [mailto:payne1224@gt.rr.com] > >>Notice I did have three things in my post. Fighting skills would only > be a subset of skill or ability. I am sure you would agree there is a > marked difference between you as a 14 year old and today. Just as there > would have been a difference in knowledge from a 3 year black belt and a > one > year black belt. There is more to being a black belt than fighting skill, > at least I should hope there is. > > Rick Clark>> > > Rick, > I never gave much thought to the spiritual side of the Martial > Arts > while studying TKD. Of course I was taught to be a good student, > respectful > to my elders, and not to start trouble. I could've learned all that in > the > Boy Scouts.:^) Quite true, but then folks who get involved in martial arts may not have been in the boy scouts or other such organizations. > At the time I believed fighting skill justified the > rank...I still think that is important. Please note I do not say it's not important but I don't think it's the most important thing. > > Maybe I'm missing the big picture, but I don't practice Martial Arts to be > a better person. I have my religion for that. I practice the Martial > Arts to survive. I don't disagree with you here. Martial arts should not be a religion, but by its very nature you do learn things that are important and are of value to you. Such as respect for your fellow man. > > I don't pretend to be a warrior. I want an instructor who can fight and > improve my fighting skills. I find it hard to learn from someone I can > defeat. I'm not saying I can't learn from them, it just isn't easy. With that logic you would find any coach in a NBA, NFL etc. sport lacking in coaches. > > My day to day goal is to return home after my shift is over. Of course I > have many tools to get the job done, but I believe the more tools I have > the > better off I will be. My partner studies BJJ, I can't whup him yet and > learn > something every time we're on the mat. I agree you need a full set of clubs to play a round of golf. Rick Clark www.ao-denkouo-kai.org > > Respectfully, > Jon > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest